How is this a Db13??

[Fenix]

OK i am starting to have a little beef with some of these gospel pianists. I saw this chord and its supposed to be Db13

B-Eb-Gb-Bb. I realize this is an inversion with the b7 as the lowest note but wouldnt a Db15 look like this, still using the b7 as a bass: B-Db-F-Bb?? Why call it a Db13 if you have the 9 and the 11 there? Is this how to play a 13th chord, by adding the 9th and 11th notes?

[B3Wannabe]

OK i am starting to have a little beef with some of these gospel pianists. I saw this chord and its supposed to be Db13

B-Eb-Gb-Bb. I realize this is an inversion with the b7 as the lowest note but wouldnt a Db15 look like this, still using the b7 as a bass: B-Db-F-Bb?? Why call it a Db13 if you have the 9 and the 11 there? Is this how to play a 13th chord, by adding the 9th and 11th notes?

Was this the FULL chord?

If the bass note is Db, it would be a Db13 chord, although the proper way to spell it would be "Cb-Eb-Gb-Bb". It doesn't matter if you have to 9th and 11th in there.

A FULL Db13 chord would be spelled: Db-F-Ab-Cb-Eb-Gb-Bb

The 5th, 9th, and 11th are optional notes.

Hope this helps.

[BroAllan]

OK i am starting to have a little beef with some of these gospel pianists. I saw this chord and its supposed to be Db13

B-Eb-Gb-Bb. I realize this is an inversion with the b7 as the lowest note but wouldnt a Db15 look like this, still using the b7 as a bass: B-Db-F-Bb?? Why call it a Db13 if you have the 9 and the 11 there? Is this how to play a 13th chord, by adding the 9th and 11th notes?

Like our bro B3W said, if the bass note played is a Db, then it is a Db13 chord.  It's been my experience that  sometimes when people spell out a chord, for one reason or another, they leave out the bass note.  It can throw you off if you're not careful. 

Anyway, this is how I might play my "Db13" chord at times:  Db Ab / B Eb Gb Bb  ( 1-5 / 7-9-11-13)    God bless 

[Fenix]

OK now this all makes perfect sense. Thank you so much guys. I was a bit thrown off by he spelling, i'm still trying to get used to seeing inversions without the root note being added.

[musallio]

May I ask why it is not correct to say it is a B but instead, a Cb?

from my ltd understanding, each scale should have all the letters from A to G..
so, extrapolating from that, if I am using this in the key of F#, then it would be correct to say it's Cb..
But I don't understand why it is wrong to say it is a B...whether in the key of Db, B or any other key..

plz clarify.

[4hisglory]

Take a look at the scale.  While technically it is a B, you have  to call it a Cb.

Take a look that htis, it may help you understand.

http://www.learngospelmusic.com/ebooks/scale_degrees.pdf

[B3Wannabe]

May I ask why it is not correct to say it is a B but instead, a Cb?

from my ltd understanding, each scale should have all the letters from A to G..
so, extrapolating from that, if I am using this in the key of F#, then it would be correct to say it's Cb..
But I don't understand why it is wrong to say it is a B...whether in the key of Db, B or any other key..

plz clarify.

You answered your own question.

If you're in the key of F#, you'll have a B. If you in the key of Gb, you'll have a Cb. You can't have a Bb and a B. It'll be Bb and Cb.

[Fenix]

May I ask why it is not correct to say it is a B but instead, a Cb?

from my ltd understanding, each scale should have all the letters from A to G..
so, extrapolating from that, if I am using this in the key of F#, then it would be correct to say it's Cb..
But I don't understand why it is wrong to say it is a B...whether in the key of Db, B or any other key..

plz clarify.

Good question. The simplest answer is, it lies in the KEY SIGNATURE.
Its not that its wrong to say B instead of Cb, its just that you should call the note what it is in the context of the key signature you are in.

In fact, in F#, its not correct to call it a Cb cuz there are no flats in F#. The key signature of F# calls for 6 sharps and no flats. This is because you are raising EVERY NOTE a half step from the original F, not lowering it. Thus no flats and you should not technically call B a Cb when you are in any key signature that is based on a sharp.

The case is different when you have a key signature based on a flat. For example, Gb which is enharmonic (has the same notes) as F#. Even though they have the same notes, Gb is built off of flatting every note in the G major scale. Thus B would be called a Cb when you are in Gb scale cuz you had to "flatten" the C.

In summary, a note's name will change depending on the key signature and what you are building your scale from. I hope this kind of helps.

[musallio]

Hey Guys, thanx 4 the overwhelming responses..

That kind of clarified my cloud..so my question should realy have been:

what's the difference between a scale of F# which would have been built from the F scale (correct?) and the Gb scale, which would have been built from the G scale..

could it be that for the F#, we are ascending up the keyboard/piano ,& 4 the Gb, we are descending?
Right now, that is my guess/ how I help myself to understand it.

since U guys are so fast to respond, don't frown if I don't reply / thank U immediately..just that it's long past midnite here & I need 2 get some rest.

Thanx.

[T-Block]

so my question should realy have been:

what's the difference between a scale of F# which would have been built from the F scale (correct?) and the Gb scale, which would have been built from the G scale..

could it be that for the F#, we are ascending up the keyboard/piano ,& 4 the Gb, we are descending?
Right now, that is my guess/ how I help myself to understand it.

Try understanding it this way man.  When you start on a particular note, whether you name it with #'s or b's, you can only use each proceeding letter once.  That is how I would start off learning each scale.  Example:

F#

Go ahead and list all the letters from F to F:

F
G
A
B
C
D
E
F

Next, put in your starting and ending notes:

F#
G
A
B
C
D
E
F#

Then, use the major scale formula (W W H W W W H) to fill in the rest of the notes.  If you do it this way, you don't have a choice in what to call the notes cuz the scale formula will dictate that for you:

F#
whole step
G#
whole step
A#
half-step
B
whole step
C#
whole step
D#
whole step
E#
half-step
F#

I'll do Gb so that you can see that scale as well. 

Gb

List all the notes from G to G:

G
A
B
C
D
E
F
G

Put in your starting and ending notes:

Gb
A
B
C
D
E
F
Gb

Use the major scale formula to fill in the rest of the notes:

Gb
whole step
Ab
whole step
Bb
half-step
Cb
whole step
Db
whole step
Eb
whole step
F
half-step
Gb

[musallio]

Hey T-Block, thanx 4 that explanation...

I think you should put that response on the sticky...

I think I already undestood that though..
I think what I want to know is why have flats & sharps..is there a good reason 4 this?

Sorry I have to make U all dig into your music history books..just interested to know.

I remember last year when I was reading my sister's Alfred's book. It said that "flats are when you move down the piano & sharps are when you move up" {or something like that}..
Is this really the sole reason 4 the flats & sharps..2 know where to go around the piano?

[T-Block]

I think what I want to know is why have flats & sharps..is there a good reason 4 this?

Sorry I have to make U all dig into your music history books..just interested to know.

I remember last year when I was reading my sister's Alfred's book. It said that "flats are when you move down the piano & sharps are when you move up" {or something like that}..
Is this really the sole reason 4 the flats & sharps..2 know where to go around the piano?

Music history (or any history) was never/is not my strong point in school, LOL, but all I can tell you is the first civilization that wrote down their music way back used sharps and flats for various reasons.  So, we just took it and ran with it, LOL.

The black keys (& some white keys) are named with sharps going up the keyboard and named with flats coming down the keyboard.  That doesn't mean that you have go up the keyboard to use sharps or go down the keyboard to use flats.  Just know that each of those notes has at least 2 possible names and the one you use depends on what key you in, what scale you're playing, and/or what the chord formula is.  Does that answer you question?

[musallio]

I'm satisfied T-Block, thanx..

I've never really bothered whether I'm going up / down..i just play what sounds right

I think that was well answered..
will catch U guys l8a.

[rEaLiTy|cHecK]

not to step on any1's toes but...

that chord is actually a Db13+sus11... a Db13 by definition is a dominant chord, so the F# would have to have resolved to F... heance sus11

[musallio]

Hey Realityl Check, welcome to the RLGM.

I dn't know what my seniors here have to say about you stepping on their toes..
All I gotta say is: sharpen your WMR (Weapons of Mass Revolution) coz they'll come hard on U

[T-Block]

not to step on any1's toes but...

that chord is actually a Db13+sus11... a Db13 by definition is a dominant chord, so the F# would have to have resolved to F... heance sus11

You know what, I actually agree with this.  It doesn't sound like a true dominant 13th chord, it does sound like something is being suspended.  Thanks for clearing this up wit us man.

[musallio]

You know what, I actually agree with this.  It doesn't sound like a true dominant 13th chord, it does sound like something is being suspended.  Thanks for clearing this up wit us man.

hahahaha
some1 actually agreed with U
Normally there'll be a HUGE battle before every1 shakes hands..
I need to do more ear training to recognize all these chords.

[B3Wannabe]

Battle?

It's just a chord. LOL

[musallio]

Battle?

Sure.. U guys battle it out & i just observe by the sidelines until it cools down
some1 would be saying it's a Db7 #11/13 & some1 saying no it's a Db 13 sus11 add9 minus12   bcos of this & that..
But i enjoy it bcos U all give reasons 4 your answers

It's just a chord. LOL

YEP!
That's why I don't get too involved in the battle..so long as I can apply the chord in my playing.

[T-Block]

Battle?

It's just a chord. LOL

CO-SIGN!

some1 would be saying it's a Db7 #11/13 & some1 saying no it's a Db 13 sus11 add9 minus12   bcos of this & that..
But i enjoy it bcos U all give reasons 4 your answers

Some people are more anal about it than others.  As long as you have a convincing argument, I'm cool with "battling", LOL.