When adapting new songs for the Praise team, do you usually...

[betnich]

     I guess this question is more for smaller Praise Teams and Choirs, since more advanced groups would probably have the personnel to do the high Tenor leads and ripping inst. solos heard on many recent Praise/Worship songs.

      Also, do you tend to simplify the choral parts or structure (that is, leave out the fancy intros, Bridge, instrumentals, 2nd/3rd vamps, etc.) of a song?

[sjonathan02]

     I guess this question is more for smaller Praise Teams and Choirs, since more advanced groups would probably have the personnel to do the high Tenor leads and ripping inst. solos heard on many recent Praise/Worship songs.

      Also, do you tend to simplify the choral parts or structure (that is, leave out the fancy intros, Bridge, instrumentals, 2nd/3rd vamps, etc.) of a song?

My P&W leader will do a song by. the. book. (even though we, now, have a musician).


She can't count the measures for vamps and intros, so she works best doing the song as she knows it.



I do it differently. Well, I will. It'll be my first time working with our new musician by myself in the next few weeks.

[jgause2]

I try to only choose songs that fit the group.  I know their strengths and weaknesses, and while I try to work on their weaknesses, there are some songs, and some notes that they just shouldn't sing.   So yeah, I may alter a song by a half-step or so,  or I may alter their individual parts, if i deem that its too difficult for them to catch on.

I try not to change songs too much (like dropping 2 or 3 keys, or leaving out half the song)....it wont be the same.  So it just kinda depends on the group, and the song that you sing.

[JoanHall]

I frequently change things in songs, sometimes to adapt to the abilities of the choir, sometimes because there's a particular part of the song that I don't like, sometimes because I just get an idea ("Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we . . .").

When it comes to changing keys or parts, just like jgause2 said, you have to have an ear for what the song will sound like if you change it drastically.  What element of the music in that particular song gives it its power?  If the song's strong point is a beautifully crafted melody line, it might work fine if you simplify the parts or sing it in unison.  But if counterpoint is really important to the song, then it would be better to just not sing it than to take the counterpoint away.  And a song that uses inspiring high notes to drive home the power of the lyrics will not be as effective if you drop the key too much.

We have a lot of songs in our choir repertoire that we do one whole step lower than the original recording.  Any further than that and you're talking about a major revision of the song which should be done with care.

[betnich]

Yes, it seems easier to change praise team songs than choir numbers - I can tell the choir parts would have to be inverted/changed if the key went too far up or down. But it seems all too many of the current P/W genre is done by some high high tenor (Chris Tomlin or Israel Houghton/Kirk Franklin types) and there is no hope of most in the congregation to sing those extreme notes. So Pastors and worship leaders often ask for the key to be brought down...

[sjonathan02]

Yes, it seems easier to change praise team songs than choir numbers - I can tell the choir parts would have to be inverted/changed if the key went too far up or down. But it seems all too many of the current P/W genre is done by some high high tenor (Chris Tomlin or Israel Houghton/Kirk Franklin types) and there is no hope of most in the congregation to sing those extreme notes. So Pastors and worship leaders often ask for the key to be brought down...

See, I say this all the time. Know the congregation and find/arrange songs that fit the PW team as well as the congregation.

I think the bigger issue is teaching the newly arranged song to your team because they may be used to singing the original version of the song. 

[LaylaMonroe]

See, I say this all the time. Know the congregation and find/arrange songs that fit the PW team as well as the congregation.

I think the bigger issue is teaching the newly arranged song to your team because they may be used to singing the original version of the song. 

That's the perspective from which I can speak.  I've never been a P&W leader, but I've been on many P&W teams.  I can't stand it when they change the song.  For one, what the lead thinks is "cool" may not be so cool.  Secondly, a lot of times, they take out parts that really make the song.  Or sometimes, it just doesn't make sense.

I'm one of those people that once I get stuck on something, I'm just stuck on it.  I can't stand it when I know a song inside out and the P&W leader teaches it differently or changes it. I have a really hard time re-learning it.

[sjonathan02]

I'm one of those people that once I get stuck on something, I'm just stuck on it.  I can't stand it when I know a song inside out and the P&W leader teaches it differently or changes it. I have a really hard time re-learning it.

Yea, that happened to us last week. We're still getting used to having a musician so we tried a song that's a staple at my church, 'Here I am to worship'.


Now, it's not that our musician doesn't know the song, we just couldn't seem to find the key in which we're used to singing it.


I swore the key was 'E' but my P/W leader wasn't hearing (or ignoring me ).


Anyway, we had to scrap the song. 

[LaylaMonroe]

Yea, that happened to us last week. We're still getting used to having a musician so we tried a song that's a staple at my church, 'Here I am to worship'.


Now, it's not that our musician doesn't know the song, we just couldn't seem to find the key in which we're used to singing it.


I swore the key was 'E' but my P/W leader wasn't hearing (or ignoring me ).


Anyway, we had to scrap the song. 

I have that problem all the time (not at my current church bc I'm not on the PT, but generally speaking...).  I have a very trained ear, but no musical skill.  So, I can tell when it's in a different key from what was originally taught or from what is recorded, but I couldn't tell you what the right key is... I could sing it if everyone is quiet for a minute to let me hear it in my head... lol... but usually, people don't listen to me anyway since I'm not musical.  So I just sit there for 10 minutes while they try to find it, and then they end up exactly where I tried to tell them to go. LOL

Blah.

I try to stick to administration. LOL

[sjonathan02]

I have that problem all the time (not at my current church bc I'm not on the PT, but generally speaking...).  I have a very trained ear, but no musical skill.  So, I can tell when it's in a different key from what was originally taught or from what is recorded, but I couldn't tell you what the right key is... I could sing it if everyone is quiet for a minute to let me hear it in my head... lol... but usually, people don't listen to me anyway since I'm not musical.  So I just sit there for 10 minutes while they try to find it, and then they end up exactly where I tried to tell them to go. LOL

Blah.

I try to stick to administration. LOL

My P/W leader (who is also the FL) and I have a different approach to music ministry and strong personalities so we clash a lot.


We do our best not to do it in front of the team because when she's not there, I'm the P/W leader so it's not a good look.


We both know when something isn't in the correct key. The difference is I tend to remember what key a song is in and who's supposed to sing what. So, while she's struggling to find the correct notes, I'm humming my part or singing it (and the other parts) in my head. But, I try to stay in my lane so that I don't appear to be 'taking over'. 


Thursdays are always interesting.

[LaylaMonroe]

My P/W leader (who is also the FL) and I have a different approach to music ministry and strong personalities so we clash a lot.


We do our best not to do it in front of the team because when she's not there, I'm the P/W leader so it's not a good look.


We both know when something isn't in the correct key. The difference is I tend to remember what key a song is in and who's supposed to sing what. So, while she's struggling to find the correct notes, I'm humming my part or singing it (and the other parts) in my head. But, I try to stay in my lane so that I don't appear to be 'taking over'. 


Thursdays are always interesting.

That's usually where I go wrong... lol.  And it's one of the main reasons I don't do choirs and PTs anymore. It's hard for me to sit there for 10 minutes or more while someone tries to figure out what I could've told them in 10 seconds.

Another issue I had with a PT leader, bless his heart - he's a dear friend of mine, but to save the friendship, I had to step down from the PT - is changing parts.... hmmm... not sure if I can explain this.  But, he'd drop the key to a song (to make it comfortable for him), but instead of teaching the sopranos the soprano part, he'd have us singing the tenor part in an octave higher, and then reassign the other parts accordingly.  This would throw me off so terribly because the tenor melody is different (again, not sure if I'm explaining it right).  So, I'd be singing what makes sense theoretically, but then it'd clash with the other vocalists (and with him because he's trying to teach it differently).  Or it would be a song where the sopranos are singing the melody, but he'd teach it with the altos singing melody and the sopranos/tenors harmonizing, but the soprano parts wouldn't make sense...

Whew... I feel tense just talking about it. LOL

[JoanHall]

So, I'd be singing what makes sense theoretically, but then it'd clash with the other vocalists (and with him because he's trying to teach it differently).  Or it would be a song where the sopranos are singing the melody, but he'd teach it with the altos singing melody and the sopranos/tenors harmonizing, but the soprano parts wouldn't make sense...

Was it a problem for you simply because he would change the song from the original, or was the problem that the changes he made were musically flawed?  If he had done revisions that made musical sense would you have had an easier time adapting?

[LaylaMonroe]

Was it a problem for you simply because he would change the song from the original, or was the problem that the changes he made were musically flawed?  If he had done revisions that made musical sense would you have had an easier time adapting?

Understand that that's a difficult question for me to answer since I don't know the first thing about music.  I just have an ear.

I guess the easiest, most honest answer is that both were problems for me.  I don't really like changing songs from the original (unless it's a key change because the song is impossibly high) or unless the director is adding something hot or taking away something lame.  But I can make myself submit in those situations, realizing that I'm not in charge, so I have to go with whatever is put on my plate.

On the other hand, when the changes are flawed or don't make sense, it's not even that I don't like it, it's that I have a hard time learning it and retaining it.  So yeah, I guess if the changes made sense, I could certainly adapt easier, whether I agreed with the changes or not.

I always teach that when you're a part of the team (not the team lead), you don't have to agree, you just have to do it, and do it with a smile.

[sjonathan02]

That's usually where I go wrong... lol.  And it's one of the main reasons I don't do choirs and PTs anymore. It's hard for me to sit there for 10 minutes or more while someone tries to figure out what I could've told them in 10 seconds.

Another issue I had with a PT leader, bless his heart - he's a dear friend of mine, but to save the friendship, I had to step down from the PT - is changing parts.... hmmm... not sure if I can explain this.  But, he'd drop the key to a song (to make it comfortable for him), but instead of teaching the sopranos the soprano part, he'd have us singing the tenor part in an octave higher, and then reassign the other parts accordingly.  This would throw me off so terribly because the tenor melody is different (again, not sure if I'm explaining it right).  So, I'd be singing what makes sense theoretically, but then it'd clash with the other vocalists (and with him because he's trying to teach it differently).  Or it would be a song where the sopranos are singing the melody, but he'd teach it with the altos singing melody and the sopranos/tenors harmonizing, but the soprano parts wouldn't make sense...

Whew... I feel tense just talking about it. LOL

Yea, I don't think I'm feelin' that, either. Either change the key OR rearrange the song.

To do both is overkill, imho.

[LaylaMonroe]

Yea, I don't think I'm feelin' that, either. Either change the key OR rearrange the song.

To do both is overkill, imho.

Dude... how's this for a coincidence. Please go add me on FB (Leah LaRue) and look at the comments in my current status! LOL!!! Unbelievable. The very guy I was referring to in this thread actually admitted out of the clear blue that he was a sucky PT leader! LOL!!!!!! Hilarious!!!!!

That's my buddy, though, so it's all good... but I'm not gonna let him live this one down! LOL

[sjonathan02]

Dude... how's this for a coincidence. Please go add me on FB (Leah LaRue) and look at the comments in my current status! LOL!!! Unbelievable. The very guy I was referring to in this thread actually admitted out of the clear blue that he was a sucky PT leader! LOL!!!!!! Hilarious!!!!!

That's my buddy, though, so it's all good... but I'm not gonna let him live this one down! LOL

Done!!

You know what, though? I appreciate his transparency. There are days when I wish my PT leader would just say 'You know ya'll, I'm flyin' by the seat of my pants today.'


That I could respect. 

[LaylaMonroe]

Done!!

You know what, though? I appreciate his transparency. There are days when I wish my PT leader would just say 'You know ya'll, I'm flyin' by the seat of my pants today.'


That I could respect. 

I don't see the add request? 

But yeah, I'm really gonna rib him later on.  He gave us serious "Hades" during those rehearsals.  One time, he taught us the wrong words to a song I had been singing for YEARS... so I had a really hard time with one word and apparently, I was throwing everyone else off.  So, he told us if we said that word one more time (I don't even remember what it was), we'd have to take 5 laps around the sanctuary repeating the correct words.  Of course, I messed it up, and he was true to his word.

So while we're doing the laps (by this time, I'm in hysterical laughter bc I couldn't believe I was really taking laps around the sanctuary during rehearsal), I'm still messing up the words and everyone is cracking up and he's getting angrier and angrier...

Let's just say THAT rehearsal did not end well. LOL

That's just one of many stories. He really gave us a very hard time, and all of us had more experience in P&W than he did, so that made him feel very insecure and caused him to overcompensate.

[sjonathan02]

I don't see the add request? 

But yeah, I'm really gonna rib him later on.  He gave us serious "Hades" during those rehearsals.  One time, he taught us the wrong words to a song I had been singing for YEARS... so I had a really hard time with one word and apparently, I was throwing everyone else off.  So, he told us if we said that word one more time (I don't even remember what it was), we'd have to take 5 laps around the sanctuary repeating the correct words.  Of course, I messed it up, and he was true to his word.

So while we're doing the laps (by this time, I'm in hysterical laughter bc I couldn't believe I was really taking laps around the sanctuary during rehearsal), I'm still messing up the words and everyone is cracking up and he's getting angrier and angrier...

Let's just say THAT rehearsal did not end well. LOL

That's just one of many stories. He really gave us a very hard time, and all of us had more experience in P&W than he did, so that made him feel very insecure and caused him to overcompensate.

OMG, this story made me LOL! 

[under13]

laps around the church? I dont even do laps around the track  

[vwebster]

Laps???

Now, that's hilarious!!!