May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[blyempowered]

You do realize, don't you, that many, MANY churches no longer have pews, right?

Yep!

Pews, chairs... Same difference. Same set-up, which I think is the authors' issue.

Right!

[lordluvr]

From what I remember, I think the author's main contention regarding setup was that there was little opportunity for face-to-face interaction and flexibility.  With that in mind, there's a huge difference in using pews vs chairs.  I can't really speak for how too many churches use their chairs, but I've seen (even in my own church) how using chairs does allow for more flexibility and the ability for more "intimate" fellowship.

For about the first 9 years I was at my church, we had wooden pews.  We then did a re-model and switched to chairs.  Since the switch, pastors and speakers regularly come off of the stage area to interact with the congregation.  Bible Studies are often done with the chairs re-arranged for face-to-face interaction, and we also now have more flexibility with regard to the use of the sanctuary as well.

[LaylaMonroe]

As it relates to Sunday services, most churches do not arrange their chairs to foster face-to-face interaction. In fact, most churches arrange their chairs as though they were pews.

But I'm on the BB. Can't wait to get to the office to share my thoughts. This chapter was something else. Really got me to thinking, but my thoughts tended to wander from what they were addressing to a bigger picture. I'll be back.

[lordluvr]

As it relates to Sunday services, most churches do not arrange their chairs to foster face-to-face interaction. In fact, most churches arrange their chairs as though they were pews.

But I'm on the BB. Can't wait to get to the office to share my thoughts. This chapter was something else. Really got me to thinking, but my thoughts tended to wander from what they were addressing to a bigger picture. I'll be back.

I agree, most churches that I've visited that have chairs do not arrange their chairs to foster face-to-face interaction.  It wasn't my objective to state what most churches do.  Instead, it was only my intent to assert that because of using chairs, the possibility for face-to-face interaction now exists.  This was a counter what I felt was the assertion of the author(s), that there was no possibility of it. 

[LaylaMonroe]

What good is a possibility if most aren't taking advantage of it? I mean, technically, even pews can be rearranged to foster a more intimate setting. I've seen that done. *just asking*

[blyempowered]

From what I remember, I think the author's main contention regarding setup was that there was little opportunity for face-to-face interaction and flexibility.  With that in mind, there's a huge difference in using pews vs chairs.  I can't really speak for how too many churches use their chairs, but I've seen (even in my own church) how using chairs does allow for more flexibility and the ability for more "intimate" fellowship.

For about the first 9 years I was at my church, we had wooden pews.  We then did a re-model and switched to chairs.  Since the switch, pastors and speakers regularly come off of the stage area to interact with the congregation.  Bible Studies are often done with the chairs re-arranged for face-to-face interaction, and we also now have more flexibility with regard to the use of the sanctuary as well.

Love this! When our church eventually rebuilds (don't know when that will happen) I'd love for us to do chairs instead of pews but our church is a little traditional (not very) so they may want pews....LOL! Honestly, I'd love to see them do chairs.

And another thing: I found it interesting reading about the traditional pew chairs. I knew a little about the "cathedra" because it was mentioned a lot when our former former pastor was consecrated Bishop in our church (and that was the most controversial thing up in our baptist church....LOL!). I have said before that I am in favor of getting rid of traditional pulpit setup and not having ANYONE sit in the pulpit! In my fantasy church, all speakers would sit in the 1st pew or in the 1st row of chairs and then come up to speak. As a matter of fact, I'd probably have the podium on the floor.

[LaylaMonroe]

I wonder how many folk would be willing to go to a Sunday service that was not designed in the traditional pew format but in a design in which everyone could participate

Btw, Churchy, there are quite a few assemblies springing up here and there that have this kind of set-up. JBII's church is one of them. Their sanctuary is furnished with couches and tables. Or at least it was. I think they may have outgrown that now. But people WERE open to it. Of course the "church folks" think she's off her rocker...

[blyempowered]

Btw, Churchy, there are quite a few assemblies springing up here and there that have this kind of set-up. JBII's church is one of them. Their sanctuary is furnished with couches and tables. Or at least it was. I think they may have outgrown that now. But people WERE open to it. Of course the "church folks" think she's off her rocker...

LOL! Right! That's good!

[lordluvr]

What good is a possibility if most aren't taking advantage of it? I mean, technically, even pews can be rearranged to foster a more intimate setting. I've seen that done. *just asking*

I can't speak for what others are or aren't doing.  I can only speack for my own experience, and we are.  It's not a regular thing, but again, without that possibility existing, we wouldn't have done it in the first place.  Regarding the re-arrangement of pews, that was not a possibility for us.  Ours were bolted down.

[LaylaMonroe]

Nobody sits in the pulpit area in my church (our pulpit is small). However, we do have "special seating" for the pastor and first lady, and special seating designated for the clergy. Another lady and I are the only two clergymembers who don't sit on the front row.

[blyempowered]

I can't speak for what others are or aren't doing.  I can only speack for my own experience, and we are.  It's not a regular thing, but again, without that possibility existing, we wouldn't have done it in the first place.  Regarding the re-arrangement of pews, that was not a possibility for us.  Ours were bolted down.

Ours are bolted down mentally and physically.....I think.....LOL!!

Nobody sits in the pulpit area in my church (our pulpit is small). However, we do have "special seating" for the pastor and first lady, and special seating designated for the clergy. Another lady and I are the only two clergymembers who don't sit on the front row.

Oh ok.

[lordluvr]

Nobody sits in the pulpit area in my church (our pulpit is small). However, we do have "special seating" for the pastor and first lady, and special seating designated for the clergy. Another lady and I are the only two clergymembers who don't sit on the front row.

Yeah, we're the same way.  My pastor sits on the front row.  I also sit on the front row, on the other side of the sanctuary.  There are seats in the corner of the stage area, but we don't use them.

[blyempowered]

And what about Constantine? What's your view of him as far as his significance?

[LaylaMonroe]

Okay, I'm at work, so I'm just gonna flip through the pages of Ch2 and share the thoughts I wrote in the margins, and stuff I underlined, and "wow"s and all that....

The first sentence that impacted me was on p14, "When Christianity was born, it was the only religion on the planet that had no sacred objects, no sacred persons, and no sacred spaces." That was heavy to me because today, we have a lot... the sanctuary is sacred and I actually teach a class on that. The communion table is sacred. The communion elements are sacred. The clergy vestments are sacred. I could go on and on.

Also, a random thought that hit me several times throughout this chapter: I'm not really concerned about taking things from ancient Judaism. That's okay with me. I'm not thrilled about taking things from pagans though, but I did have a thought about that further on in the chapter. I'll share that when I get to it.

[LaylaMonroe]

p19, they seem to be implying that Sunday became "THE" day of worship when Constantine decreed it a holiday. I thought that happened earlier on when the early Christians started meeting to commemorate the day Jesus rose from the dead??

Either way, y'all know I believe in keeping the original Sabbath, so this is a sore point for me, personally. If Sunday became "the day" because of Constantine's decree, it's not the end of the world, but it's not a good thing. I mean, I do agree that at the end of the day, we have to be holy EVERY day and I doubt God is sending anyone to hell because they went to church on the "wrong" day. BUT... I don't think it's okay for us to dismiss God's decree just because of tradition and lack of understanding/knowledge.

Back to this subject, I would be curious to know who named the days of the week. Anybody remember that from 4th grade? LOL. Yeah, so if Constantine chose Sunday to honor the sun gods, I'm like *shrug* so what? WE don't honor the sun gods... so... *shrug*

[sjonathan02]

Pews, chairs... Same difference. Same set-up, which I think is the authors' issue.

Not the same.  Same set-up as in row by row versus, say, a circle?

Ok, just seeing the chair 'dialogue'. I agree with LL, at least having the possibility is a good thing.

As for the naming of the days of the week, isn't that a Roman concept?

Sunday was for Sun (or Sun god)

Monday was for the Moon

I forget the rest. 

[LaylaMonroe]

Also found it interesting on the bottom of p19 that they referred to Constantine as a "chief apostle."

p20 - reference to Palestine becoming known as the Holy Land in the sixth century. I can't put my finger on it... but this kinda bugs me, if it's true. I think it reflects the commercialization and marketing of "STUFF" in the name of God.... kinda like Christmas, Easter, and even church in general. I'm sure that wasn't the intention back then, but still. You know how much money people spend to travel to the Holy Land every year?

Not the same.  Same set-up as in row by row versus, say, a circle?

I won't make up a statistic, but I'd be comfortable guessing that probably 95% or more of the churches that use chairs for their regular Sunday worship services set them up in rows, just like pews are set up... that's what I meant by "same difference." For the authors, the chairs present the same problem as the pews because it's not the furniture choice, it's the arrangement of the furniture. I'd guess that if the chairs were arranged in a circle, with no stage/pulpit, that would probably nullify their argument.

[LaylaMonroe]

Not the same.  Same set-up as in row by row versus, say, a circle?

Ok, just seeing the chair 'dialogue'. I agree with LL, at least having the possibility is a good thing.

As for the naming of the days of the week, isn't that a Roman concept?

Sunday was for Sun (or Sun god)

Monday was for the Moon

I forget the rest. 

I agree that having the possibility is good. I still say that having it and not using it means nada (to me). Most new, remodeled, modern, contemporary churches these days are using chairs. But they're still set up like pews on Sunday, which kinda makes the whole thing moot.  I mean yeah, they CAN move them around... but they don't. LOL.

IRT the days... that sounds familiar. We really have NO choice whatsoever than to use the days that are named to honor these gods... so if that's not a bad thing, why is all this other stuff so bad?

[sjonathan02]

I agree that having the possibility is good. I still say that having it and not using it means nada (to me). Most new, remodeled, modern, contemporary churches these days are using chairs. But they're still set up like pews on Sunday, which kinda makes the whole thing moot.  I mean yeah, they CAN move them around... but they don't. LOL.

IRT the days... that sounds familiar. We really have NO choice whatsoever than to use the days that are named to honor these gods... so if that's not a bad thing, why is all this other stuff so bad?

I would agree with that.

RE the chairs, most folks have chairs for the personal feeling of it. If I need to move my chair for more room, I can--that kind of thing. I'm pretty sure most folks aren't concerning themselves with the stadium style arrangement (for example, I never thought about it until this book).


I do, however, believe that changing the seating arrangment for Bible study might be an interesting idea.

[LaylaMonroe]

The communion thing is kinda bugging me. I'm reminded of that video:

BISHOP MARK CARRAWAY'S PRAISE BREAK ON THE COMMUNION TABLE

Remember that? Yeah, so I was really ticked off... aside from the fact that it was a ridiculously emotional display of flesh, I was angry that this man danced on a table that I was taught for all these years was sacred and not to even be TOUCHED - let alone DANCED ON!!! 

Over the weekend, we were putting the church back together after my cousin's wedding and we couldn't remember where things went. My cousin's daughter put some stuff on the communion table and I gasped and did the whole "noooooooo!!! get that! Quickly!!" Not because I worship a table or anything.... I'm just very much into order. It was drilled in me. And it's part of my calling. So I always react to stuff that's out of order. But is that really out of order?

At every church I've ever been in, there's an ORDER for preparing communion. First, no one is allowed in the area except those who are preparing. Secondly, you wash your hands. Then, you join in prayer. Then, you begin to prepare the elements in solemn quietness, with the occasional "thank ya Jesus" uttered softly. Some of the old mothers might hum a blood song. That's the norm in EVERY Apostolic church, across every organization. It's also the standard in nearly every Pentecostal church, and most established non-denominational churches.

Why??