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Author Topic: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna  (Read 85217 times)

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #520 on: June 10, 2011, 11:51:14 AM »
*shrug*

:D
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Offline phbrown

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #521 on: June 10, 2011, 12:14:08 PM »
I figured that.

Try to catch up if you can. We miss your input. Plus, we need some balance. Jonathan is over here trying to start a revolution and shut down all the churches. LMBO! :D

Nah seriously, we do miss your input (and Chs 4-5 are really, reeeeally good). I'll start on 6 tonight.

ROFL!

Offline lordluvr

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #522 on: June 10, 2011, 01:00:47 PM »
Ok, I've got to buckle down and start reading.  Shoot, I'm still on ch 3.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #523 on: June 10, 2011, 01:12:38 PM »
Ok, I've got to buckle down and start reading.  Shoot, I'm still on ch 3.


I wish I could tell you the part to skip ahead to, but since you don't have pg #s on the Kindle, I can't even tell you... just skip ahead a few pages. The beginning of 3 is boring, but it does pick up in the end. 4 and 5 are just downright good.
When you're in love you don't want to fall asleep bc reality is finally better than your dreams.

Offline phbrown

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #524 on: June 10, 2011, 03:20:29 PM »
I wish I could tell you the part to skip ahead to, but since you don't have pg #s on the Kindle, I can't even tell you... just skip ahead a few pages. The beginning of 3 is boring, but it does pick up in the end. 4 and 5 are just downright good.

ROFL! I just realized you posted this at 12:12 CDT (I got the D this time instead of the S)

blyempowered

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #525 on: June 10, 2011, 03:43:42 PM »
Oh yeah, getting in backtracking mode:

LaRue was talking about a little earlier how before you could become an ordained elder or something you had to go through a process that may take years. For example, my dad has talked about how for years in Baptist before you "preached" you had to be a trustee, then a deacon and then after being a deacon you could preach. So there was a basic chain. I'm not too sure if I agree with having that BUT at the same time, I understand and respect that logic. Idk if this is good or bad, but it does seem like the process to becoming a pastor/ordained minister has become difficult on one end but also very easy on another end.

I don't have a problem with training but some things that are taught are not essential to the message and theme of Jesus Christ, nor what the apostles taught. Some things are subjective that are taught.

blyempowered

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #526 on: June 10, 2011, 04:37:37 PM »
So we've talked a little about chapter 5, particularly the "classism" of preaching. But I want to ask some more questions and get you all's feedback on:

1. Did you agree or disagree with the author's view of ordination being a fallacy and that it creates a "special caste of Christianity?" He says "In the first century, the laying on of hands merely meant the endorsement or affirmation of a function, not the installment into an office or the giving of special status." Do you believe that the current system of ordination in many denominations and organizations support the idea of ordination being a "giving of special status?" Do you believe ordination can be done without the "hierarchal" attitude? Why or why not?

2. Calvin and some of the Reformers argued that the pastor when speaking speaks in the name of God and that "A Christian preacher is a minister of God who is set apart, yea, he is an angel of God, a very bishop sent by God, a savior of many people, a king and prince in the Kingdom of Christ. Do you agree or disagree with the pastor being viewed in this light? Do you believe that questioning or challenging the pastor is a form of contempt or ridicule? Why or why not?

3. According to the author, Luther argued that "The Christian Congregation never should assemble unless God's Word is preached and prayer is made, no matter for how brief a time this may be." Do you agree or disagree?

4. Has the current system of pastoring put too many burdens and responsibilities (preaching, administration, visiting the sick, visiting members, etc) on him or her? Explain.

5. Does the "professionalization" of ministry help the church, hurt the church or no harm at all?

6. What can be done to decrease the stress of the contemporary pastor's job?

Offline lordluvr

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #527 on: June 11, 2011, 07:43:33 AM »
I wish I could tell you the part to skip ahead to, but since you don't have pg #s on the Kindle, I can't even tell you... just skip ahead a few pages. The beginning of 3 is boring, but it does pick up in the end. 4 and 5 are just downright good.
For me, it's about making the time. My schedule has totally changed, and I don't ride the train much anymore, so those no-brainer opportunities to read have diminished.  Now, I actually have to make time for it.  Ugh!

Offline lordluvr

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #528 on: June 11, 2011, 10:11:28 AM »
Like you guys already know, I'm way behind in my reading.  When I come to the discussions, you guys have written graduate thesis papers, and it's way too much for me to even try to catch up with or respond to.  So, what I propose to do is comment on whatever happens to be on my mind at the time.  I may go back and tackle some of what I saw in chapter 3.  If it overlaps something that has been previously discussed, I apologize. Shoot me a link to that discussion and I'll be good. 

There are a few things currently on my mind, but I will only tackle one at the moment:

Frank keeps pointing back to I Cor. 14 as an example of the basis for the structure of the 1st century church.  I have a problem with that.  First, the purpose of that chapter is to exhort the bretheren to make sure that they're edifying one another and not just themselves.  The primary focus was on the speaking of tongues and how everyone is edified ONLY when there is an interpreter.  So, when Frank uses verse 26 to show the structure of the 1st century church, I think he's a little off base.  Granted, Paul DOES say, "when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation."  But, when you take that verse and put it into the context of the entire chapter and include the last sentence of verse 26, you come away feeling like Paul just wants to be sure that everyone is edified when they do come together.  This verse does not indicate that EVERY time saints get together EVERYONE will have something to add.  He's just saying that when you do have something to add, make sure it edifies the group and not just yourself.  So, that's my first bone of contention against the author's clamoring to get back to the 1st century way of doing things.  I'll add more in a seperate post.

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #529 on: June 11, 2011, 10:33:46 AM »
Like you guys already know, I'm way behind in my reading.  When I come to the discussions, you guys have written graduate thesis papers, and it's way too much for me to even try to catch up with or respond to.  So, what I propose to do is comment on whatever happens to be on my mind at the time.  I may go back and tackle some of what I saw in chapter 3.  If it overlaps something that has been previously discussed, I apologize. Shoot me a link to that discussion and I'll be good. 

There are a few things currently on my mind, but I will only tackle one at the moment:

Frank keeps pointing back to I Cor. 14 as an example of the basis for the structure of the 1st century church.  I have a problem with that.  First, the purpose of that chapter is to exhort the bretheren to make sure that they're edifying one another and not just themselves.  The primary focus was on the speaking of tongues and how everyone is edified ONLY when there is an interpreter.  So, when Frank uses verse 26 to show the structure of the 1st century church, I think he's a little off base.  Granted, Paul DOES say, "when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation."  But, when you take that verse and put it into the context of the entire chapter and include the last sentence of verse 26, you come away feeling like Paul just wants to be sure that everyone is edified when they do come together.  This verse does not indicate that EVERY time saints get together EVERYONE will have something to add.  He's just saying that when you do have something to add, make sure it edifies the group and not just yourself.  So, that's my first bone of contention against the author's clamoring to get back to the 1st century way of doing things.  I'll add more in a seperate post.

That's an excellent observation to which I completely agree.
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blyempowered

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #530 on: June 11, 2011, 10:47:43 AM »
Very interesting LL!

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #531 on: June 11, 2011, 12:43:38 PM »
I agree, LL, but I don't think that undoes the meat of the issue. I think they are both misusing and overusing I Cor 14, but I still think the vision they have of the early church is pretty accurate. More later, I'm on my BB.
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Offline lordluvr

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #532 on: June 11, 2011, 12:55:31 PM »
Well, that's just my first point.  I have more, but I didn't want to inundate the thread with my musings all in one post.

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #533 on: June 11, 2011, 02:54:16 PM »
Well, that's just my first point.  I have more, but I didn't want to inundate the thread with my musings all in one post.
You mean you didn't wanna pull a Churchy?
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline lordluvr

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #534 on: June 11, 2011, 03:41:55 PM »
Pretty much.  LOL

Offline lordluvr

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #535 on: June 11, 2011, 10:22:42 PM »
Ok, so I'm now in chapter 4.  Up to this point, I've read a lot about the liturgy of the modern-day church, and its origins etc.  I've read about how the modern-day Sunday morning worship service isn't biblical and how it doesn't match the model of the 1st century church and so on.  I've been reserving comment because I wanted to see if there would be any discussion (from the authors) relating to the ENTIRE church experience as it compares to the 1st century church.  I may be wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that there won't be much discussion along those lines.  Why?  Because it would weaken the premise of the authors.  Granted, the Sunday morning worship experience, in most cases, is more of a monologue.  In some cases, the sermons rival the structure and appeal of the Greek rhetorical speeches.  For the most part, the order of service doesn't leave room for input by anyone other than the pastor or guest speaker.  But, that's just Sunday morning.  I can't speak for anyone else's church, but my church meets multiple times during the week.  On Mondays, we have a prayer service where, guess what?  EVERYONE is encouraged to contribute.  We have Bible Study on Wednesdays, where there is a facilitator, but again, guess what?  EVERYONE is encouraged to participate.  We have fellowships and gatherings where, again, EVERYONE is encouraged to participate.  And by participate, I mean contribute meaningfully to the edification of each other by the use of our gifts.

My point is this:  If the authors are going to compare the 1st century church to the church of today and promote the "organic" church, I think that all factors must come into play in order for there to be a good basis for comparison.  Having said that, I am NOT saying that there shouldn't be changes made in the church today.  What I am saying is, based upon what I've read so far, the picture painted of today's church is, in my opinion, bleaker than the reality. 

blyempowered

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #536 on: June 11, 2011, 10:27:39 PM »


Great points LL! I just feel like the author is arguing that if the Bible is suppose to be our guide then everything as it pertains to church should be done by the Bible.

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #537 on: June 11, 2011, 10:59:14 PM »
Ok, so I'm now in chapter 4.  Up to this point, I've read a lot about the liturgy of the modern-day church, and its origins etc.  I've read about how the modern-day Sunday morning worship service isn't biblical and how it doesn't match the model of the 1st century church and so on.  I've been reserving comment because I wanted to see if there would be any discussion (from the authors) relating to the ENTIRE church experience as it compares to the 1st century church.  I may be wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that there won't be much discussion along those lines.  Why?  Because it would weaken the premise of the authors.  Granted, the Sunday morning worship experience, in most cases, is more of a monologue.  In some cases, the sermons rival the structure and appeal of the Greek rhetorical speeches.  For the most part, the order of service doesn't leave room for input by anyone other than the pastor or guest speaker.  But, that's just Sunday morning.  I can't speak for anyone else's church, but my church meets multiple times during the week.  On Mondays, we have a prayer service where, guess what?  EVERYONE is encouraged to contribute.  We have Bible Study on Wednesdays, where there is a facilitator, but again, guess what?  EVERYONE is encouraged to participate.  We have fellowships and gatherings where, again, EVERYONE is encouraged to participate.  And by participate, I mean contribute meaningfully to the edification of each other by the use of our gifts.

My point is this:  If the authors are going to compare the 1st century church to the church of today and promote the "organic" church, I think that all factors must come into play in order for there to be a good basis for comparison.  Having said that, I am NOT saying that there shouldn't be changes made in the church today.  What I am saying is, based upon what I've read so far, the picture painted of today's church is, in my opinion, bleaker than the reality.

I believe you've raised some points that have been discussed (and, that's fine, btw).  The authors take is rather slanted (kinda like watching Faux News).

With that said, I would contend that Sunday mornings could find a way to be more like the rest of the week (for those who meet beyond bible study).

I also believe that fellowship for fun is just as Godly as coming together for prayer.
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline lordluvr

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #538 on: June 12, 2011, 12:32:39 AM »
With that said, I would contend that Sunday mornings could find a way to be more like the rest of the week (for those who meet beyond bible study).

I'm actually ok with at least one aspect of Sunday morning worship service- the sermon.  Ok, so there's no participation on the part of the others.  So what?  Sometimes that's needful.  Not everyone is a teacher or pastor or evangelist.  Some people just need to be taught.  In addition, there are unbelievers that need to hear the Word of God.  So, I don't see anything wrong with a God-inspired sermon. 

Now, some of that other stuff associated with Sunday mornings, I wish we'd do away with. 

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #539 on: June 12, 2011, 07:34:45 AM »
I'm actually ok with at least one aspect of Sunday morning worship service- the sermon.  Ok, so there's no participation on the part of the others.  So what? Sometimes that's needful.  Not everyone is a teacher or pastor or evangelist.  Some people just need to be taught.  In addition, there are unbelievers that need to hear the Word of God.  So, I don't see anything wrong with a God-inspired sermon. 

Now, some of that other stuff associated with Sunday mornings, I wish we'd do away with.

I believe the 'so what' is the non-biblical nature of the sermon as done in today's churches. 

Are you stating that unbelievers and some people cannot hear the Word of God through conversation or a bible study type of set up on Sunday mornings as well as any other day of the week?
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.
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