May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[blyempowered]

Possibly but not sure.

[LaylaMonroe]

Jonathan's comment in italics, my replies in bold, green.

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Ok, so I'm in a class and my professor is a bit obtuse and I have enough reading to do there.  I say all that to say, I ain't answering these essay questions---ain't. gonna. do it. *kanyeshrug*


The sophist thing was interesting. NEVER heard that before or the whole persuasive speech being the birth of the sermon discussion, either.

I WILL say that I am looking at what we do at my current church.  To be fair, my pastor tries to elicit discussion during Bible study and Sunday School.  I believe a LOT of folks just don't study enough to be able to articulate their questions so they sit there and nod their heads.

Some churches cultivate a culture of study. I grew up in a church like that. It's true that people don't study independently enough, but that can be changed if the leader wants it to be. This takes me back to a point I made last week pondering whether we would have this issue if we were in house churches. I think people hide behind these pews because they CAN. In a house church (or similar concept), it just seems like we'd have a lot less riff raff, and pew warmers.


As far as the sermon, I agree that doing away with it would serve ME greatly.  I ALWAYS hate when pastors say, 'We can get loud at a football game, but in the church we get quiet.'  It's because there's action, homie.  At church, it's just you talking; folks may be digesting what you're feeding; folks may be stuck on something you said and are checking for verification (it's during these times where I want to ask questions). 

It still surprises me to hear you say that. Still not sure why. LOL. I wouldn't mind doing without the sermon, but not all the time. Maybe a monthly "sermon" type thing... even if it was of a sophist nature. I mean, that's what I'm accustomed to. Ignorant, I know. Stubborn, I know. Perhaps even offensive to God. Lord, help. I can see myself benefiting more from an "each one teach one" environment. But I can also see myself frustrated by the ones who just wanna talk to hear themselves talk, or the ones who just say stuff to get attention, or the ones who ask dumb questions or the ones who hog the entire discussion, trying to show off their smarts... Idk. That could get on my nerves quickly. But if that's the way it's supposed to be... *shrug*

And then, just because that's the way they chose to do it in the NT, does that mean that's the way we HAVE TO do it? Maybe that's just what worked for them. There's no mandate for us to follow suit.

*sigh*


Anyway, that's what I've got so far.


Also, what is the solution, authors?  It's easy to point out the flaws but what are your recommendations (or, do we have to wait for that?)

As Churchy said, I think their solution is to return to the NT church's organic style, no fluff, no extras, no pagan influences, just NT style gatherings.

I'd like to see someone write a book about HOW to practically make that happen after you've been in church for 40 or 50 years of your life.

[LaylaMonroe]

So in other words the clergy and Laity divide is a result of our laziness?

Or maybe our laziness is a result of the perpetuation of the clergy/laity divide.

[phbrown]

I'm gonna respond to Jonathan's stuff tomorrow when I'm on my PC. Well, this part I can say now lol. The questions weren't an assignment or anything. it was just to get/keep the discussion flowing. It was one of those things where you can answer one or all or none of them. No form, no fashion. Just sharing thoughts...

This random thought just crossed my mind. If we take something bad and use it for good, is it still bad??
Yep, In my opinion

 I asked a similar question regarding the steeples, but this one is a lil different. For an oft-used example, if a drug dealer gets pays his tithes is that money now bad money? Who said drug money was bad?!?! Just kidding umm ....Does the "Don't Ask Don't Tell policy" apply in this case?


If a person made millions investing her earnings from stripping, is her money dirty? Rehab maybe?


So if this stuff has pagan roots, but we use it for good, is it still bad?? In short all these questions are does the end justify the means...

*just playing devil's advocate 'cause I know someone will have those questions*

Another random thought: the apostles were trained for 3 years by the Savior Himself. Why shouldn't preachers receive special training and why shouldn't it be mandatory? Clergy Laity divide?


I have a book that lists like 60 things the Apostles learned (and we can learn) from Jesus. That's training. Clearly it was important for Him to teach them this stuff. Shouldn't we have to know certain things before shepherding His precious people? Yep
[/quote]

[phbrown]

As far as the sermon, I agree that doing away with it would serve ME greatly.  I ALWAYS hate when pastors say, 'We can get loud at a football game, but in the church we get quiet.'  It's because there's action, homie.  At church, it's just you talking; folks may be digesting what you're feeding; folks may be stuck on something you said and are checking for verification (it's during these times where I want to ask questions). 

I might have to use that one day ... I wonder if I would be brave enough to actually say that during worship service ROFL!!!

Also, what is the solution, authors?  It's easy to point out the flaws but what are your recommendations (or, do we have to wait for that?)

Buy the 2nd book *sigh*

[phbrown]

Or maybe our laziness is a result of the perpetuation of the clergy/laity divide.

[blyempowered]

Yeah I may buy the 2nd book "Reimagining Church."

[phbrown]

Jonathan's comment in italics, Monroe's replies in bold, green.Phbrown's replies in bold, Blue

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Some churches cultivate a culture of study. I grew up in a church like that. It's true that people don't study independently enough, but that can be changed if the leader wants it to be. This takes me back to a point I made last week pondering whether we would have this issue if we were in house churches. I think people hide behind these pews because they CAN. In a house church (or similar concept), it just seems like we'd have a lot less riff raff, and pew warmers.
+1 potentially

And then, just because that's the way they chose to do it in the NT, does that mean that's the way we HAVE TO do it? Maybe that's just what worked for them. There's no mandate for us to follow suit. hmm ...

[phbrown]

Yeah I may buy the 2nd book "Reimagining Church."

I don't think I will ... marketing, Coporate culture ... 

[blyempowered]

LOL! He could have put that in the 1st book....ha!

[LaylaMonroe]

Yeah, I doubt I'll be buying the second book either. This one is baffling enough.

[sjonathan02]

Then what the hello kitty are we supposed to do??

The only response I have is we are supposed to do it the way the first century Christians did it.

The problem is many believers may actually leave churches by the thousands. 

[blyempowered]

Or maybe our laziness is a result of the perpetuation of the clergy/laity divide.

Could be. 

[phbrown]

The problem is many believers may actually leave churches by the thousands. 

the laborers are few...

[sjonathan02]

the laborers are few...

...even in their own vineyard. 

[LaylaMonroe]

The only response I have is we are supposed to do it the way the first century Christians did it.

The problem is many believers may actually leave churches by the thousands. 

You are really irking me.

Not in a bad (annoying) way. It's just irking me that you're the last person I would've expected to hear talking like this. [Newman] You're throwing me off, Jonathan, you're throwing me off!! [/Newman]

If anyone had asked me, I would've probably guessed that while reading this, I would end up trying to convince you all that we're supposed to do it that way. Now YOU keep saying it and I'm not quite ready to hear it. Not yet anyway...

Okay, tantrum over. As for your last sentence, I don't see people leaving at all.... saints don't wanna hear what this book has to say. Saints don't wanna know the truth. Saints will find a way to explain it away with scripture. Trust.

[sjonathan02]

You are really irking me.

Not in a bad (annoying) way. It's just irking me that you're the last person I would've expected to hear talking like this. [Newman] You're throwing me off, Jonathan, you're throwing me off!! [/Newman]

If anyone had asked me, I would've probably guessed that while reading this, I would end up trying to convince you all that we're supposed to do it that way. Now YOU keep saying it and I'm not quite ready to hear it. Not yet anyway...

Okay, tantrum over. As for your last sentence, I don't see people leaving at all.... saints don't wanna hear what this book has to say. Saints don't wanna know the truth. Saints will find a way to explain it away with scripture. Trust.

Yea, that's the sad, strange truth, ain't it. 

As for throwing you off, I've got nothing. 

[lordluvr]

I'm sooooo far behind....

[LaylaMonroe]

I'm sooooo far behind....

I figured that.

Try to catch up if you can. We miss your input. Plus, we need some balance. Jonathan is over here trying to start a revolution and shut down all the churches. LMBO!

Nah seriously, we do miss your input (and Chs 4-5 are really, reeeeally good). I'll start on 6 tonight.

[sjonathan02]

I figured that.

Try to catch up if you can. We miss your input. Plus, we need some balance. Jonathan is over here trying to start a revolution and shut down all the churches. LMBO!
Nah seriously, we do miss your input (and Chs 4-5 are really, reeeeally good). I'll start on 6 tonight.