What would you say???

[tobiustobi1]

The Pastor of the Church where I am at as Musician/ Minister of Music, wants an extra rehearsal day.  My thing is, I really don't feel we need one--they can get there 15-30 minutes earlier to review the music.  We start service at 10a, but we rehearse from about 9:00am to about 9:40am.  For what we do, that is ample enough time.  They get cd's quarterly of all the songs...and they receive emails as to what songlist will be for that upcoming service.  I personally think that works fine--GOOD ENOUGH!

HERE IS MY PROBLEM.  I work a job outside of church and my weekends are "my time" to get MYSELF together, personally.  It's my time; enough said!  So the Pastor wants like a Saturday rehearsal once a month to learn these new songs....but we don't need that, we are fine like we are!

I still didn't give you the real problem...ok, I am given an honorarium for the services provided to the church.  Well, with all thee economic crunch we're in...I try to manage everything properly--funds included!

First off, I really don't want to do this (extra rehearsal).  Secondly, I simply CANNOT do this for free! 

Someone mentioned in another post here, that they charge more for rehearsals than they do for actual Service days because of the work and effort (parts etc).

What would you say for my behalf?  Thanks in advance for your responses and replies.

[sjonathan02]

So, you want more money if you're going to take on this task?


Have you asked your pastor about it? If not, why not?


Perhaps, for your pastor (you know, the guy who's the head of the church who answers directly to God as to the state and condition of His people) 'GOOD ENOUGH' isn't as good as you think it is? 


You'll get all kinds of different responses but at the end of the day, you've got to decide if you can handle the extra responsibility. Ministry means sacrifice at times, MOST times, in fact. Can you handle that?


If not, you and your pastor may need to part ways.


Communication is key. Be Blessed.

[LaylaMonroe]

Perhaps, for your pastor (you know, the guy who's the head of the church who answers directly to God as to the state and condition of His people) 'GOOD ENOUGH' isn't as good as you think it is? 

That ^^^^^ is the first thing that came to mind.  For me, good enough is NEVER good enough.  Maybe your pastor feels the same way.

To add to what Jonathan said, I'd also ask your pastor why he believes an extra rehearsal is necessary.  I agree that communication is key.  Maybe he made some observations about which you're unaware.  Or maybe you two have different standards of excellence.

Either way, he's the boss, so if you want to remain in right standing with God, you should go ahead and do the rehearsal (and if compensation is a factor, discuss that with him first).

A lot of times, God gives pastors insight into things He doesn't necessarily show us.  We've got to learn to trust our leaders and follow them for as long as they're following Christ.

[tobiustobi1]

So, you want more money if you're going to take on this task? 

I'm not getting anything (at least he never mentioned finances, as he always does).  But I would sure love to compensated for it.  I did not mention that I also travel as a Minister, that's why it may be taxing on my schedule.  Trust me, I sacrifice.

Have you asked your pastor about it? If not, why not?

I have not YET, but I wanted to get all my counsel together first.  Surely you understand.

[sjonathan02]

I'm not getting anything (at least he never mentioned finances, as he always does).  But I would sure love to compensated for it.  I did not mention that I also travel as a Minister, that's why it may be taxing on my schedule.  Trust me, I sacrifice.
I have not YET, but I wanted to get all my counsel together first.  Surely you understand.

I'm not implying that you don't sacrifice. And, I do understand. Which is why I made my comments.


You seem to be at a crossroad. Either you continue to do as you've been doing OR you prepare to make a decision based on what your pastor is asking of you.

Make no mistake though; if your pastor is hearing from God concerning an extra rehearsal, ONCE a month, then your schedule and your sacrifice take a back seat to what God is telling His man servant (your pastor).


Are you prepared to walk away if/when your pastor becomes insistent with his request and there's no alternative for you?


Lay your cards on the table. Sometimes, pastors forget (after all, they're human, just like us).

Explain your situation (meaning, don't complain about it, or look for sympathy) simply show your pastor your bottom line of the issue and be prepared to do something differently (such as walking away from this ministry or concentrating on being a full-time evangelist) should the CONVERSATION not go the way you hoped/prayed.



Just talk; yelling solves nothing and creates a riff that can be difficult to repair.


Be Blessed. 

[tobiustobi1]

thank you kindly...One more issue I'm dealing with.  They asked me to come in and help them over a year ago.  I am Musically trained, read music, play keys, can pick out parts etc.  Well, they have someone as THE MINISTER OF MUSIC (over me), but she does not have any training, can't hear parts, can't pick parts, and not the best singing voice. 

Well I find it hard to submit to someonw who is illiterate musically...and they continue to hold her up in that position....what are you thoughts on that.  And I ask because there is SOOO MUCH TENSION between us.  She's always second guessing me, but has no clue.  HELP ME!!!  THANKS AGAIN IN ADVANCE.  I am a male and she is a female, not that that would matter but I did want to point out all the obvious issues.

[momuzik]

...simply show your pastor your bottom line of the issue...

Sounds like your bottom line is your schedule and funds. You need to make it plain to your pastor,

...I am Musically trained, read music, play keys, can pick out parts etc...but she does not have any training, can't hear parts, can't pick parts, and not the best singing voice...Well I find it hard to submit to someonw who is illiterate musically...and they continue to hold her up in that position...

I think we've all been in that position where we feel more qualified than the one in charge. Well this is a good opportunity for you to practice some humility: to swallow your pride, humble yourself and serve anyway. Since you have the knowlege and experience, help her out in everyway you can without embarassing or belittling her. Make some of the ideas sound like hers - that should take care of the tension part.

[sjonathan02]

thank you kindly...One more issue I'm dealing with.  They asked me to come in and help them over a year ago.  I am Musically trained, read music, play keys, can pick out parts etc.  Well, they have someone as THE MINISTER OF MUSIC (over me), but she does not have any training, can't hear parts, can't pick parts, and not the best singing voice. 

Well I find it hard to submit to someonw who is illiterate musically...and they continue to hold her up in that position....what are you thoughts on that.  And I ask because there is SOOO MUCH TENSION between us.  She's always second guessing me, but has no clue.  HELP ME!!!  THANKS AGAIN IN ADVANCE.  I am a male and she is a female, not that that would matter but I did want to point out all the obvious issues.

Sounds like your bottom line is your schedule and funds. You need to make it plain to your pastor,

I think we've all been in that position where we feel more qualified than the one in charge. Well this is a good opportunity for you to practice some humility: to swallow your pride, humble yourself and serve anyway. Since you have the knowlege and experience, help her out in everyway you can without embarassing or belittling her. Make some of the ideas sound like hers - that should take care of the tension part.

Momuzik is correct. This could be a time for you to allow God to work on your patience. If you can't handle dealing with authority (no matter their level of ability) then folks WILL have a problem following your authority.


Now, that's not THE reason you should submit yourself to her authority. You should do it because that's what God says for us to do (Check out 1 Peter 2, starting at the 13th verse).


These issues may have less to do with music and more to do with developing positive, Christian relationships with those in authority over you.



Pray about it. 

[kodacolor]

The Pastor of the Church where I am at as Musician/ Minister of Music, wants an extra rehearsal day.  My thing is, I really don't feel we need one--they can get there 15-30 minutes earlier to review the music.  We start service at 10a, but we rehearse from about 9:00am to about 9:40am.  For what we do, that is ample enough time.  They get cd's quarterly of all the songs...and they receive emails as to what songlist will be for that upcoming service.  I personally think that works fine--GOOD ENOUGH!

HERE IS MY PROBLEM.  I work a job outside of church and my weekends are "my time" to get MYSELF together, personally.  It's my time; enough said!  So the Pastor wants like a Saturday rehearsal once a month to learn these new songs....but we don't need that, we are fine like we are!

The music ministry is not a "Sunday morning" ministry.  You may have to make yourself available during another part of the week.  One Saturday out of 4 -5 Saturdays in a month is not asking a lot at all.  Maybe you should have a friend or a family member who's in the congregation tape record your choir/musicians playing on Sunday for the next month or so.  Get a chance to hear yourselves.  Perhaps your pastor has a point.  I know with the musicians at my church almost everyone fakes it.  No one really knows the songs except maybe me and one other person.  Barely anyone knows the same version of almost any given song.  We don't sound horrible, but we could do a lot better.  There's nothing wrong with going the extra mile for God's ministry.  I understand how you feel about Saturdays.  Most people feel that way about Saturday, but still one Saturday out of a month is not asking a lot.

I still didn't give you the real problem...ok, I am given an honorarium for the services provided to the church.  Well, with all thee economic crunch we're in...I try to manage everything properly--funds included!

First off, I really don't want to do this (extra rehearsal).  Secondly, I simply CANNOT do this for free! 

Someone mentioned in another post here, that they charge more for rehearsals than they do for actual Service days because of the work and effort (parts etc).

What would you say for my behalf?  Thanks in advance for your responses and replies.

...idk.  Can you not do it for free because you know it will put a dent in your funds for doing it, or can you not do it for free because they're using one of "your" days?

[kodacolor]

I am a male and she is a female, not that that would matter but I did want to point out all the obvious issues.

If it doesn't matter why is it an issue?

[cutepreacher]

Ok...... I know you don't think the choir needs more practice, but I can promise you someone thinks so. I would even go out on a limb to say that the pastor has probably gotten some complaints.

Someone wrote earlier that music ministry is not just on sumday...well the church should compensate the music staff with that in mind. The church is almost the only place I know that insist on free musicians. You rarely hear about free preaching. hmmmmmmm

Also allow me to ask do you have a contract? What's in it? It's not fair for them to assume that you can all of a sudden change your schedule to accommodate them. I don't think you should be hard to work with, but they should respect your life and what you have going on. It won't hurt to do the extra rehearsal, but it shouldn't be demanded "This Year." NOw.. if they want to look at this for next year.. fine. That gives you a choice.

One more thing. Don't let them put the religious stuff on you. The church always uses the statement that you should play for God, but they don't treat the musical staff like they are a gift from God. The bible says that a workman is worthy of his hire.

Ok so lets be real. It's about principles and respect. I don't mind working with my church if they respect me as a person. If we agreed on one rehearsal then don't demand two - simply suggest two. The response is so much better.

[kodacolor]

Ok...... I know you don't think the choir needs more practice, but I can promise you someone thinks so. I would even go out on a limb to say that the pastor has probably gotten some complaints.

Someone wrote earlier that music ministry is not just on sumday...well the church should compensate the music staff with that in mind. The church is almost the only place I know that insist on free musicians. You rarely hear about free preaching. hmmmmmmm

Whelp if the most prep a music ministry did was from 9am - 9:40am I wouldn't be motivated to pay them either!  And when do you hear about a preacher only preparing his sermon for 40 minutes?  Any Pastor worth his weight will prepare for, at least, 40 hours!  Also a Pastor's job doesn't just stop at preaching on Sunday.  His ministry takes place through out the week.  I haven't heard of free preaching, but I have heard of Pastors having to get second jobs because the church they Pastor can't/won't pay them enough. (And it's not because they live so lavishly and don't want to down grade either).  Even in those situations the Pastor would have to take on a lot of (if not all of) the responsibilities of a full time Pastor.

Examine your motives.  It really says a lot when the only reason you're willing to do better is if you get paid.  I understand when you're on the job and they ask you to do something that you need to be getting paid more for (like closing out for the night and locking up or something) but this is ministry.  Some churches can afford to pay and others can't.  The Levites got paid, but hey also didn't do just do the bare minimum either.   

Also allow me to ask do you have a contract? What's in it? It's not fair for them to assume that you can all of a sudden change your schedule to accommodate them. I don't think you should be hard to work with, but they should respect your life and what you have going on. It won't hurt to do the extra rehearsal, but it shouldn't be demanded "This Year." NOw.. if they want to look at this for next year.. fine. That gives you a choice.

No I don't have a contract.  I don't get paid for heading a ministry and all the prep, stress, etc that comes with it.  I really don't mind either.  It's not because I'm "super spiritual" or anything like that...I just don't mind.  Also I know the state my church is in.  Nobody is getting paid.  We just got a new building and we're having a hard time paying for it so why would I ask to get paid?  So...there are 6 months left in this year.  That's 26 Saturdays.  Out of those 26 Saturdays you'd only have to give up 6 of them...and they have to wait until next year to implement this? 

One more thing. Don't let them put the religious stuff on you. The church always uses the statement that you should play for God, but they don't treat the musical staff like they are a gift from God. The bible says that a workman is worthy of his hire.

I feel for musicians at churches who treat them like garbage meaning they don't give them enough time to practice/learn a song...they are always blaming the musicians for something when the service doesn't go as planned...they have no respect for the musician's equipment, etc.  But "treat like garbage" =/= "doesn't pay".  CD players, tracks, and albums can be seen as gifts from God too.

Ok so lets be real. It's about principles and respect. I don't mind working with my church if they respect me as a person. If we agreed on one rehearsal then don't demand two - simply suggest two. The response is so much better.

I can agree with you when you say that suggesting something will yield a better response than demanding something.

[jonesl78]

  We start service at 10a, but we rehearse from about 9:00am to about 9:40am.  For what we do, that is ample enough time.  They get cd's quarterly of all the songs...and they receive emails as to what songlist will be for that upcoming service.  I personally think that works fine--GOOD ENOUGH!

I've never had a rehearsal prior to church service unless I was filling in last minute for another musician. That just seems like a recipe for disaster.

[tobiustobi1]

Thank you all for your responses and I pray you respond even more.  But there are a few things that I failed to mentioned.  I work nights at a secular job.  They have their CD's to go over, so it's not like the music is unfamiliar to them.  I DO NOT work with a choir, its a 7 member ensemble of singers.  We sing half of our music is from tracks the half I play on piano.  It is not your normal setup...as we don't have a band.  I am the band--the only instrument (piano).

I read an article (http://www.earnestandroline.com/Music/Article/rehearsal.html) and came to the conclusion that I could rehearse Wednesday nights after service, as stated in the article.  Its fits my schedule perfectly.

Before I got there, all they did was sing 3 or 4 songs and that was the end of the worship service.  Now, it goes well beyond 30 mins pretty much every service...lately 45.

I don't introduce a whole lot of music at one time as most of you guys do.  Because I'm NOT full-time doing this, I simply cannot dedicate "full-time" to this.  Now the story would be different if I were.  So when I introduce a new song, we drive that thing for weeks, and they do really well with it.  BTW, they used music stands before I got there and still do, so they have copies of the music to off of.  EASY!!!!

More is being demanded of me, but honorarium is not.  And for ME, I do not not believe it's fair!

I am considering stepping down and just allowing them to go back to their old way of doing things.  Because in more than one way, I am not being treated with proper Regard and Respect.  They follow the teaching of Kenneth Copeland and the whole "Word of Faith"....which I am NOT insulting.  But you know they believe in BIG-MONEY (Kenneth Copeland), and so my thing is if this your way of belief...then why am I on tail-end of it.  Church is paid for-debt free...it's not fair.  They get their FULL-TIME salary, and I'm expected to operate as they do.  Perhaps, if the Pastors were not getting paid, then I wouldn't have a problem serving FREE too. 

And yes Jesus is our reward, but I have to look at the Levites....I bet Kenneth Copeland won't come to your meeting for free...Creflo, Jerry Savelle, Jesse Duplantis...they're all in fellowship (WORD OF FAITH).

Thank you brothers and sisters for your real/honest responses. 

[sjonathan02]

Thank you all for your responses and I pray you respond even more.  But there are a few things that I failed to mentioned.  I work nights at a secular job.  They have their CD's to go over, so it's not like the music is unfamiliar to them.  I DO NOT work with a choir, its a 7 member ensemble of singers.  We sing half of our music is from tracks the half I play on piano.  It is not your normal setup...as we don't have a band.  I am the band--the only instrument (piano).

I read an article (http://www.earnestandroline.com/Music/Article/rehearsal.html) and came to the conclusion that I could rehearse Wednesday nights after service, as stated in the article.  Its fits my schedule perfectly.

Before I got there, all they did was sing 3 or 4 songs and that was the end of the worship service.  Now, it goes well beyond 30 mins pretty much every service...lately 45.

I don't introduce a whole lot of music at one time as most of you guys do.  Because I'm NOT full-time doing this, I simply cannot dedicate "full-time" to this.  Now the story would be different if I were.  So when I introduce a new song, we drive that thing for weeks, and they do really well with it.  BTW, they used music stands before I got there and still do, so they have copies of the music to off of.  EASY!!!!

More is being demanded of me, but honorarium is not.  And for ME, I do not not believe it's fair!

I am considering stepping down and just allowing them to go back to their old way of doing things.  Because in more than one way, I am not being treated with proper Regard and Respect.  They follow the teaching of Kenneth Copeland and the whole "Word of Faith"....which I am NOT insulting.  But you know they believe in BIG-MONEY (Kenneth Copeland), and so my thing is if this your way of belief...then why am I on tail-end of it.  Church is paid for-debt free...it's not fair.  They get their FULL-TIME salary, and I'm expected to operate as they do.  Perhaps, if the Pastors were not getting paid, then I wouldn't have a problem serving FREE too. 

And yes Jesus is our reward, but I have to look at the Levites....I bet Kenneth Copeland won't come to your meeting for free...Creflo, Jerry Savelle, Jesse Duplantis...they're all in fellowship (WORD OF FAITH).

Thank you brothers and sisters for your real/honest responses. 

Wanna real/honest response? Since they're 'WOF', you may want to consider leaving regardless of this situation.


But that's STRICTLY my opinion on that matter.



Concerning the situation, if Wednesday nights work, then let it do what it do.

As to the amount of songs, the pastor may want to increase the use of music used during service. In the future, he may want to do P&W at the beginning of service; or, before Bible study.


Lastly, I'm in a similar situation as you, so the advice I share comes from actual experience. We have no musician; we ONLY use performance trax, etc.


Be Blessed. 

[tobiustobi1]

Concerning the situation, if Wednesday nights work, then let it do what it do.

As to the amount of songs, the pastor may want to increase the use of music used during service. In the future, he may want to do P&W at the beginning of service; or, before Bible study.


Lastly, I'm in a similar situation as you, so the advice I share comes from actual experience. We have no musician; we ONLY use performance trax, etc.


Be Blessed. 

Rehearsal would be after service from 8:15p til about 9:45p.  And they didn't want that.  They finally gave in, but we cannot use the Sanctuary, we have to go in some small room!  What a travesty!!!

NE ways, I'm confused as to when you said "As to the amount of songs, the pastor may want to increase the use of music used during service. In the future, he may want to do P&W at the beginning of service; or, before Bible study."

What did you mean, I don't understand.  We do P&W at the beginning of service as always.

Also, please elaborate more on your whole "personal" thing about "WORD OF FAITH," I'm interested.  BTW, who would have thought we're almost in the same predicament....we should exchange email contacts etc.

Thanks again, this is really helping me as I am praying.

[sjonathan02]

Before I got there, all they did was sing 3 or 4 songs and that was the end of the worship service.  Now, it goes well beyond 30 mins pretty much every service...lately 45.

NE ways, I'm confused as to when you said "As to the amount of songs, the pastor may want to increase the use of music used during service. In the future, he may want to do P&W at the beginning of service; or, before Bible study."

What did you mean, I don't understand.  We do P&W at the beginning of service as always.

In your prior post, you mentioned that they sang songs at the end of service before you got there. That left me with the impression that they didn't do songs prior to service.

My apologies for getting that wrong.


As for my 'strictly personal' views concerning WOF doctrine; I believe them to be pimps (folks who fleece the flock merely to line their own pockets).


That's all I'll say on that.


As for contact, my email is in my profile but you can always PM me as I'm on LGM often (just ask anyone  ).

Glad I could help out. 

[momuzik]

So am I understanding that your church would rather sing from tracks than to pay you for live music?

[sjonathan02]

So am I understanding that your church would rather sing from tracks than to pay you for live music?

Not at all. I don't even play close to well enough to be anybody's keyboardist.....ESPECIALLY tryna lead P&W (which we take VERY seriously).


There have been times when, AFTER p&w, I may play a couple of chords to keep the moment going.

[cbanks1]

Wow you get a honorarium? I wish. I was just about to post a subject becuz as a musician I dont feel appreciated at all. It was never an issue until recently. I do Youth ministry, Youth sunday school, play for our ensemble our kids choir and where ever my pastor asked me to go without an honorarium (sometimes last min). When people dont show, I step up and do whatever they asked me to do. For atleast 4-5 years straight. Is it wrong to say I've been burned out? I tried to keep going but I stopped going to some church outings unless my pastor was actually preaching. Oh yeah, He's a musician too. It seemed as though the same people were volunteering all the time. We had a church meeting and my pastor asked what was the problem and I told him that people were being burned out. A couple people looked at me like I was crazy but the ones that were actually volunteering agreed. Being burned out is a real thing. I didnt say I wanted to quit but dont be suprized or have an issue if I dont go to every church outing. the next day he called (and I use the Term) "Demoted" me from MOM to church musician. After all I've done, I was very insulted. I didnt say a word but ok and I still play for regular service and leave. I've heard him talk about the churches he's played for and how they blessed him with an offerings and stuff like that. Its not about the money Its about being appreciated. I know the word says "be not weary in your well doing" thats why Im still playing My first thought was just to sit down and focus on the word. I'm just wating for further direction from the lord. What do you think.