True Sopranos

[jgause2]

Simple Question:

How big is your soprano section?  How many "true" sopranos do you have?  When i say true sopranos, means they can naturally sing those high notes out loud without struggle...as oppose to the ones who sing falsetto all the time.

[sjonathan02]

Simple Question:

How big is your soprano section?  How many "true" sopranos do you have?  When i say true sopranos, means they can naturally sing those high notes out loud without struggle...as oppose to the ones who sing falsetto all the time.

I have three and they can hit their naturally. At the same time, we don't do many songs where they have to really go beyond their range (read: not too many Ricky Dillard, James Hall songs ).

[2KlubKlarity]

I have three and they can hit their naturally. At the same time, we don't do many songs where they have to really go beyond their range (read: not too many Ricky Dillard, James Hall songs ).

Exactly! Its all about the songs. I prefer for my group not to do those songs with higher soprano, because some of the ladies will sing those notes and sing them vocally wrong! (I hate singing that I know will be damaging in the long run). I enforce healthy singing, but it won't produce that "sound" we are used to hearing. If only I can do the 2 together! Uggh!

[LaylaMonroe]

Our choir (which is brand new) has 4 sopranos, and all 4 of them are true sopranos (and each are excellent and experienced singers, too - thank GOD!!). They actually have more richness and volume than the altos.

[JoanHall]

I'm a strong believer in changing the key of a song if the key on the recording isn't right for my choir.  I wouldn't decline to do a song just because it's too high.

[LaylaMonroe]

I'm a strong believer in changing the key of a song if the key on the recording isn't right for my choir.  I wouldn't decline to do a song just because it's too high.

I tend to agree with you a lot. This time is no different. 

[kodacolor]

Exactly! Its all about the songs. I prefer for my group not to do those songs with higher soprano, because some of the ladies will sing those notes and sing them vocally wrong! (I hate singing that I know will be damaging in the long run). I enforce healthy singing, but it won't produce that "sound" we are used to hearing. If only I can do the 2 together! Uggh!

I think I know what you're talking about.  Check out Eric Arceneaux at www.ericrcno.com.  On his website he has a blog about how he learned to sing.  He talk about his time in school learning the classical style of singing, techniques that hurt more than they helped, and bridging the gap from classical singing to contemporary singing.  He also has a BUNCH of youtube videos of him singing and giving mini lessons. He has a video about high notes (and belting is also in the video).  Maybe what he's doing is in the same vein as what you're trying to do.

[Docdb04]

I'm a strong believer in changing the key of a song if the key on the recording isn't right for my choir.  I wouldn't decline to do a song just because it's too high.

I agree with you, even though I don't do it often.  I will change the voicing on the song before I change the key of the song.  A lot of songs that I do for our choir, have high sopranos (according to our choir). .  When I change the voicing, their alto becomes our soprano, their tenor becomes our alto and their soprano becomes our tenor.

Overall, we have about 4 sopranos that can hit those high notes naturally. 

[JoanHall]

I will change the voicing on the song before I change the key of the song. 

Now that's an interesting idea that I've never tried!  So then you would have a lot of songs where the tenors carry the melody.  That could be good if you have tenors that have trouble hearing harmony parts and sometimes end up doubling the sopranos anyway.  I need to try that!

[Docdb04]

Now that's an interesting idea that I've never tried!  So then you would have a lot of songs where the tenors carry the melody.   That could be good if you have tenors that have trouble hearing harmony parts and sometimes end up doubling the sopranos anyway.  I need to try that!

Yes. 

[THE WOLFMAN]

[under13]

Thats my show!

[LaylaMonroe]

I agree with you, even though I don't do it often.  I will change the voicing on the song before I change the key of the song.  A lot of songs that I do for our choir, have high sopranos (according to our choir). .  When I change the voicing, their alto becomes our soprano, their tenor becomes our alto and their soprano becomes our tenor.

Overall, we have about 4 sopranos that can hit those high notes naturally. 

Now that's an interesting idea that I've never tried!  So then you would have a lot of songs where the tenors carry the melody.  That could be good if you have tenors that have trouble hearing harmony parts and sometimes end up doubling the sopranos anyway.  I need to try that!

My former P&W leader used to do that a lot, and it simply DOES. NOT. WORK. FOR. ME. I suppose if you have either non-singers who just sing whatever you tell them, or really good singers who can sing anything, it might work well. But if you have folks like me, who are somewhere in between, it just doesn't work. Although I'm not a powerhouse vocalist, I have been singing in choirs for decades, and I have a really great ear and great intuition. I know what my part is SUPPOSED TO BE, I can usually tell what changes are happening, where the song is going and all that. I can harmonize fairly well and find my note, according to (what I assume would be theory?) my past experience. When you change the parts like that, it's very hard for me (an alto) to sing the tenor part because my brain will naturally go to what should be the alto line of a song.

As usual, I don't have the right vocabulary to explain what I'm trying to say, but I hate when directors teach that way. It just takes away the intuitive part.

[sjonathan02]

My former P&W leader used to do that a lot, and it simply DOES. NOT. WORK. FOR. ME. I suppose if you have either non-singers who just sing whatever you tell them, or really good singers who can sing anything, it might work well. But if you have folks like me, who are somewhere in between, it just doesn't work. Although I'm not a powerhouse vocalist, I have been singing in choirs for decades, and I have a really great ear and great intuition. I know what my part is SUPPOSED TO BE, I can usually tell what changes are happening, where the song is going and all that. I can harmonize fairly well and find my note, according to (what I assume would be theory?) my past experience. When you change the parts like that, it's very hard for me (an alto) to sing the tenor part because my brain will naturally go to what should be the alto line of a song.

As usual, I don't have the right vocabulary to explain what I'm trying to say, but I hate when directors teach that way. It just takes away the intuitive part.

 


If you're singing the alto part, whichever section has been given that part, you'd be singing with them, no? Simply line yourself up next to that particular section for that particular song. So, in Docb's example, you'd be a soprano.  

You'd still stand with the altos if there were only one song where the director had to do this. And, if you're the only person having this difficulty, this would be a quick fix.

You could always pull a Milli Vanilli for the one song.   

The thing about singing any song is not to get locked into how the song is sung on the CD or album and possessing the ability to know the other singing parts as well (with the exception of Baritone/Bass, perhaps ).

[THE WOLFMAN]

Thats my show!

werd, i was hooked....

the end of the series was quite poignant.

[LaylaMonroe]

If you're singing the alto part, whichever section has been given that part, you'd be singing with them, no? Simply line yourself up next to that particular section for that particular song. So, in Docb's example, you'd be a soprano.  

You'd still stand with the altos if there were only one song where the director had to do this. And, if you're the only person having this difficulty, this would be a quick fix.

You could always pull a Milli Vanilli for the one song.   

The thing about singing any song is not to get locked into how the song is sung on the CD or album and possessing the ability to know the other singing parts as well (with the exception of Baritone/Bass, perhaps ).

I can't really explain it other than to reiterate what I've already said. LOL. I just have an ear and an intuition. And whether I know the song or not, if I can hear the key and the chords, then I can find what should be my note. If I'm hearing in my head where I should theoretically be, and you're telling me I have to sing below that (the tenor part), it's going to be hard for me to make that stick. And yes, it is MUCH worse if I do know the song and have already registered the original version and parts in my mind. But honestly, even without that, it's still hard for me to sing a tenor part if I'm with the alto section.

Because I used to direct and teach parts, I can always pick out all three (or four) parts in most songs. Even if I've never heard the song, I can easily figure out what the 3 parts are likely to be. But I still have a hard time when they do that. In fact, in the last Praise Team I sang with, we all had a hard time with that, but none of us knew what the problem was until one day I spoke up and then everyone realized that was exactly what they were struggling with. In most songs, sopranos carry the melody. In a few, altos might. It's very odd for the alto to sing two steps below the melody. If the alto was singing the melody in the original, then it's easier to learn it with the voicing changes. But if the soprano sang the melody, and now you've got tenors singing the melody, it's very difficult because altos would be used to harmonizing against the sopranos.

Again, I can't really explain it. I just know it's difficult when you have your ear/intuition telling you what SHOULD BE your part and your director teaching you something different. Fortunately, I don't have to deal with that in my church choir (or at least I haven't had to YET). *crossing my fingers*

[betnich]

I agree with you, even though I don't do it often.  I will change the voicing on the song before I change the key of the song.  A lot of songs that I do for our choir, have high sopranos (according to our choir). .  When I change the voicing, their alto becomes our soprano, their tenor becomes our alto and their soprano becomes our tenor.

I have started to do this with our choir - on OH, WHAT HE'S DONE FOR ME (which is mostly melody) the guys and sopranos do melody, while the altos do the tenor part. So it's 2-part. Our tenors can't get too high, and with the close voicing of most Gospel SAT, if I lowered the key too much the sopranos would be too low...

{yes, I know I just switched from close to open voicing...}

[LaylaMonroe]

I have started to do this with our choir - on OH, WHAT HE'S DONE FOR ME (which is mostly melody) the guys and sopranos do melody, while the altos do the tenor part. So it's 2-part. Our tenors can't get too high, and with the close voicing of most Gospel SAT, if I lowered the key too much the sopranos would be too low...

{yes, I know I just switched from close to open voicing...}

You're not talking about James Hall's "Never Shall Forget" are you?

[sjonathan02]

You're not talking about James Hall's "Never Shall Forget" are you?

Probably.

[Docdb04]

I can't really explain it other than to reiterate what I've already said. LOL. I just have an ear and an intuition. And whether I know the song or not, if I can hear the key and the chords, then I can find what should be my note. If I'm hearing in my head where I should theoretically be, and you're telling me I have to sing below that (the tenor part), it's going to be hard for me to make that stick. And yes, it is MUCH worse if I do know the song and have already registered the original version and parts in my mind. But honestly, even without that, it's still hard for me to sing a tenor part if I'm with the alto section.

Because I used to direct and teach parts, I can always pick out all three (or four) parts in most songs. Even if I've never heard the song, I can easily figure out what the 3 parts are likely to be. But I still have a hard time when they do that. In fact, in the last Praise Team I sang with, we all had a hard time with that, but none of us knew what the problem was until one day I spoke up and then everyone realized that was exactly what they were struggling with. In most songs, sopranos carry the melody. In a few, altos might. It's very odd for the alto to sing two steps below the melody. If the alto was singing the melody in the original, then it's easier to learn it with the voicing changes. But if the soprano sang the melody, and now you've got tenors singing the melody, it's very difficult because altos would be used to harmonizing against the sopranos.

Again, I can't really explain it. I just know it's difficult when you have your ear/intuition telling you what SHOULD BE your part and your director teaching you something different. Fortunately, I don't have to deal with that in my church choir (or at least I haven't had to YET). *crossing my fingers*

I understand what you are saying.  Some people have the same difficulty in our choir.  Yes, when you have your ear telling you what the part should be, it is very difficult to sing the part that is given.  Like Sjonathan stated, you can't get locked into how the song is sang on the CD.  This is why when I teach the song, I don't play the CD because I know the parts have or will have changed.  Even when the members go home and listen to it, it will throw them off because the parts have or will be switched.  I'll tell the members to bring tape recorders for the purpose of listening to their parts from rehearsal.