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Author Topic: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna  (Read 85865 times)

Offline phbrown

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oops another thing

no symbolism really except for the music notes LOL okay i'm done for now

Offline LaylaMonroe

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See, I believe their being on one accord (or, coming together on one accord) is what set the atmosphere.

Yeah, I've always believed that too... because that's what I was taught to believe. But upon further thought, I'm not sure there was a specific "atmosphere" and if there was, the Bible doesn't refer to it. That's something we put in there because it sounds reasonable and makes sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're adding a "doctrine" (for lack of a better word) that implies that God moves if the atmosphere is set.

Idk about that. When did God say that there was a specific atmosphere required before He would move? What about all the other "atmospheres" in all the other locations of his other miracles and movements?
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Offline phbrown

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Our church is kinda like this. we have chairs in the pulpit area but not many ever use them every blue a guest may but other than that they're just there. Even our pastor sits on the second row of pews, assistant pastor #1 is normally still on his guitar b4 he preaches, I'm usually on the drums til I'm called and the rest of the ministers sit in the congregation. I don't thin we'll ever get rid of the podium but when we remodeled it did get put a lot closer to the actual congregation.

The author accuratley described how the church I attend is set up LOL.

the podium, the special chair for the pastor, where the deacons sit ... wow  not sold on the need to change it but it is interesting to think of "so this is how someone came up with this idea"

Offline phbrown

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Idk about that. When did God say that there was a specific atmosphere required before He would move? What about all the other "atmospheres" in all the other locations of his other miracles and movements?

hmm ... your right music isn't the only way to get everyone on the same page....

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I mean some churches SOLELY focus on souls and let outreach be secondary. That's what I meant....LOL!

Offline phbrown

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I mean some churches SOLELY focus on souls and let outreach be secondary. That's what I meant....LOL!

I'm expericing a slightly different problem my church appears to be primarily focused on teaching how to live a christian lifestyle.

Our new pastor has started talking about needing to do evangelism. Cause we don't do any.

We do a little outreach but not much.

Offline phbrown

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I'm experiencing a slightly different problem my church appears to be primarily focused on teaching how to live a christian lifestyle.

Our new pastor has started talking about needing to do evangelism. Cause we don't do any.

We do a little outreach but not much.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Because we connected emotional responses to movement caused by the Holy Ghost.

Yeah. Sadly, we do.

On page 10 his argument concerning the word "church" is caused by translation. Even the writer says that if an early greek christian was talking about the physical building we call a church they would say kuriakon see page 12. Where as the people who are called out to follow Christ are called the Ekklesia.
Two different words in greek that when translated are given the same word in english. The word church in english has more than one meaning

Is that really what the writers said? That's not what I got from p12. I understood them to be saying that the English word for "church" came from the Greek word "kuriakon." That doesn't mean that the early Christians would have referred to our assembly buildings as kuriakons. Am I missing something?

Concerning Constantine
Yeah he may or may not have been the perfect Christan ... but who am I to judge a man who live thousands of years ago to say if he was a righteous and upright leader.

I kinda agree. But if he was worshipping or even paying tribute to other gods, then he was more than just an imperfect Christian.

Now concerning building churches/temples/cathedrals. There is a simple reason why the early christians met in homes and caves and what not. If they had a church it would be easy to round up Christians and kill them!

Its not that they felt having one central location to gather was wrong. (clearly they did this even if it was just meeting at the same house where they tore down a wall to fit everyone).

How do you know that? I mean, it makes sense to me, but do you have a source? For the record, I don't have a problem with church buildings. Jesus went to synagogue, so I'm fine with going to a church building. I just don't think we should spend as much money on them as we should, and that we need to do a better job at knocking down the 4 walls that separate us from our communities and the unsaved.

Okay finally talking about buildings :D

If you can't tell, I don't really care for everything the author is saying ... maybe I'll change later but there are just too many holes in what he is saying. (me arguing brings up his point concerning Greek rhetoric that comes later).

1. Every building before it is built is built with a purpose in mind.

Why do you think the dining room is by the kitchen?
why are there bathrooms inside movie theaters so large?
Why are bedrooms on the second floor of a house many times and not on the first floor?

if you were to take the author's preferred model for how Christians should assemble what would the building look like?
It would feature a large open space, that protects the area from the weather. There would be small circular (oh by the way circles are pagan too just look at Stonehenge) tables that would seat a handful of people who may be eating a meal together. In short it would look like a convention center set up to host a luncheon. On top of that what would happen if in this group of people a short person wanted to talk. Would someone lift that person onto their shoulder so everyone can see them? or would that stand on a chair or even the table so their voice can project. I would say that this author if he had a group large enough would set up a stage area or a podium so someone could stand and say something.

I wouldn't say circles are pagan. God created the earth, right? The earth is a circular shape. As are the sun, moon, other planets in our galaxy, etc...

I must admit though, the other objects inside the church, such as the special seat for the speaker of the hour, which we give special meaning. I see his point there is no reason we should give so much credit to those objects....I'm not going to be able to look at the building I worship in the same ever again.

_______________________________________ _______________________________
wow ... it happened then and it is still happening today...

I think that's the one thing that hit me the hardest in this chapter. Seeing all the correlations between what was then, and what is still taking place today. That was heavy. We are STILL compromising our core values by accepting secular practices and customs. Wow.

Evolution of the architecture
So... whats your point? all buildings are built with a purpose in mind. The churches of today are designed so that one person can teach a vast multitude of people at the same time. There is nothing wrong with that.

Concerning pews... Has the author ever tried to build a single chair? It takes a long time and they are expensive. A pew is easy in comparison.
Have you ever had multiple people attempt to stand up from a pew at once that isn't bolted down? There is the chance that upon standing they would either push the pew back or it could tip over. So bolt them down simple. If you don't believe me sit in a office chair that has wheels (it makes it easier to see) and stand up without holding on to anything. Does the chair move?

I agree with you in general. But their overall point seems to be that in order to accomplish the original function of the Christian assembly, we need to construct our places of worship - be they houses or church buildings - in a fashion that promotes interaction and mutual ministry rather than one head person addressing a body. (I'm not saying I agree, just trying to clarify what I think he's saying). On p37, they assert that Christian architecture has hindered the function of Christians. That's an interesting assertion. We do have a bunch of spectators and inactive members in church. In fact, there's an 80/20 rule commonly known in church leadership (20% of the people do 80% of the work). Would people be more active and involved if the sanctuaries were arranged differently?? Granted, such a change - if even possible - would take decades to stick. But would it make a difference? I wonder...


High Cost of Overhead

it would still exist it just wouldn't be as apparent.

As others had already said. True some of the costs can be consolidated. But look at your own personal budget I'm pretty sure we still pay those same expenses and it adds up to 30-60% of our budget.

No, the "high cost" wouldn't exist at all. Overhead would be much lower with more modest places to meet. I'm not even talking about house churches, but we already know that would be a lot cheaper.
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Offline sjonathan02

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Yeah, I've always believed that too... because that's what I was taught to believe. But upon further thought, I'm not sure there was a specific "atmosphere" and if there was, the Bible doesn't refer to it. That's something we put in there because it sounds reasonable and makes sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're adding a "doctrine" (for lack of a better word) that implies that God moves if the atmosphere is set.

Idk about that. When did God say that there was a specific atmosphere required before He would move? What about all the other "atmospheres" in all the other locations of his other miracles and movements?

What about them? Marching around a city seven times, carrying trumpets of rams' horns, and walking, on the seventh day, around the city seven more times and blowing the trumpets and having the people shout till the walls fall seems like setting an 'atmosphere' to me.  *kanyeshrug*


Being explicit concerning the construction of the tabernacle and the ark seems like setting an 'atmosphere' to me.


Maybe I'm reaching--but, what if I'm not?

Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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What about them? Marching around a city seven times, carrying trumpets of rams' horns, and walking, on the seventh day, around the city seven more times and blowing the trumpets and having the people shout till the walls fall seems like setting an 'atmosphere' to me.  *kanyeshrug*


Being explicit concerning the construction of the tabernacle and the ark seems like setting an 'atmosphere' to me.


Maybe I'm reaching--but, what if I'm not?



Well, I don't know if I would call it reaching. More like trying to think it through and rationalize it. But you know, I just think it's one of those things we made up. I just did a quick search on Biblegateway. The word "atmosphere" isn't mentioned at all in KJV. It's mentioned once in the AMP in the book of Revelations, but it seems to mean vicinity more than climate.

I like the way you thought about those examples. I had to pause to process that... good stuff.  But I don't think there's anything that indicates that any particular "atmosphere" was set. I think we made it up and it's one of those things that make sense, so we hold on to it. Well, let me put it like this. Atmosphere, obviously, is real. I just think we (the church) spiritualized it. To me, setting the atmosphere for service should mean making sure the sanctuary is clean, fresh-smelling, the temperature is right, and the lights are on. I think anything more than that, we added to the Christian/church experience.
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Offline sjonathan02

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Well, I don't know if I would call it reaching. More like trying to think it through and rationalize it. But you know, I just think it's one of those things we made up. I just did a quick search on Biblegateway. The word "atmosphere" isn't mentioned at all in KJV. It's mentioned once in the AMP in the book of Revelations, but it seems to mean vicinity more than climate.

I like the way you thought about those examples. I had to pause to process that... good stuff.  But I don't think there's anything that indicates that any particular "atmosphere" was set. I think we made it up and it's one of those things that make sense, so we hold on to it. Well, let me put it like this. Atmosphere, obviously, is real. I just think we (the church) spiritualized it. To me, setting the atmosphere for service should mean making sure the sanctuary is clean, fresh-smelling, the temperature is right, and the lights are on. I think anything more than that, we added to the Christian/church experience.

Interesting.  At the same time, that makes it no different than preparing a stadium for a football game or preparing a theater for the next showing of a movie. 

I'd like to think church service is a bit more than just that.  :-\
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Offline LaylaMonroe

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In my church, I often hear presiders and P&W leaders exhorting the people to "charge" the atmosphere. I've probably even said that myself a time or two.

But now that I'm really thinking about it, in MY church, that translates to "make a lot of noise and exhibit a lot of emotions so the spirit of the Lord can visit us and make people speak in tongues, run, fall out, cry, and/or dance. That way, it will be easier for Pastor to preach to your emotions and when you leave, you'll say that church was good." We have done so much to add emotions to the move of God that - as I've mentioned in OITC - we really don't even know what a real move of God is like. I often wonder if we would even recognize one (we, including me).  :-\ :-[ :'(

I think this whole atmosphere thing contains a bit of hype. God can move on us/in us/for us regardless of our conditions.
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Offline lordluvr

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In my church, I often hear presiders and P&W leaders exhorting the people to "charge" the atmosphere. I've probably even said that myself a time or two.

But now that I'm really thinking about it, in MY church, that translates to "make a lot of noise and exhibit a lot of emotions so the spirit of the Lord can visit us and make people speak in tongues, run, fall out, cry, and/or dance. That way, it will be easier for Pastor to preach to your emotions and when you leave, you'll say that church was good." We have done so much to add emotions to the move of God that - as I've mentioned in OITC - we really don't even know what a real move of God is like. I often wonder if we would even recognize one (we, including me).  :-\ :-[ :'(

I think this whole atmosphere thing contains a bit of hype. God can move on us/in us/for us regardless of our conditions.
I'm on the same page.

Offline lordluvr

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Now that the discussion is starting to move a bit, I've got to hit "unnotify".  LOL

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Interesting.  At the same time, that makes it no different than preparing a stadium for a football game or preparing a theater for the next showing of a movie. 

I'd like to think church service is a bit more than just that.  :-\

Yeah, I mean maybe I just don't get it. :-\ Yes, church service is more than a movie or football game. But other than charging emotions, what does setting the atmosphere do? Does it really make God move? Is there any evidence that God moves when, and only when, an atmosphere is "set"?  If we just focus on Jesus, isn't that enough? (all rhetorical... and at this point, probably redundant).
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Offline LaylaMonroe

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I'm on the same page.

Well, that's good to know.
Now that the discussion is starting to move a bit, I've got to hit "unnotify".  LOL

OMG that made me laugh out loud while answering a business call. :o :D :D :D :D
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Offline phbrown

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Is that really what the writers said? That's not what I got from p12. I understood them to be saying that the English word for "church" came from the Greek word "kuriakon." That doesn't mean that the early Christians would have referred to our assembly buildings as kuriakons. Am I missing something?
Quote

Why not? What would they have called it? I know they wouldn't have called it the Ekklesia. They would have referred to the building by a different name.

How do you know that? I mean, it makes sense to me, but do you have a source? For the record, I don't have a problem with church buildings. Jesus went to synagogue, so I'm fine with going to a church building. I just don't think we should spend as much money on them as we should, and that we need to do a better job at knocking down the 4 walls that separate us from our communities and the unsaved.

I got this from wikipedia. If I was a pagan mob and I wanted to kill some christians I would go to the large building they built that they gather at however if the christians routinely secretly just met in different people's houses it would not be easy to kill a a group of them.

Quote
Christianity was an illegal religion in the eyes of the Roman state.[3] For the first two centuries of its existence, Christianity and its practitioners were unpopular with the people at large.[4] Christians were always suspect,[3] members of a "secret society" whose members communicated with a private code[5] and who shied away from the public sphere.[6] It was popular hostility—the anger of the crowd—which drove the earliest persecutions, not official action.[4] In Lyon in 177, it was only the intervention of civil authorities that stopped a pagan mob from dragging Christians from their houses and beating them to death. The governor of Bithynia–Pontus, Pliny, was sent long lists of denunciations by anonymous citizens, which Emperor Trajan advised him to ignore.[7]


I wouldn't say circles are pagan. God created the earth, right? The earth is a circular shape. As are the sun, moon, other planets in our galaxy, etc...
not technically but you are correct I was a tad bit over zealous when I made that statement


I agree with you in general. But their overall point seems to be that in order to accomplish the original function of the Christian assembly, we need to construct our places of worship - be they houses or church buildings - in a fashion that promotes interaction and mutual ministry rather than one head person addressing a body. (I'm not saying I agree, just trying to clarify what I think he's saying). On p37, they assert that Christian architecture has hindered the function of Christians. That's an interesting assertion.
Okay, thank you for clarifying


We do have a bunch of spectators and inactive members in church. In fact, there's an 80/20 rule commonly known in church leadership (20% of the people do 80% of the work). Would people be more active and involved if the sanctuaries were arranged differently?? Granted, such a change - if even possible - would take decades to stick. But would it make a difference?
It is possible ... but I think eventually the small groups would degenerate into where 1-2 people dominate the group. Sort of like here on LGM, there are a few prolific posters and then there are the lurkers.

No, the "high cost" wouldn't exist at all. Overhead would be much lower with more modest places to meet. I'm not even talking about house churches, but we already know that would be a lot cheaper.
I disagree slightly, but the following question my erase my disagreement.

What do you consider makes up the high cost of overhead?

I was only considering the building.

Offline phbrown

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In my church, I often hear presiders and P&W leaders exhorting the people to "charge" the atmosphere. I've probably even said that myself a time or two.

But now that I'm really thinking about it, in MY church, that translates to "make a lot of noise and exhibit a lot of emotions so the spirit of the Lord can visit us and make people speak in tongues, run, fall out, cry, and/or dance. That way, it will be easier for Pastor to preach to your emotions and when you leave, you'll say that church was good." We have done so much to add emotions to the move of God that - as I've mentioned in OITC - we really don't even know what a real move of God is like. I often wonder if we would even recognize one (we, including me).  :-\ :-[ :'(

I think this whole atmosphere thing contains a bit of hype. God can move on us/in us/for us regardless of our conditions.

+1, I wouldn't have agreed with this statement a month ago but now ... after reading this book ... your right

Offline lordluvr

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I wish I could remember everything I wanted to say regarding chapter 2.  Unfortunately, I didn't take notes on it like I did chapter 1.  I can say that I understand where the author is coming from in showing how even the edifice has a pagan influence.  However, I come away with the feeling that he feels that because of the pagan influence regarding the construction of the building, we as new millennium believers can't break from tradition and worship God for who He is, based on our personal relationships with Him. 

We don't need to go back to meeting in individual houses in order to have that face to face interaction.  We just need to WANT to have face to face interaction. 

There are some molds that we MUST break free from in today's church.  I see so much traditionalism in churches today, it's almost laughable- especially when you consider how little some of those traditions really add to the body as a whole.  In Eph. chapter 4, Paul talks about what God gave to the church, in terms of people.  And, he talked about the purpose of those people and the function of the body itself.  I think we need to evaluate what we "add" to church services against the criteria he set:

- "for the perfecting of the saints..."- Does XYZ practice enable that?  Maybe we should consider chucking it.
- "for the work of the ministry..." - How exactly does having a church anniversary or choir reunion or anything else traditional bring that into effect?
- "for the edifying of the body of Christ"....and so on.  There's so much that goes on in the church today that do nothing to promote the growth of the body that I think we need to do away with.  But, WHERE we worship, in and of itself, is not a concern to me, in general.

Offline lordluvr

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Sorry if my post no longer has relevance.   I was in the middle of typing when my daughter came in the room to talk to me.  By the time I hit send, there were multiple replies before mine.
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