what is this chord?

[docjohn]

Bb bass,lt hand Ab  Bb  C Eb  F(and G ;F+Gw/thumb)  tunes is for the Love of You by Isley bros.I think it's in Eb.

The basic chord structure for the tune is the above chord + Ebmaj 7;there is a walkdown which goes to an Ab chord + Cm7 .

Helping a guitar player out-so if this is Eb and the chord above is an F m-it's a ll(m) l type progression.

[csedwards2]

Bb11

common voicing for 11 chords, especially in jazz, is when you play a bass note, and then add a triad in root position or a Maj7 chord in root position for your right hand, one whole step below your bass root.


so in this example a Bb11 is

Bb/Ab C Eb G

the Bb in the LH is just the root again or the 9th in Ab, and the F in the RH is just the 5th of Bb or the 13th of Ab, whichever way you want to look at it. Its best to analyze it from the root though

[GospelEngineer]

The G makes it a Bb13

[csedwards2]

if its played where I think he's talking about, it doesnt carry the function of a 13th chord. It sounds like the chord at the beginning of the verse, and thats an 11th all the way.

[GospelEngineer]

So how does the G fit in? Also what's the function of an 11th vs. a 13th?

[csedwards2]

I dont disagree that the G is the 13th, all Im saying is, its not a 13th chord.

I tried to find some concrete info on 11th chords and their function, but nothing seems to explain this particular example. 11th chords are a sound that comes from jazz. They can be used as a 5 (voicing doesnt include 3rd) and then go back to the tonic. It can also function as the 5 chord that resolves to a dominant chord on the 5.

for example in C

the 5 would normally be G7 or  G/GBDF or some kind of variation. Well one variation would be to turn that G7 into a G11 by playing the formula I said above with a G in the bass, and a F triad in the RH in root position. or G/FAC. The C is what makes it an 11th chord. Notice this 11th has not been raised as in normal dominant chords. Its the natural 11 (4), which is a half step above the 3rd degree of that G7 chord. So if you were to resolve the chord like a sustained chord you could play G/FAC, then move to G/FAB before going on to the tonic or wherever.

Thats one function of the 11th, to use it as a 5 chord resolved or unresolved to go to tonic.

The function I was talking about though is when you use the 11th as a 1 chord or a substitution for a minor chord. Using it as a 1 chord, means it goes where a 1 would normally go, and it will give your progression an open/suspended type of feel to it. In jazz there are songs that are built off of this open type of voicing that I was talking about ie. Maiden Voyage, where pretty much the whole song is built on 11 ths (Im away from the chords right now but will update with the chords heard later)

Herbie Hancock - Maiden Voyage

So the voicing heard in the song is something similar to what I posted earlier

in C (away from the keyboard so I'll put correct key in later too)it would be:

C11 or

C/ BbDF (major triad one step down voicing)
another way to do it is to play a minor 7th chord built on the 5th degree of the chord or

C/ GBbDF (notice it still has BbDF in the chord which is what gives it that 11th sound.)

or you could voice it with a major 7th chord one step down or

C/ BbDFA (which is what we have in the example with that Isley tune.) When you have the major 7th one step down voicing it adds in the 13th degree of the chord (A), but it does not change the function which is still the 11th.

So if someone wanted to be real technical and call it a C11add13 that wouldnt be wrong, but it would not be a C13, because that symbol does not account for the 11th. Csus13 could also work as a symbol, but I think it would be a little misleading because someone reading suspended might believe it needs to resolve when in both songs Maiden Voyage and the Isley Bros tune, it clearly does not.
I hope that helps a bit.

[docjohn]

thanks -it's a great sounding chord-but couldn't figure how to name it

[floaded27]

technically the chord you listed isnt an 11th chord at all. its actually a suspended chord because the 11 isnt technically an 11, its a 4 because there is no 3 present. so its technically a sus9 chord (technically). we treat it as an 11, but its actually a misnomer. just having the 11 there is ambiguous because it doesnt indicate whether its a Cmin11 or a C11. That means without the 3rd present, that 11 is REALLY a sus4. same way a Cadd9 (C-D-E-G) becomes a Csus2 chord without the 3(E) because without it, the D is no longer a 9.

secondly a C11add13 is the actual DEFINITION of a C13 chord in the same way a C7add9 would be  a C9 chord. the reason why C13 isnt correct in your example is because C11 isnt correct either.

thirdly all suspended chords dont have to resolve. its how you use them. they can be used in the right manner as stand alone chords. In this case as i believe it is with most dominant7 chords, its the b7 that causes the need for resolution, so a true 13th chord shouldnt function any differently than a 7th, 9th, or 11th chord. they're just different voicings that give you a different sound and feel, but the function (V resolving to a I) should be the same.

calling this a Csus13 (or a Bbsus13 in the original key) would be wrong as well since a 13 implies an 11, but there is no 11 because its a 4 which is altogether downright confusing.

This is the reason we have the option of slash chords, to represent voicings that would otherwise be way to complicated using the bass note as the chord representation.


the chord in question in the original post Bb / Ab-Bb-C-Eb-F-G is actually an Fmin11/Bb   => F(1) - Ab(b3) - C(5) - Eb(b7) - G(9) - Bb(11) with a Bb in bass.


i use this chord all the time to function as a dominant chord in a 2-5-1 progression in Eb. the 2 is the Fmin11 (i actually use Fmin7 or Fmin9), same chord just switch the bass to Bb to make the 5, then go to an Eb chord for the 1.

common voicing for 11 chords, especially in jazz, is when you play a bass note, and then add a triad in root position or a Maj7 chord in root position for your right hand, one whole step below your bass root.

you are correct here. this is a common way for voicing those 11th chords in jazz. in fact i was taught this same way. and in context it does work like an 11th chord (but because of the G it would be a 13th chord) because your mind IMPLIES the 3rd note so you dont really miss it. But i did my theory research and studying, and as a separated evaluation, this voicing does not technically produce a 11th or 13th chord (by the rules) as i described above. But i and so many else use these voicings.

[T-Block]

*chewing and digesting*

I know doc didn't expect this when he posted, but I'm loving the discussion guys. Yall making me realize how much theory I've either forgotten or have yet to learn. Keep it up!

[docjohn]

It has been good folks;I kept on coming back that it might be a Fm derivative since the chorus has a very pronounced Ab chord.

The old boy's ears still workin' although "stuck" in the 70''s ha ha prz da LORD

[csedwards2]

It has been good folks;I kept on coming back that it might be a Fm derivative since the chorus has a very pronounced Ab chord.

The old boy's ears still workin' although "stuck" in the 70''s ha ha prz da LORD

but what about your Bb bass? That changes the whole game. Can you post a youtube and give us the minute marking of the chord you're talking about

[docjohn]

Actually;I was just playing along with the Isleys' bros version of "For the love of You".It vamps between a Fm and Cm chord;as the song starts there's a step up from G-Ab( 2 1/4 notes on 3+4)-then 2 chords for what I'll call the chorus.I double(triple?) the walk up G +Ab on the pdeals.

I hit a G in octaves with pinky+ thumb left hand;move the pinky to Ab with thumb on F+G;ring finger to Bb,bird finger to C,index to Eb over the Bb bass.The chorus is just this chord and an Eb malj7  which I play  Eb,F,Bb,D,F(lt hand) over Eb bass.

What I'm calling the verse seems to be an Ab,Gm7,Fm,Cm7 with a few arps of the Fm chord in the bass for walk ups.very tasty!!

Earl Klugh and David Walker(guitarists) have some nice versions also