May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[LaylaMonroe]

On p25, I was fascinated by their explanation of how "Worship became more professional, dramatic and ceremonial." Again, this is all causing serious conflict with everything I value... I've been teaching order and professionalism... even ceremonialism... for over a decade. This is causing a bit of mental chaos.

The sentence that reads "The professional clergy performed the acts of worship while the laity looked on as spectators" really hit me because that's exactly what we do today. Even in the charismatic churches where people participate by hollering "yes!!!" or "amen!" or whatever, and run and dance, etc... there's still a significant element of performance for an audience taking place. When I was young, any time someone would refer to the congregation as an audience, the Bishop would correct them. To this day, I don't use "audience" to refer to the congregation. But the truth is, in most cases, it really IS an audience.

Also on p25, it is noted that under Constantine, the Christian religion finally became legitimate. That makes me wonder, did we [well, not WE, but the early Christians] compromise everything that made us who we were just for the sake of being accepted by the world? Is that what we're still doing today, by introducing little bits and pieces of the world into the church... we're ever-evolving into something else... something other than what we started out as. Little by little... after a while, the "small, insignificant, meaningless" stuff becomes the norm, a historic tradition, commonly accepted, never questioned... and that's that. Is that okay? When does the small stuff actually matter?

[blyempowered]

I love what you're sharing!

[sjonathan02]

The thing of it is, I think it may too late to put the genie back in the bottle as it were.

If you're shook, imagine the masses?

It would take a LOT of maturity and faith to try to right the ship without people jumping off of it.

[LaylaMonroe]

I would agree with that.

RE the chairs, most folks have chairs for the personal feeling of it. If I need to move my chair for more room, I can--that kind of thing. I'm pretty sure most folks aren't concerning themselves with the stadium style arrangement (for example, I never thought about it until this book).


I do, however, believe that changing the seating arrangment for Bible study might be an interesting idea.

We do Bible Study in the fellowship hall. It's much more intimate.

Okay, I had typed a lot more, but then I saw this:

The thing of it is, I think it may too late to put the genie back in the bottle as it were.

If you're shook, imagine the masses?

It would take a LOT of maturity and faith to try to right the ship without people jumping off of it.

And that summed up exactly what I was trying to say, much more succinctly.

So... yeah... I agree. 

[blyempowered]

I agree with Sjohn.....*sigh*

[sjonathan02]

We do Bible Study in the fellowship hall. It's much more intimate.
Okay, I had typed a lot more, but then I saw this:

And that summed up exactly what I was trying to say, much more succinctly.

So... yeah... I agree. 

I swear, I wish we would do that. But, alas, our recording equipment is in the sanctuary.

[LaylaMonroe]

I hate to keep bombarding y'all with my thoughts, but... LOL...

P26 also stood out to me. That second paragraph talks about how the first-century Christians were so opposed to the world's systems and paganism... and I can identify with that even today. We have so many things that we're opposed to as "worldly." We have a lot of churches that teach against Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, and don't get me started on Halloween... but those things are so minor compared to how deeply our roots are influenced by secular practices.

It struck me pretty hard that "this all changed during the fourth century when the church emerged as a public institution" and began to "absorb" and accept secular ideas and practices. And now, they've been a part of our culture for so long that it's not only acceptable, but we find justify or "proof text" it. As I said in the margin: WOW.

But the scary part is that this is exactly what we continue to do. We are STILL adapting to change, conforming to new customs introduced and "Christianizing" them.

I swear, I wish we would do that. But, alas, our recording equipment is in the sanctuary.

Do you HAVE TO record Bible Study??


*************************

Random thought that just popped in my mind: Back to the chair/pew thing: these authors are implying that today's assemblies don't have the opportunity to fellowship/interact because of the way the sanctuaries are designed, but I think that today's church still does a lot of fellowshipping and interacting (even more than I'd like... lol). There are so many auxiliaries and ministries that foster relationships and interaction in today's assemblies.

[blyempowered]

Keep em coming! I'm next when I get a break!

[lordluvr]

Per your random that's what I was leading to

[blyempowered]

Doesn't testimony service come as close to "open participation" as we've seen the last 60 years? A lot of churches are getting rid of this element because of the abuse of it.

[LaylaMonroe]

BUT, I do think that their point isn't about auxiliaries and fellowship, but the overall distinction/separation between clergy and laity. The hierarchy... the assignment of power or the illusion of sacredness.

In pentecostal churches, it is implied that pastors are more anointed, have more power, more ability and just more everything than laity. I think the authors are opposed to that.

[LaylaMonroe]

Doesn't testimony service come as close to "open participation" as we've seen the last 60 years? A lot of churches are getting rid of this element because of the abuse of it.

I think Bible Study comes as close to open participation as we've seen in many decades. (Why'd you choose 60? What happened 60 years ago?) *confused*

But I think what the authors want is something much bigger. They want house-style assemblies patterned after the NT gatherings, where everyone was on equal footing and shared freely (until Paul told the women to shut up... lol).

[LaylaMonroe]

While we're talking about church buildings, I do have this concern, which I think I addressed in an early article on Order in the Church. We DO spend a lot more money on buildings than we should. I don't believe God would approve of that. It's immodest, if nothing else.

The vast majority of tithes and offering in Black, charismatic churches (esp the small or mid-sized ones) goes to facilities (rent/mortgage and utilities), music, and salaries. If you just ponder that for a moment, you'll agree that there's something wrong with that. What is our purpose? I mean, the overall purpose of the body of Christ? 

Knowing Jesus, one would think that his followers would want the majority of their gifts to go toward advancing HIS purposes, HIS way, not our own.

[blyempowered]

I think Bible Study comes as close to open participation as we've seen in many decades. (Why'd you choose 60? What happened 60 years ago?) *confused*

But I think what the authors want is something much bigger. They want house-style assemblies patterned after the NT gatherings, where everyone was on equal footing and shared freely (until Paul told the women to shut up... lol).

60 was the first number that came to my mind.....LOL! And yes I agree, it seems like the author is arguing for equal footing and getting rid of the clergy system. It would be very interesting to see how many would support a nonhierarchical structure in church.

While we're talking about church buildings, I do have this concern, which I think I addressed in an early article on Order in the Church. We DO spend a lot more money on buildings than we should. I don't believe God would approve of that. It's immodest, if nothing else.

The vast majority of tithes and offering in Black, charismatic churches (esp the small or mid-sized ones) goes to facilities (rent/mortgage and utilities), music, and salaries. If you just ponder that for a moment, you'll agree that there's something wrong with that. What is our purpose? I mean, the overall purpose of the body of Christ? 

Knowing Jesus, one would think that his followers would want the majority of their gifts to go toward advancing HIS purposes, HIS way, not our own.

Very good point and sometimes I feel like a part of the problem. In many churches operational & administrative expenses equal a little over 50% of the church budget (probably closer to 60 but I know there are variations). This is why (not totally why but still....) I believe churches should have their budget information on the internet for public visibility.

If part of our big purpose is to to be light in the world and be the change agents of Jesus Christ, how can that be done if a good majority of our money is spent on buildings instead of the work of ministry.

And yes, very good point about Bible Study. I know it's not marketable (which to me, is what a lot of these issues boil down to) but I'd like to see a movement in black churches back to testimony service. To hear people testify of what God has done for them is encouraging! Also back to the bible study, we had a preacher (one of the candidates) come in and basically preach during bible study. I'm old school and kind of small church oriented and when I think about "bible study" I'm thinking about a discussion, not so much one person standing and doing all the talking!

[blyempowered]

On p25, I was fascinated by their explanation of how "Worship became more professional, dramatic and ceremonial." Again, this is all causing serious conflict with everything I value... I've been teaching order and professionalism... even ceremonialism... for over a decade. This is causing a bit of mental chaos.

The sentence that reads "The professional clergy performed the acts of worship while the laity looked on as spectators" really hit me because that's exactly what we do today. Even in the charismatic churches where people participate by hollering "yes!!!" or "amen!" or whatever, and run and dance, etc... there's still a significant element of performance for an audience taking place. When I was young, any time someone would refer to the congregation as an audience, the Bishop would correct them. To this day, I don't use "audience" to refer to the congregation. But the truth is, in most cases, it really IS an audience.

Also on p25, it is noted that under Constantine, the Christian religion finally became legitimate. That makes me wonder, did we [well, not WE, but the early Christians] compromise everything that made us who we were just for the sake of being accepted by the world? Is that what we're still doing today, by introducing little bits and pieces of the world into the church... we're ever-evolving into something else... something other than what we started out as. Little by little... after a while, the "small, insignificant, meaningless" stuff becomes the norm, a historic tradition, commonly accepted, never questioned... and that's that. Is that okay? When does the small stuff actually matter?

You'll see a lot of this theme in chapter 3 but it seems like the history of institutional Christianity is "as long as it works it's fine....come on no big deal." Compromise and pragmatism is the middle name of institutional Christianity. As long as it's marketable and brings in bodies, that's all that matters (the mindset historically). To answer your question, to be honest, idk. I'll tackle this more later but everything you said is so....wow....mind-boggling! 

[sjonathan02]

I hate to keep bombarding y'all with my thoughts, but... LOL...

P26 also stood out to me. That second paragraph talks about how the first-century Christians were so opposed to the world's systems and paganism... and I can identify with that even today. We have so many things that we're opposed to as "worldly." We have a lot of churches that teach against Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, and don't get me started on Halloween... but those things are so minor compared to how deeply our roots are influenced by secular practices.

It struck me pretty hard that "this all changed during the fourth century when the church emerged as a public institution" and began to "absorb" and accept secular ideas and practices. And now, they've been a part of our culture for so long that it's not only acceptable, but we find justify or "proof text" it. As I said in the margin: WOW.

But the scary part is that this is exactly what we continue to do. We are STILL adapting to change, conforming to new customs introduced and "Christianizing" them.

Do you HAVE TO record Bible Study??

*************************

Random thought that just popped in my mind: Back to the chair/pew thing: these authors are implying that today's assemblies don't have the opportunity to fellowship/interact because of the way the sanctuaries are designed, but I think that today's church still does a lot of fellowshipping and interacting (even more than I'd like... lol). There are so many auxiliaries and ministries that foster relationships and interaction in today's assemblies.

Now, you KNOW we don't HAVE TO do anything. 

And, even if we did, there's a way around the use of our current equipment that might cost a couple of bucks but could be well worth it.

[sjonathan02]

While we're talking about church buildings, I do have this concern, which I think I addressed in an early article on Order in the Church. We DO spend a lot more money on buildings than we should. I don't believe God would approve of that. It's immodest, if nothing else.

The vast majority of tithes and offering in Black, charismatic churches (esp the small or mid-sized ones) goes to facilities (rent/mortgage and utilities), music, and salaries. If you just ponder that for a moment, you'll agree that there's something wrong with that. What is our purpose? I mean, the overall purpose of the body of Christ? 

Knowing Jesus, one would think that his followers would want the majority of their gifts to go toward advancing HIS purposes, HIS way, not our own.

One of the reasons why we DON'T have a keyboardist.

Now, I will say that even if we met in homes, money would be needed for clean-up if for nothing else. 

[LaylaMonroe]

One of the reasons why we DON'T have a keyboardist.

Now, I will say that even if we met in homes, money would be needed for clean-up if for nothing else. 

Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, you'll still have to put some money into a home church (increased utilities, cleaning, furnishings, supplies (hygiene products, for example), etc. But the cost would be SIGNIFICANTLY less than what it is today.

We just can't avoid the fact that the average church spends an immodest amount of its intake on those three things. Most black, Charismatic churches (not counting mega-churches, though it's probably true there, too) spend next to nothing on foreign missions, community outreach and evangelism. That's the core of our very existence, isn't it?

[blyempowered]

Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, you'll still have to put some money into a home church (increased utilities, cleaning, furnishings, supplies (hygiene products, for example), etc. But the cost would be SIGNIFICANTLY less than what it is today.

We just can't avoid the fact that the average church spends an immodest amount of its intake on those three things. Most black, Charismatic churches (not counting mega-churches, though it's probably true there, too) spend next to nothing on foreign missions, community outreach and evangelism. That's the core of our very existence, isn't it?

Not to some. Some think it's just about winning souls and going to heaven. 

[LaylaMonroe]

Well hold on a sec, now... it IS about winning souls and going to heaven. That's our ultimate goal: to reconcile all God's people with Him - so that we can all reunite in heaven. Our duty while we're here is to share the gospel of Jesus Christ by demonstrating His love and preaching His word. We are charged with magnifying and glorifying Him on earth so that others will choose Him as well. And those who choose Him and live holy, will be caught up to meet Him in the air. Right? Our goal is to win souls.

But according to our financial records, our goal is to attract and impress people.