May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[blyempowered]

Let me add to what I said earlier: Again, my biggest thing is that when I look at the bible and read about what it was like then and what I see now is almost 2 different things. Yes I understand the contextual aspects but again, I still think that if the Bible is going to be the roadmap, then in principle it must be followed. I understand and agree that methods change and I don't have a problem with methods changing as long as they stay in the principle of the Bible. However, many changes have taken place that go philosophically against what Jesus promoted and the New Testament church. For the last few years I've reached a point where I want to analyze every aspect of what we do and why we do it (not just the black church but the institutional church).

We can even look at the lack of spiritual transformation that is in our churches. How is it that we can say we encountered the presence of God yet still act, talk and think the say the way? I'm asking this to myself a lot. When did we get to the place of church being more of a place of comfort than empowerment and equipping?

Bottomline: I've been thinking about some of these issues for a few years and I just want to be one that understands why we do some of the things we do. I'll admit: I've been born and raised in church and some of these things mentally will be hard for me to change but at the same time I feel a charge to be a part of this movement of getting our churches back focused on Jesus as main feature, spiritual transformation and empowering God's people to serve the community, nation and world.

[blyempowered]

*same* not say....SORRY!

[LaylaMonroe]

Let me add to what I said earlier: Again, my biggest thing is that when I look at the bible and read about what it was like then and what I see now is almost 2 different things. Yes I understand the contextual aspects but again, I still think that if the Bible is going to be the roadmap, then in principle it must be followed. I understand and agree that methods change and I don't have a problem with methods changing as long as they stay in the principle of the Bible. However, many changes have taken place that go philosophically against what Jesus promoted and the New Testament church. For the last few years I've reached a point where I want to analyze every aspect of what we do and why we do it (not just the black church but the institutional church).

We can even look at the lack of spiritual transformation that is in our churches. How is it that we can say we encountered the presence of God yet still act, talk and think the say the way? I'm asking this to myself a lot. When did we get to the place of church being more of a place of comfort than empowerment and equipping?

Bottomline: I've been thinking about some of these issues for a few years and I just want to be one that understands why we do some of the things we do. I'll admit: I've been born and raised in church and some of these things mentally will be hard for me to change but at the same time I feel a charge to be a part of this movement of getting our churches back focused on Jesus as main feature, spiritual transformation and empowering God's people to serve the community, nation and world.

This. is. soooooo. rich.

Good stuff, Churchy. Good stuff. It was a pleasure to read.

[blyempowered]

This. is. soooooo. rich.

Good stuff, Churchy. Good stuff. It was a pleasure to read.

Awww thanks! 

It's only chapter 2 but this discussion has been very, very enlightening! Hearing different perspectives, view points, etc., (both from book and my fellow LGMers) has been incredibly awesome!!

[blyempowered]

believe it or not I'm scared to find out LOL

I definitely understand!! I'm still scared....LOL!

[LaylaMonroe]

One point we didn't really dig into from Chapter 2 is the clergy/laity divide, clergy prominence, attention drawn to clergy, etc. I don't think any of us will deny that this is common in today's church - ESPECIALLY the charismatic church and especially the Black church. That said, is it Biblical?

[chevonee]

Shoot after reading this thread, I am more anxious than ever to get my book....wit a serious quickness!!

[lordluvr]

One point we didn't really dig into from Chapter 2 is the clergy/laity divide, clergy prominence, attention drawn to clergy, etc. I don't think any of us will deny that this is common in today's church - ESPECIALLY the charismatic church and especially the Black church. That said, is it Biblical?

That's an interesting piece of discussion.  I have some opinions and would like to chime in, but time is an enemy at the moment.  I hope to add my 2 cents later.  Hopefully, the topic won't be exhausted by then.

[blyempowered]

One point we didn't really dig into from Chapter 2 is the clergy/laity divide, clergy prominence, attention drawn to clergy, etc. I don't think any of us will deny that this is common in today's church - ESPECIALLY the charismatic church and especially the Black church. That said, is it Biblical?

This is a tough one. I'd make the case that the Bible supports church leadership. I believe the Bible supports people in offices. HOWEVER, I'm beginning to believe that the Bible does not support leadership being hierarchal in nature and attitude. To me, the fundamental problem is NOT having people in roles and positions (Deacons, Pastors, etc.). The problem is when we make it seem like those leaders are BETTER than the members. I believe the clergy divide is something manmade. I think it potentially goes against the "priesthood of all believers" idea. While leaders should be respected, they should NOT be worshipped! This is why I'm against us standing for the Pastor/Bishop when they come in and it drives me nuts that we give more glory to the Pastor than we do to God.

[phbrown]

One point we didn't really dig into from Chapter 2 is the clergy/laity divide, clergy prominence, attention drawn to clergy, etc. I don't think any of us will deny that this is common in today's church - ESPECIALLY the charismatic church and especially the Black church. That said, is it Biblical?

I didn't touch on it cause the author goes much deeper into this topic later

[phbrown]

This is a tough one. I'd make the case that the Bible supports church leadership. I believe the Bible supports people in offices. HOWEVER, I'm beginning to believe that the Bible does not support leadership being hierarchal in nature and attitude. To me, the fundamental problem is NOT having people in roles and positions (Deacons, Pastors, etc.). The problem is when we make it seem like those leaders are BETTER than the members. I believe the clergy divide is something manmade. I think it potentially goes against the "priesthood of all believers" idea. While leaders should be respected, they should NOT be worshipped! This is why I'm against us standing for the Pastor/Bishop when they come in and it drives me nuts that we give more glory to the Pastor than we do to God.

my sentiments exactly ... Its clear to that if you have a group of believers some believer will start to be known by what they do

If it is that they go out and talk to unbelievers, or maybe they are good teachers, or maybe they are great mentors thus they naturally start to assume certain positions even with out being given a title. So these roles and positions are fine. It is as my brother Churchy has said its all man made. Putting certain people on a pedestal.

[blyempowered]

I didn't touch on it cause the author goes much deeper into this topic later

Yeah, chapter 5 deals with it very deep! That's the chapter I'm scared of.....LOL!!

But one thing chapter 2 deals with is the clergy vestments, the "cathedra" (but in traditional churches like Baptist is the higher seat in the pulpit), etc. Again I'm in favor of all preachers on equal sitting. No "special" chair for anyone! A lot of this clergy/laity divide took place and/or began to get serious under Constantine.

[musicbishop]

you would be surprised. it would be different but it would still function... just imagine a choir with out a director the first time they sing a train wreck ... let them practice a bit and you would never know the difference.

I think someone would still end up taking charge even if they don't direct

[LaylaMonroe]

This is a tough one. I'd make the case that the Bible supports church leadership. I believe the Bible supports people in offices. HOWEVER, I'm beginning to believe that the Bible does not support leadership being hierarchal in nature and attitude. To me, the fundamental problem is NOT having people in roles and positions (Deacons, Pastors, etc.). The problem is when we make it seem like those leaders are BETTER than the members. I believe the clergy divide is something manmade. I think it potentially goes against the "priesthood of all believers" idea. While leaders should be respected, they should NOT be worshipped! This is why I'm against us standing for the Pastor/Bishop when they come in and it drives me nuts that we give more glory to the Pastor than we do to God.

Goooooooood stuff, Churchy! You're really doing your thing in this thread, bruh.

[musicbishop]

This is a tough one. I'd make the case that the Bible supports church leadership. I believe the Bible supports people in offices. HOWEVER, I'm beginning to believe that the Bible does not support leadership being hierarchal in nature and attitude. To me, the fundamental problem is NOT having people in roles and positions (Deacons, Pastors, etc.). The problem is when we make it seem like those leaders are BETTER than the members. I believe the clergy divide is something manmade. I think it potentially goes against the "priesthood of all believers" idea. While leaders should be respected, they should NOT be worshipped! This is why I'm against us standing for the Pastor/Bishop when they come in and it drives me nuts that we give more glory to the Pastor than we do to God.

I could be wrong but for as long as I can remember this hasn't really been a problem at my church at least that I know of. We've never been a "stand when the preacher walks in" type of church. I will say we do state and recognize the obvious amongst us sometimes but it has really never been an I'm better than you type thing. That may be because our church is predominately a family church almost everyone there is kin in some way or another but for the majority of the time we really try to lift one another and strengthen one another.

Ex: my dad is my pastor I'm one of the assistant pastor's and my father in-law is assistant #1. My dad has two of us because he recognized our different strengths and realized that we all can be valuable to one another. Even though we know who's who there's no competition going on. we all realize we have strengths and weaknesses and if one falls short in an area we're there to fill in the gap and help in that area.

I do get what you're saying though. I've just never really fell into that, maybe because I've been non-denominational my whole life. hey I put on my pants the same way everyone else does no person will ever be THAT important to me.

People's thinkin is what really messes up alot of things. Cause, let's just say if I started having our church members stand. It wouldn't be because we hold him in such HIGH regard but it would be to show that we stand behind him that we're a united front so to speak. that's why a lot of the traditions we have don't bother me because I get a joy out showing people that we can be on the same page that we all represent the same thing BTJM. To me there's nothing like seeing a part of the body of Christ unified.

[blyempowered]

Thanks LaRue!

@MusicBishop I see what you're saying. A lot these issues boil down to our thinking.

[LaylaMonroe]

Musicbishop, I bet you I could list about 10 things that emphasize a clergy/laity divide and are common in today's Black churches and you would "check off" more than half of them as practices that occur in your church.

[blyempowered]

Musicbishop, I bet you I could list about 10 things that emphasize a clergy/laity divide and are common in today's Black churches and you would "check off" more than half of them as practices that occur in your church.

List them please! I wanna see if some of them apply at my church.

[LaylaMonroe]

List them please! I wanna see if some of them apply at my church.

Well, it's nothing scientific... it would come off the top of my head. LOL. You could probably list some stuff too. I mean, all of us could. I'm just trying to help MB think outside the box of his own experience.

[LaylaMonroe]

1. The pastors' names on the board outside the church.

2. Special seating for pastors, first lady, first family, visiting pastors, and/or clergy.

3. Acknowledging the pastor & first family during the service. You know the usual "we thank God for our pastor... Oh come on, you can do better than that!" and everyone claps and stands, roaring for the wonderful pastor.

4. Special parking spaces for pastors, first family.

5. Don't get me started on the whole adjutant thing (which I think is more common in pentecostal Black churches).

6. Special clergy attire.

7. Special clergy elements for communion (ex. in some churches, the pastor has a special goblet to drink out of for communion while everyone else drinks from the shot glasses... lol)

8. Pastor's name on everything, everywhere you look - on programs, letterhead, billboards, flyers... nowadays, I can't imagine NOT doing that. I can give you 20 reasons why you MUST do that... but at the same time, it's marketing MAN and not GOD. It's marketing a local church instead of JESUS. But it's the norm, so...

9. Calling him "Pastor" so-and-so... and everyone without a "special" calling is just Sister or Brother...

Okay, that's 9...