7th's Help

[Manofchrist101]

So as stated in an earlier thread i am trying to grow musically, and move beyond the basic chords.

So far i know:

1) Majors
2) Minors
3) Diminished
4) Augmented
5) Suspended
6) Dominant 7th
7) Major 7th
Some 6th chords


But i know there are several different types of 7th chords but i cant seem to make a rule of thumb to make them make sense!

I know a major 7th is (1,3,5,7)
I know dominant 7th is (1,3,5,b7)

I struggle with diminished 7ths because it seems like you flatten everything except the tonic, but a diminished chords is only a flattened 3rd and 5th, so why does a diminished 7th flatten the 3rd,5th and 7th?

Minor 7th?
Minor/major 7th?

Any others?


Is there some rule of thumb that i cam memorize for 7th chords?

Thanks and God Bless

[csedwards2]

I struggle with diminished 7ths because it seems like you flatten everything except the tonic, but a diminished chords is only a flattened 3rd and 5th, so why does a diminished 7th flatten the 3rd,5th and 7th?


Is there some rule of thumb that i cam memorize for 7th chords?

diminished 7th means you flatten everything except the root.

The rule of thumb, which you dont seem to be using, is that all chords come from the scales. When you realize the relation, these questions will al be answered

[smalls85s]

Another rule is:

If it sounds good then play it.  Figure out what its called later.

That only matters if you have a pre scripted set and you are told to play a seventh of some sort, but since you are trying to apply strict theory with reading and adding a little play by ear, a whole lot isn't going to make sense.  For example, some songs, or even chord progressions actually leave the key they started in, go around, and then come back.  If you're stuck trying to define each chord by the root key of the song, then you'll really be confused.

OK, now why stop at 7ths? What about the 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths? There are plenty of variations on those as well. Then you go to chords with a flatted or a sharp note thrown in.

The point is, you can learn music from a mathematical and logical view, but the farther you get you learn to let your ears tell you if something makes sense or not

[Manofchrist101]

An 11th is just a fancy way of playing a sus chord. Plus the average person's hands arent big enough for an 11th so they would just end up playing a sus chord anyway.


MAYBE most ppl can play a 9th but thats just a fancy 2 chord.
A 13th is just a fancy 6th chord, and again most ppl dont have hands big enough so they will just play a 6th.

Thats another reason why i find chord nomenclature insufficient.

They just find needlessly complicated ways to reintroduce the same concept

[Manofchrist101]

diminished 7th means you flatten everything except the root.

The rule of thumb, which you dont seem to be using, is that all chords come from the scales. When you realize the relation, these questions will al be answered

??????

What exactly are you saying im not using?

[T-Block]

An 11th is just a fancy way of playing a sus chord. Plus the average person's hands arent big enough for an 11th so they would just end up playing a sus chord anyway.


MAYBE most ppl can play a 9th but thats just a fancy 2 chord.
A 13th is just a fancy 6th chord, and again most ppl dont have hands big enough so they will just play a 6th.

The whole concept of it being an 11th chord (or any chord beyond 7th chords) means that the 7th is present. Also, you don't have to play all those notes. Many times notes are omitted, doubled or altered, but the core notes of the chord are there, so the name stands.

[csedwards2]

??????

What exactly are you saying im not using?

You're going to need to look at a keyboard to fully understand and know atleast the C major scale back and forward. With that said, half diminished 7th chords are built off the 7th degree of the scale.
In this case of C major, the 7th is B


Since there are no sharps or flats in C major, when you build a chord off the 7th degree,
skipping every other note to form the four-note chord gives you: B  D F  A

So technically (theory), you did not flatten D, or F; they are natural because of the scale you pulled the chord from. If you say to make a diminished chord I need to flatten this, flatten that, or something you are trying to turn a major chord into a diminished. Some people do it. Its another way to look at it. But its not based on the scales, which was my point.

[Docdb04]

The whole concept of it being an 11th chord (or any chord beyond 7th chords) means that the 7th is present. Also, you don't have to play all those notes. Many times notes are omitted, doubled or altered, but the core notes of the chord are there, so the name stands.

This.

[Manofchrist101]

The whole concept of it being an 11th chord (or any chord beyond 7th chords) means that the 7th is present. Also, you don't have to play all those notes. Many times notes are omitted, doubled or altered, but the core notes of the chord are there, so the name stands.

1, 3, 5 , 7, and 13??????

Whose hand is wide enough for that?

[Sillyie]

1, 3, 5 , 7, and 13??????

Whose hand is wide enough for that?
[/quote]

This is when different voicings come into play, especially when you are playing with a bass player. The bass player can play the root of the chord major of the chord ( in this case c major) and you can play the a B dominate 7. If you do not have a bass player you are still able to omit or do  not duplicate the same keys in both hands as were stated in earlier posts. Break down your chords so that you can understand them. Also in the numbers game  2 = 9, 4= 11, 6=13.

P.s. any correction to this post if needed is appreciated, I am still learning

[jonesl78]

Technically, to properly name an extended chord, you only need the 3,7, and extented note.
example,

 C13    b7,3,13      Bb, E, A

  C9       3,b7,9       E, Bb, D

C7#9    3,b7, #9      E,Bb, D#

C7         3, b7          E, Bb

C11       3, b7, 11      E,Bb,F      <--- you will probably never see this chord. Third is usually omitted

In addition, you will probably rarely play an extended chord such as a 13th chord and play every note. I dont think I have ever played a full 13th chord.

Tip: When trying to learn new voicing/chords for a song, play the root note with your pinky in your left hand  and play the melody note with the pinky in your right hand. Then simply fill in the rest and use your ear as the judge FIRST. Then, try to name the chord.

[T-Block]

1, 3, 5 , 7, and 13??????

Whose hand is wide enough for that?

Remember that you have 2 hands. Don't think of it as you only play chords with your RH and bass notes with your LH (or vice versa). Think of both hands as a unit and split the notes up between both hands. Your LH can play the root and the 7th, while your RH takes care of the rest of the chord.

Technically, to properly name an extended chord, you only need the 3,7, and extented note.
example,

 C13    b7,3,13      Bb, E, A

  C9       3,b7,9       E, Bb, D

C7#9    3,b7, #9      E,Bb, D#

C7         3, b7          E, Bb

C11       3, b7, 11      E,Bb,F      <--- you will probably never see this chord. Third is usually omitted

In addition, you will probably rarely play an extended chord such as a 13th chord and play every note. I dont think I have ever played a full 13th chord.

Tip: When trying to learn new voicing/chords for a song, play the root note with your pinky in your left hand  and play the melody note with the pinky in your right hand. Then simply fill in the rest and use your ear as the judge FIRST. Then, try to name the chord.

And all of that!