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Author Topic: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna  (Read 85896 times)

Offline sjonathan02

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Not to some. Some think it's just about winning souls and going to heaven:-\

Isn't that what evangelism is, bruh? :-\ ?/?
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Offline phbrown

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So I'll start this discussion on chapter 2 with 2 quotes:

"The social location of the chruch meeting expresses and influences the character of the church."
"Every building we encounter elicits a response from us. By it's interior and exterior, it explicity shows us what the church is and how it functions."

Do you all agree or disagree with those quotes?

It seems like the author is basically making the case that the idea of church buildings takes away from what worship was originally intended to be. According to the author, worship in the New Testament was open-participation (which I think could be supported by 1 Corinthians 12 & 14). Also, he argues against treating the sanctuary/church building as sacred. Do you all agree or disagree with his view?

Yep I agree whole heartedly with both quotes.

I don't agree with the author position about taking away from worship but I understand what he is saying.

Not sold on the sacred aspect... still chewing the cud on that one

Offline musicbishop

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Love this! When our church eventually rebuilds (don't know when that will happen) I'd love for us to do chairs instead of pews but our church is a little traditional (not very) so they may want pews....LOL! Honestly, I'd love to see them do chairs.

And another thing: I found it interesting reading about the traditional pew chairs. I knew a little about the "cathedra" because it was mentioned a lot when our former former pastor was consecrated Bishop in our church (and that was the most controversial thing up in our baptist church....LOL!). I have said before that I am in favor of getting rid of traditional pulpit setup and not having ANYONE sit in the pulpit! In my fantasy church, all speakers would sit in the 1st pew or in the 1st row of chairs and then come up to speak. As a matter of fact, I'd probably have the podium on the floor.


Our church is kinda like this. we have chairs in the pulpit area but not many ever use them every blue a guest may but other than that they're just there. Even our pastor sits on the second row of pews, assistant pastor #1 is normally still on his guitar b4 he preaches, I'm usually on the drums til I'm called and the rest of the ministers sit in the congregation. I don't thin we'll ever get rid of the podium but when we remodeled it did get put a lot closer to the actual congregation.
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Offline phbrown

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And what about Constantine? What's your view of him as far as his significance?

I believe he had a large influence on spreading the gospel. that is all I can say

Offline phbrown

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I'm not really concerned about taking things from ancient Judaism.

+1

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Another thought of mine from p29. The authors discuss the use of color, light, and overall architecture to create a certain mood. They used the phrase "emotive factors" and that jumped out at me. It reminds me of our modern focus on "setting the atmosphere" (which has also become a hype phrase). When you ask someone what setting the atmosphere means, rarely can they give you a LOGICAL answer.

So the praise team, and music department overall, is responsible for "setting the atmosphere" which is exactly what Constantine was trying to do in the 4th century. But what does that mean - and more importantly WHY are we trying to set an atmosphere to elicit emotional responses? What atmosphere does the Holy Ghost need in order to move? <-- about to be a FB status... lol
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Offline phbrown

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I do, however, believe that changing the seating arrangment for Bible study might be an interesting idea.

arrangement*

Offline phbrown

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I swear, I wish we would do that. But, alas, our recording equipment is in the sanctuary. ::) :-\

you record the bible study?

Offline phbrown

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BUT, I do think that their point isn't about auxiliaries and fellowship, but the overall distinction/separation between clergy and laity. The hierarchy... the assignment of power or the illusion of sacredness.

In pentecostal churches, it is implied that pastors are more anointed, have more power, more ability and just more everything than laity. I think the authors are opposed to that.

were the disciples on the same level as the other followers of Christ such as Nicodemus?

Offline phbrown

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But I think what the authors want is something much bigger. They want house-style assemblies patterned after the NT gatherings, where everyone was on equal footing and shared freely (until Paul told the women to shut up... lol).

yep, that is the whole point of this book in my opinion.

Offline phbrown

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Our goal is to win souls.

OOOOWWWWEEEEE!!! I can't wait for you to get to the next few chapters LOL and you thought the author was messing with your mind before

Offline phbrown

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So the praise team, and music department overall, is responsible for "setting the atmosphere" which is exactly what Constantine was trying to do in the 4th century. But what does that mean - and more importantly WHY are we trying to set an atmosphere to elicit emotional responses? What atmosphere does the Holy Ghost need in order to move? <-- about to be a FB status... lol

Because we connected emotional responses to movement caused by the Holy Ghost.

for example people crying after giving their life to Jesus...

Shouts of Joy (an emotion)

Offline phbrown

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you record the bible study?

okay never mind I see you already answered Rue.

Offline sjonathan02

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you record the bible study?

Each and every Wednesday, sir.
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Offline sjonathan02

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Another thought of mine from p29. The authors discuss the use of color, light, and overall architecture to create a certain mood. They used the phrase "emotive factors" and that jumped out at me. It reminds me of our modern focus on "setting the atmosphere" (which has also become a hype phrase). When you ask someone what setting the atmosphere means, rarely can they give you a LOGICAL answer.

So the praise team, and music department overall, is responsible for "setting the atmosphere" which is exactly what Constantine was trying to do in the 4th century. But what does that mean - and more importantly WHY are we trying to set an atmosphere to elicit emotional responses? What atmosphere does the Holy Ghost need in order to move? <-- about to be a FB status... lol

How about hearts and minds being on one accord so that a move of the Holy Ghost can occur like in Acts?
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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How about hearts and minds being on one accord so that a move of the Holy Ghost can occur like in Acts?

VERY good answer. But is that an "atmosphere"? I don't think so, but ICBW. Haven't given it much thought.

OAN, I would never admit this to my fellow Apostolics, but I honestly am not sure I understand why we try to replicate the Day of Pentecost. In my entire life, I've never seen anything in person that matches what took place in Acts 2. A sound from heaven like a rushing, mighty wind? Cloven tongues like fire sitting on people? People speaking in real languages other than their own? All in a corporate fashion?

Who has seen that?

I agree we should be on one accord when we come together, but I don't know if that has anything to do with setting an atmosphere or even music. I think we just all need to focus on Jesus instead of all the fluff-stuff we set our eyes on. There's nothing in Acts 2 that indicates they were on one accord because the atmosphere was set. I think they may have just come together on one accord. Idk...
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Offline sjonathan02

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VERY good answer. But is that an "atmosphere"? I don't think so, but ICBW. Haven't given it much thought.

OAN, I would never admit this to my fellow Apostolics, but I honestly am not sure I understand why we try to replicate the Day of Pentecost. In my entire life, I've never seen anything in person that matches what took place in Acts 2. A sound from heaven like a rushing, mighty wind? Cloven tongues like fire sitting on people? People speaking in real languages other than their own? All in a corporate fashion?

Who has seen that?

I agree we should be on one accord when we come together, but I don't know if that has anything to do with setting an atmosphere or even music. I think we just all need to focus on Jesus instead of all the fluff-stuff we set our eyes on. There's nothing in Acts 2 that indicates they were on one accord because the atmosphere was set. I think they may have just come together on one accord. Idk...

See, I believe their being on one accord (or, coming together on one accord) is what set the atmosphere.
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline phbrown

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Okay sorry for the plethora of responses ...

Disclaimer:I studied at school to become an engineer. As such I tend to look a buildings a little bit different than most


Okay

On page 10 his argument concerning the word "church" is caused by translation. Even the writer says that if an early greek christian was talking about the physical building we call a church they would say kuriakon see page 12. Where as the people who are called out to follow Christ are called the Ekklesia.
Two different words in greek that when translated are given the same word in english. The word church in english has more than one meaning
According to the Webster-Merriam Dictionary

1: a building for public and especially Christian worship i.e. kuriakon
2: the clergy or officialdom of a religious body
3 often capitalized : a body or organization of religious believers i.e. ekklesia: as
   a : the whole body of Christians
   b : denomination <the Presbyterian church>
   c : congregation
4: a public divine worship <goes to church every Sunday>
5: the clerical profession <considered the church as a possible career>

The words in bold were added by me.

That takes care of most of hi statements from page 10-14 not all just most
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Okay I agree concerning the sacred objects. Sadly we have a carnal mindset... not sure how to fix it. and yet at the same time as Rue stated I don't have any problem with separating things from everyday use.

I don't mind certain things being set apart to be used only for certain occasions. so ... i'm indecisive on this one

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We already covered the whole full meal aspect.
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Concerning Constantine
Yeah he may or may not have been the perfect Christan ... but who am I to judge a man who live thousands of years ago to say if he was a righteous and upright leader.

Now concerning building churches/temples/cathedrals. There is a simple reason why the early christians met in homes and caves and what not. If they had a church it would be easy to round up Christians and kill them!

Its not that they felt having one central location to gather was wrong. (clearly they did this even if it was just meeting at the same house where they tore down a wall to fit everyone).
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Okay finally talking about buildings :D

If you can't tell, I don't really care for everything the author is saying ... maybe I'll change later but there are just too many holes in what he is saying. (me arguing brings up his point concerning Greek rhetoric that comes later).

1. Every building before it is built is built with a purpose in mind.

Why do you think the dining room is by the kitchen?
why are there bathrooms inside movie theaters so large?
Why are bedrooms on the second floor of a house many times and not on the first floor?

if you were to take the author's preferred model for how Christians should assemble what would the building look like?
It would feature a large open space, that protects the area from the weather. There would be small circular (oh by the way circles are pagan too just look at Stonehenge) tables that would seat a handful of people who may be eating a meal together. In short it would look like a convention center set up to host a luncheon. On top of that what would happen if in this group of people a short person wanted to talk. Would someone lift that person onto their shoulder so everyone can see them? or would that stand on a chair or even the table so their voice can project. I would say that this author if he had a group large enough would set up a stage area or a podium so someone could stand and say something.

I must admit though, the other objects inside the church, such as the special seat for the speaker of the hour, which we give special meaning. I see his point there is no reason we should give so much credit to those objects....I'm not going to be able to look at the building I worship in the same ever again.

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Quote
"absorb and Christianize pagan religious ides and practices."
wow ... it happened then and it is still happening today...

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Evolution of the architecture
So... whats your point? all buildings are built with a purpose in mind. The churches of today are designed so that one person can teach a vast multitude of people at the same time. There is nothing wrong with that.

Concerning pews... Has the author ever tried to build a single chair? It takes a long time and they are expensive. A pew is easy in comparison.
Have you ever had multiple people attempt to stand up from a pew at once that isn't bolted down? There is the chance that upon standing they would either push the pew back or it could tip over. So bolt them down simple. If you don't believe me sit in a office chair that has wheels (it makes it easier to see) and stand up without holding on to anything. Does the chair move?


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Exegeting the building
I agree with this whole section 100%
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High Cost of Overhead

it would still exist it just wouldn't be as apparent.

As others had already said. True some of the costs can be consolidated. But look at your own personal budget I'm pretty sure we still pay those same expenses and it adds up to 30-60% of our budget.
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Delving deeper
Page 44 "it met in an already existing facility that was large enough to accommodate everyone" is the reason why it is okay for christians to own property specifically set aside for christians to meet.



Offline phbrown

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See, I believe their being on one accord (or, coming together on one accord) is what set the atmosphere.

+1

Offline phbrown

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you know what I just realized ... LGM forum operates exactly how the author describes what the early church operated like.

Everyone here is on equal footing (mainly because you don't know if you are talking to a pastor or something many times)

Anyone can start a thread

it allows us all to have 1 on 1 conversations

and its overhead is lower than most churches.

crazy maybe the internet church is going to be the future like online schools...
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