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Author Topic: I want to learn how to give choir parts  (Read 6375 times)

Skizo Frene

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I want to learn how to give choir parts
« on: November 24, 2009, 10:36:17 AM »
I've been playing keys and Organ for a few years now and I want to learn how to give a choir their parts.

Can someone please give me the basic theory on how to do this?  If you have any resources (books, DVDs) to recommend that would be awesome as well.

A suggestion: Having a thread that details this theory might make a good sticky.

Thanks in advance!



Note: As you vets know, this is Rjthakid/Incog.  I am not a n00b.   :)

Offline under13

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 10:53:46 AM »
lol at the disclaimer.
I wanna know the same thing, I'm gonna ask my MOM to teach me.

I think most people will say that you just have to listen to the recording for the s-a-t notes....

Skizo Frene

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 11:09:19 AM »
lol at the disclaimer.
I wanna know the same thing, I'm gonna ask my MOM to teach me.

I think most people will say that you just have to listen to the recording for the s-a-t notes....

I'm sure you would have to listen to each recording to hear the nuances of what every part is doing.

Still, there must be some theory.  Some basic principles.

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 11:37:57 AM »
I'm sure you would have to listen to each recording to hear the nuances of what every part is doing.

Still, there must be some theory.  Some basic principles.

VT is probably better suited to tackle this question; however, I'll give it a try.



Simply put, choir parts aren't much different from the harmony found in the music (i.e. 1-4-5; 1-2; 1-5).


For example, play 'Now behold the Lamb'. That first chord is the voicing for the choir (say, Bb-Sop; F-Alto; D-Tenor) then moves in an inversion and rests on the five.


The trick is a lot of composers will put in different vocal movements between the main chords (much like playing a lick on the keyboard or organ).





As stated, VT is probably better suited for this. It kinda looks like I'm rambling a bit.

The best advice I can give is, if you can hear all that intricate piano/organ movement, you can find the vocal movement as well.  :)
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Offline kodacolor

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 11:48:23 AM »
Note: As you vets know, this is Rjthakid/Incog.  I am not a n00b.   :)

You could have at LEAST let Fenix guess before you revealed yourself.  (lol...j/k)

I have a theory on the theory but since I don't really know theory I probably shouldn't post my theory...however I wanna see if my theory is right.  ;D


There is a relationship between chords and harmony parts.  Take the "C" chord for example.

C-E-G

The "C" is tenors cause it's the lowest note
The "E" is altos cause it's in the middle
The "G" is sopranos cause it's the highest note
(Granted all three part harmonies don't pan out like this, but most of them do)

First, I find the melody.  By listening to the song I determine which harmony part has the melody.  If the tenors have the melody I know that I will be going to the right of the piano to get the other two harmonies.  If the altos have the melody I know that one harmony will be on the left, the other on the right.  If the sopranos have the melody I know that I will find the other two parts at the left of the keyboard.

Offline jonesl78

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 11:59:47 AM »
The only basic theory to know is chord structure and there inversions. When transcribing choir harmony by ear you'll learn little things like "process of elimination." For example, in Eb major, if your tenors are singing Eb and the altos are singing G, more than likely the sopranos will be singing Bb. Also, play the harmony parts along with the song to see how it sounds with the recording. Overall, just listen to each part separately and try to pick it out.

There isn't any theory formula that I am aware of since music composition is subjective to the creator and listener. If you go back to the Eb major example, one artist can choose to make the altos suspend (i.e. EbAbBb) while another artist may choose to have the sopranos sing an octave above the tenors. (i.e EbGEb) You have to actually listen to the recording to transcribe what the exact harmony is for the vocals. The other method of figuring out the choir parts is to simply obtain the sheet music.

http://pdfdatabase.com/index.php?q=lead+sheet+total+praise

Skizo Frene

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2009, 02:11:21 PM »
VT is probably better suited to tackle this question; however, I'll give it a try.

Simply put, choir parts aren't much different from the harmony found in the music (i.e. 1-4-5; 1-2; 1-5).

For example, play 'Now behold the Lamb'. That first chord is the voicing for the choir (say, Bb-Sop; F-Alto; D-Tenor) then moves in an inversion and rests on the five.

The trick is a lot of composers will put in different vocal movements between the main chords (much like playing a lick on the keyboard or organ).


As stated, VT is probably better suited for this. It kinda looks like I'm rambling a bit.

The best advice I can give is, if you can hear all that intricate piano/organ movement, you can find the vocal movement as well.  :)


The only basic theory to know is chord structure and there inversions. When transcribing choir harmony by ear you'll learn little things like "process of elimination." For example, in Eb major, if your tenors are singing Eb and the altos are singing G, more than likely the sopranos will be singing Bb. Also, play the harmony parts along with the song to see how it sounds with the recording. Overall, just listen to each part separately and try to pick it out.

There isn't any theory formula that I am aware of since music composition is subjective to the creator and listener. If you go back to the Eb major example, one artist can choose to make the altos suspend (i.e. EbAbBb) while another artist may choose to have the sopranos sing an octave above the tenors. (i.e EbGEb) You have to actually listen to the recording to transcribe what the exact harmony is for the vocals. The other method of figuring out the choir parts is to simply obtain the sheet music.

http://pdfdatabase.com/index.php?q=lead+sheet+total+praise


Taking notes over here...

Offline vtguy84

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2009, 02:28:07 PM »
Let me be honest about me.....I can just hear them very well.  The theory behind choir chords are just like any chords for music.

For tricky songs or songs that are hard to hear.  I chart out the notes, one section at a time.  I then play the chords to make sure that nothing clashes.

For me, it's truly gifting. I'm sorry.
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Skizo Frene

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2009, 02:33:52 PM »
Let me be honest about me.....I can just hear them very well.  The theory behind choir chords are just like any chords for music.

For tricky songs or songs that are hard to hear.  I chart out the notes, one section at a time.  I then play the chords to make sure that nothing clashes.

For me, it's truly gifting. I'm sorry.

Nothing to apologize for.   :)

Offline under13

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2009, 02:38:20 PM »
RJ try listening to music more carefully. Thats what I'm currently doing.So when a song is playing instead of the melody, I sing the harmony...or attempt to. Also, I during church I sometimes will play what the altos sing, instead of keeping the melody on top. Right now i'm just trying to get used to hearing these harmonies. I hope its working.

Skizo Frene

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2009, 02:40:07 PM »
RJ try listening to music more carefully. Thats what I'm currently doing.So when a song is playing instead of the melody, I sing the harmony...or attempt to. Also, I during church I sometimes will play what the altos sing, instead of keeping the melody on top. Right now i'm just trying to get used to hearing these harmonies. I hope its working.

I'm going to try this.  I'm also looking for some kind of resource material.

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2009, 02:42:04 PM »
I'm going to try this.  I'm also looking for some kind of resource material.


I think Jamal Hartwell has some stuff; or, Jermaine Griggs.
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline betnich

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2009, 02:44:22 PM »
RJ try listening to music more carefully. Thats what I'm currently doing.So when a song is playing instead of the melody, I sing the harmony...or attempt to. Also, I during church I sometimes will play what the altos sing, instead of keeping the melody on top. Right now i'm just trying to get used to hearing these harmonies. I hope its working.

It's like singing lead or harmonies...The more you do it, the better you get...

Skizo Frene

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2009, 02:46:04 PM »

I think Jamal Hartwell has some stuff; or, Jermaine Griggs.

!!!!!  Really?!?!?!  I'll look into that.

Skizo Frene

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2009, 03:26:21 PM »

I think Jamal Hartwell has some stuff; or, Jermaine Griggs.

No dice.   :(

Offline under13

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2009, 04:06:45 PM »
No dice.   :(

yeah I havent seen one from them. Check Ntimemusic.com, they might have something

Offline csedwards2

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2009, 04:40:47 AM »
The main thing about choir parts is to play triads. Major triads are THE MOST POPULAR, and then minor triads. Diminished are less popular, as are sus chords. Dominant chords with extensions are extremely hard to do, and you wont see these unless you're transcribing parts from some really advanced choir, or Take 6. See VT about those.

I should also mention the concept of knowing all your diatonic triads. Diatonic means from the key.
So if you're in E, its a triad built off of every note in the E major scale. A Triad is just 3 notes where each is a 3rd apart. either major 3rd or minor 3rd. In E, there are 4 sharps, (F#, C#, G#, D#)

EG#B, F#AC#, G#BD#, AC#E, BD#F#, C#EG#, D#F#A
(play them through a few times and get um under your fingers .)

Listen to a song from beginning to end a few times, and Identify which parts of the song are strictly unison, and which might sound like you have another part at the same time. Most often, songs will have a ton of unison sections, and just a few parts. Probably more songs have more harmony, and a little unison. And some have an even mix.

Now Koda was right on it when she said, find out which part has the melody. Said another way......Who is leading the song? Israel, Fred Hammond, Norman Hutchins, Tonex?!!!! lol

If you know that persons voice, thats half the battle. Israel is an alto. In his songs, if he is leading them, look for the Alto to have the melody, remember they said that in Delaware.

Learn the melody
Learn the melody
Learn the melody

Your parts, for the most part will be major triads, especially when you're in a major key. So try a major triad that fits the key you're in, and the music. Listen to the original and check yourself. If you can play the melody with triads, thats what your choir or praise team will be doing. Spend your time only on harmony sections. Like if you start teaching the song, teach that first. So learn that part first. Its human tendency to sing with the lead/melody, so if they know the song, thats the part they'll learn easiest.

If you dont have the parts yet, listen some more, and see if you can hear clearly another note above or below the melody. If you heard it from a voice, its probably correct. add it to the melody together, and see what triad goes with those two notes.

So you're in E. You have heard a C# and an E. Then by theory of knowing all your diatonic chords in the key of E major, you know the missing note is an A, as in Amajor. AC#E. Now you have an A triad in the voices, doesnt mean you will have the bass guitar hanging on an A, while you play the chord. Your right hand is now playing the melody. That includes the main chords, and PASSING chords, or chords in between two main chords.

*****Notice***** with a C# and an E sounding in the voices, you could have said it was a G# for the last note. BBBBUUUUUUUTTTT, that would be a minor triad. Only explore minor triads after you've tried the obvious major choice, first. Unless you just hear it, of course, like VT.

You're still in E. You have heard a F# and a D#. Then from knowing those diatonic chords, and knowing you are supposed to try major triads first, then you know the last note is probably a B. BD#F#. If you would have chosen A as your last note, as in D#F#A, that'd be diminished which isnt very popular. Its that easy. And remember, these are voices. So you're movements will likely be small movements, so theres good voice leading to the next note for almost everybody. If theres a big movement down or up, it will likely be an inversion.

Go listen to a choir song, you know. Come back with questions. Time for me to get ready for work. Also if you can remind me, cause I rarely come here. I was just doing a search

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2009, 06:28:22 AM »
The main thing about choir parts is to play triads. Major triads are THE MOST POPULAR, and then minor triads. Diminished are less popular, as are sus chords. Dominant chords with extensions are extremely hard to do, and you wont see these unless you're transcribing parts from some really advanced choir, or Take 6. See VT about those.

I should also mention the concept of knowing all your diatonic triads. Diatonic means from the key.
So if you're in E, its a triad built off of every note in the E major scale. A Triad is just 3 notes where each is a 3rd apart. either major 3rd or minor 3rd. In E, there are 4 sharps, (F#, C#, G#, D#)

EG#B, F#AC#, G#BD#, AC#E, BD#F#, C#EG#, D#F#A
(play them through a few times and get um under your fingers .)

Listen to a song from beginning to end a few times, and Identify which parts of the song are strictly unison, and which might sound like you have another part at the same time. Most often, songs will have a ton of unison sections, and just a few parts. Probably more songs have more harmony, and a little unison. And some have an even mix.

Now Koda was right on it when she said, find out which part has the melody. Said another way......Who is leading the song? Israel, Fred Hammond, Norman Hutchins, Tonex?!!!! lol

If you know that persons voice, thats half the battle. Israel is an alto. In his songs, if he is leading them, look for the Alto to have the melody, remember they said that in Delaware.

Learn the melody
Learn the melody
Learn the melody

Your parts, for the most part will be major triads, especially when you're in a major key. So try a major triad that fits the key you're in, and the music. Listen to the original and check yourself. If you can play the melody with triads, thats what your choir or praise team will be doing. Spend your time only on harmony sections. Like if you start teaching the song, teach that first. So learn that part first. Its human tendency to sing with the lead/melody, so if they know the song, thats the part they'll learn easiest.

If you dont have the parts yet, listen some more, and see if you can hear clearly another note above or below the melody. If you heard it from a voice, its probably correct. add it to the melody together, and see what triad goes with those two notes.

So you're in E. You have heard a C# and an E. Then by theory of knowing all your diatonic chords in the key of E major, you know the missing note is an A, as in Amajor. AC#E. Now you have an A triad in the voices, doesnt mean you will have the bass guitar hanging on an A, while you play the chord. Your right hand is now playing the melody. That includes the main chords, and PASSING chords, or chords in between two main chords.

*****Notice***** with a C# and an E sounding in the voices, you could have said it was a G# for the last note. BBBBUUUUUUUTTTT, that would be a minor triad. Only explore minor triads after you've tried the obvious major choice, first. Unless you just hear it, of course, like VT.

You're still in E. You have heard a F# and a D#. Then from knowing those diatonic chords, and knowing you are supposed to try major triads first, then you know the last note is probably a B. BD#F#. If you would have chosen A as your last note, as in D#F#A, that'd be diminished which isnt very popular. Its that easy. And remember, these are voices. So you're movements will likely be small movements, so theres good voice leading to the next note for almost everybody. If theres a big movement down or up, it will likely be an inversion.

Go listen to a choir song, you know. Come back with questions. Time for me to get ready for work. Also if you can remind me, cause I rarely come here. I was just doing a search

Yep, this. :)
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Skizo Frene

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2009, 07:54:11 AM »
The main thing about choir parts is to play triads. Major triads are THE MOST POPULAR, and then minor triads. Diminished are less popular, as are sus chords. Dominant chords with extensions are extremely hard to do, and you wont see these unless you're transcribing parts from some really advanced choir, or Take 6. See VT about those.

I should also mention the concept of knowing all your diatonic triads. Diatonic means from the key.
So if you're in E, its a triad built off of every note in the E major scale. A Triad is just 3 notes where each is a 3rd apart. either major 3rd or minor 3rd. In E, there are 4 sharps, (F#, C#, G#, D#)

EG#B, F#AC#, G#BD#, AC#E, BD#F#, C#EG#, D#F#A
(play them through a few times and get um under your fingers .)

Listen to a song from beginning to end a few times, and Identify which parts of the song are strictly unison, and which might sound like you have another part at the same time. Most often, songs will have a ton of unison sections, and just a few parts. Probably more songs have more harmony, and a little unison. And some have an even mix.

Now Koda was right on it when she said, find out which part has the melody. Said another way......Who is leading the song? Israel, Fred Hammond, Norman Hutchins, Tonex?!!!! lol

If you know that persons voice, thats half the battle. Israel is an alto. In his songs, if he is leading them, look for the Alto to have the melody, remember they said that in Delaware.

Learn the melody
Learn the melody
Learn the melody

Your parts, for the most part will be major triads, especially when you're in a major key. So try a major triad that fits the key you're in, and the music. Listen to the original and check yourself. If you can play the melody with triads, thats what your choir or praise team will be doing. Spend your time only on harmony sections. Like if you start teaching the song, teach that first. So learn that part first. Its human tendency to sing with the lead/melody, so if they know the song, thats the part they'll learn easiest.

If you dont have the parts yet, listen some more, and see if you can hear clearly another note above or below the melody. If you heard it from a voice, its probably correct. add it to the melody together, and see what triad goes with those two notes.

So you're in E. You have heard a C# and an E. Then by theory of knowing all your diatonic chords in the key of E major, you know the missing note is an A, as in Amajor. AC#E. Now you have an A triad in the voices, doesnt mean you will have the bass guitar hanging on an A, while you play the chord. Your right hand is now playing the melody. That includes the main chords, and PASSING chords, or chords in between two main chords.

*****Notice***** with a C# and an E sounding in the voices, you could have said it was a G# for the last note. BBBBUUUUUUUTTTT, that would be a minor triad. Only explore minor triads after you've tried the obvious major choice, first. Unless you just hear it, of course, like VT.

You're still in E. You have heard a F# and a D#. Then from knowing those diatonic chords, and knowing you are supposed to try major triads first, then you know the last note is probably a B. BD#F#. If you would have chosen A as your last note, as in D#F#A, that'd be diminished which isnt very popular. Its that easy. And remember, these are voices. So you're movements will likely be small movements, so theres good voice leading to the next note for almost everybody. If theres a big movement down or up, it will likely be an inversion.

Go listen to a choir song, you know. Come back with questions. Time for me to get ready for work. Also if you can remind me, cause I rarely come here. I was just doing a search

Man, if I eva see you again, I owe you $5 for this.

This is great.

Offline vtguy84

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Re: I want to learn how to give choir parts
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 10:20:56 AM »
Thank you twin for this!
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