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Author Topic: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????  (Read 2573 times)

Offline MENDOZA

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Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« on: December 23, 2009, 08:25:59 AM »
Hey LGM Family!!

I haven't been on the board too much, but I hope all is well and I hope the board is moving along with new and exciting topics.  One topic that I want to discuss is about running sequences. I'm starting to become a "chip" head, but wanted to know a few things and maybe a few members on the board would like to know as well.  When running live sequences, how do you go about it?  Some people use Ipods, some use their MPC's, some use their laptops with Protools, Mbox2, M-Audio Interfaces, etc.  What are you running and how are you running it?  I personally would love to run a stereo mix through my headphones and still have the click.  I have a 17" MacBook Pro with an MBox 2 running Protools 8 LE.  Can someone help me out or is it impossible to do.  What I've been running is having the click and the sequence in Mono and one channel panned to the right and the other channel panned to the right.  However, ideally I would love a stereo mix with the option of hearing the click as well.  I hope I'm somewhat clear.   Would love to hear what my options are?  Take care and God Bless.

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Offline j_kay

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 09:34:43 AM »
This should be a good thread!
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Offline Da_Drumma

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 01:48:56 PM »
Hey LGM Family!!

I haven't been on the board too much, but I hope all is well and I hope the board is moving along with new and exciting topics.  One topic that I want to discuss is about running sequences. I'm starting to become a "chip" head, but wanted to know a few things and maybe a few members on the board would like to know as well.  When running live sequences, how do you go about it?  Some people use Ipods, some use their MPC's, some use their laptops with Protools, Mbox2, M-Audio Interfaces, etc.  What are you running and how are you running it?  I personally would love to run a stereo mix through my headphones and still have the click.  I have a 17" MacBook Pro with an MBox 2 running Protools 8 LE.  Can someone help me out or is it impossible to do.  What I've been running is having the click and the sequence in Mono and one channel panned to the right and the other channel panned to the right.  However, ideally I would love a stereo mix with the option of hearing the click as well.  I hope I'm somewhat clear.   Would love to hear what my options are?  Take care and God Bless.

Carlito
www.youtube.com/jmensticks


What up Carlito!!! How's it been buddy?? Well to answer your question or at least an option....ProTools really isn't the best place to arrange sequences and loops, but it is a great way to capture the entire arrangments. I mean you can do it there, but it really dosent have the user friendly database or controls to create sequences. Now here is an option that I do, one simple word.....IMPORT. Majority of people who I know, as well as myself use other software to create our sequences and loops, an mpc as well. Just a brief example of what I may do.....I would start of with creating my click track, for example let's just say using the well known fruity loops, or you could sync your MPC to your software and use that. Then save it as the program file (ProTools is excellent at recognizing file extensions), if that dosent work make sure you save it as a .wav file extension (most of the time you have to export it). Then I would open up let's say Cubase or Reason and create the other parts of the sequence using VST's or whatever. When I finish I save that as well, exporting if needed. Make sure you take notes of BPM's and Measures, Start times, etc...then finally open up ProTools and import both tracks. If you have professional software protools should recognize the file ext. and put each track in its proper place. If pro tools dosent, there are tricks to get around it. Well there you go.....your click should be track1 and 2 if you have it in stereo, and the rest should be in the order from the other. If your just using a MPC you can sync it with ProTools and you don't have to get in all that other stuff.

Offline fretai03

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 02:01:43 PM »
My preferred method is to play loops straight off my iPod touch. Less hassles with setting up etc.
My second choice would be using a notebook or macbook equivalent etc.

Funnily enough I still haven't used either methods above. ::)  :D

The actual method I use is:

HEADPHONES/MONITOR > MY MIXER < KEYBOARD WITH SEQUENCES
HEADPHONES/MONITOR > MY MIXER < FRONT OF HOUSE MIXER

So, basically I have a mixer just for me and my bro (keys) sends all the sequences/or click into the mixer, and I can get the front of house mix as well.

I haven't needed to control or create sequences yet so I'm comfortable with this for now.

Offline drumzalicious

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 11:19:28 PM »
Good question.

In the last few shows that i have done with me being the MD i have run a full pro-tools session.

What you want to do though is mix the session. From there bounce everything but the drum loop to a stereo mix/Wav file. Import the wav file and it should automatically lineup with the drum loop and where you have the hits and such in the session. After that make all the audio files but the drum loop and the 2 mix of the sequenced stuff in active. i choose to hide them to have a cleaner look you can leave them if you want. The reason why you do this is because it makes your computer have less audio files to process thereby reducing the chance of the session stopping on you in the middle of the show.

After that go to the mix window and use the sends to give yourself a different headphone mix. so you can send the drum loop and the stereo mix of everything else to outputs 3/4 and have whats going to the house from outputs 1/2.

If you have A LOT of stuff and you're putting on a VERY big show what you could do is have different things going down various sends/outputs to the main mixer. Like BGV's going down 3/4 GTR ch5, hits ch6, etc

But thats basically how i do it. Also make sure when your running the session to have a lot of free space. i keep my computer around 30gigs. all my itunes, reason refills, other sessions are kept on an external.

Offline Audiocr381ve

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2009, 02:37:15 PM »
Having your own mixer to run your audio source into has always been the most ideal setup the last few tours I've done. It allows for a tone of different wiring configurations for you and the sound engineer. It's always a must for me to have my own volume/pan control of the music and click and not let the sound or monitor engineer mess it up for me.

With the MBOX you can run a stereo mix out to your engineer, but I'd still play it safe and run it into my own exclusive mixer. Also, pro tools is a pretty heavy program to be running as source audio (I have PT LE 8 as well). I have an Intel Core 2 Quad processor and still it occasionally freezes up. I would bounce the track out and play it from the computer in another program (iTunes etc.) and from there out to your own mixer. Always make sure the source audio won't jack up on you. My band ran garage band for our sequences on the newest generation Macbook PRO and it froze up during a live performance which was HORRIBLE.

Offline drumzalicious

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2009, 10:35:29 PM »
Having your own mixer to run your audio source into has always been the most ideal setup the last few tours I've done. It allows for a tone of different wiring configurations for you and the sound engineer. It's always a must for me to have my own volume/pan control of the music and click and not let the sound or monitor engineer mess it up for me.

With the MBOX you can run a stereo mix out to your engineer, but I'd still play it safe and run it into my own exclusive mixer. Also, pro tools is a pretty heavy program to be running as source audio (I have PT LE 8 as well). I have an Intel Core 2 Quad processor and still it occasionally freezes up. I would bounce the track out and play it from the computer in another program (iTunes etc.) and from there out to your own mixer. Always make sure the source audio won't jack up on you. My band ran garage band for our sequences on the newest generation Macbook PRO and it froze up during a live performance which was HORRIBLE.

With an MBox you basically have your own mixer. it has 8 outputs that you can individually assign so you can make your own headphone mix in 7/8. If you still want to hear whats going on around you then you can get a mixer that way your stage monitor mix runs through the board. i dont usually do that though because i dont know if the other drummers that are playing have headphones (if its a show with more than one group) also because in my mix i generally have just the click and the drum loop. everything else is mixed low.

as far as running audio files and them freezing up. the best way to do it is to bounce them to a mix separate of the drum loop.

so if your PT session used to be 28 channels and only 2 of those channels are the drum loop then bounce the other stuff accordingly. i generally bounce the everything to one mix. i have also seen people bounce vox to one channel, pads, hits, gtr's to seperate channels. if its a big production i would do that and send them individually to the sound engineer however for smaller stuff i will still generally use a session thats nothing but Drum Loop, Bounced music files, and a click track.

If you guys want i can show you some screen captures of the session i used for the concert i did a few weeks ago. the first time we did the stuff i didnt bounce it because i was being lazy about it. the 2nd time though i bounced it. even if you run that session a million times and it never freezes it will seemingly always freeze on you live if you have a ton of tracks going

Offline fretai03

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2009, 10:52:56 PM »
Nice setup Audio... I doubt its the Quad core freezing up on you though. I can't speak for the Apple MacFAIL PRO though. :P

How much/what type of RAM are you running with the Quad core?

Offline 3rd-Day

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2009, 01:17:26 PM »
Good question.

In the last few shows that i have done with me being the MD i have run a full pro-tools session.

What you want to do though is mix the session. From there bounce everything but the drum loop to a stereo mix/Wav file. Import the wav file and it should automatically lineup with the drum loop and where you have the hits and such in the session. After that make all the audio files but the drum loop and the 2 mix of the sequenced stuff in active. i choose to hide them to have a cleaner look you can leave them if you want. The reason why you do this is because it makes your computer have less audio files to process thereby reducing the chance of the session stopping on you in the middle of the show.

After that go to the mix window and use the sends to give yourself a different headphone mix. so you can send the drum loop and the stereo mix of everything else to outputs 3/4 and have whats going to the house from outputs 1/2.

If you have A LOT of stuff and you're putting on a VERY big show what you could do is have different things going down various sends/outputs to the main mixer. Like BGV's going down 3/4 GTR ch5, hits ch6, etc

But thats basically how i do it. Also make sure when your running the session to have a lot of free space. i keep my computer around 30gigs. all my itunes, reason refills, other sessions are kept on an external.


^^^^Great Reply!^^^^

I run a full session, only because it gives me the liberty to make adjustments to the mix during the soundchecks. Like Drumz mentioned I have a separate percussion track routed to outputs 3 and 4 specifically for the drummer. The drummers I use only want to hear the percusion track, other drummers may want to hear more, it all depends. With the session open I can make those changes on the fly if necessary.

I use the Powerbook G4. It has never skipped or stopped during a playback, NEVER. It has been very reliable thus far.

My interface
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My very inexpensive yet durable and butt kicking headphone amp.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Rolls-HA43-Stereo-Headphone-Amp-101201218-i1145958.gc

My software of choice is Digital Performer 5 also by MOTU. Im familiar with Pro Tools, I just prefer DP5 for right now. Will probably switch to Pro Tools at the end of next year.
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Offline drumzalicious

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2009, 08:16:13 PM »
^^^^Great Reply!^^^^

I run a full session, only because it gives me the liberty to make adjustments to the mix during the soundchecks. Like Drumz mentioned I have a separate percussion track routed to outputs 3 and 4 specifically for the drummer. The drummers I use only want to hear the percusion track, other drummers may want to hear more, it all depends. With the session open I can make those changes on the fly if necessary.

I use the Powerbook G4. It has never skipped or stopped during a playback, NEVER. It has been very reliable thus far.

My interface
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TravelerMk3/

My very inexpensive yet durable and butt kicking headphone amp.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Rolls-HA43-Stereo-Headphone-Amp-101201218-i1145958.gc

My software of choice is Digital Performer 5 also by MOTU. Im familiar with Pro Tools, I just prefer DP5 for right now. Will probably switch to Pro Tools at the end of next year.


Thats why. You're using DP. I have thought about using DP for some live shows the problem is that since i track in pro tools i also make a ton of markers within the session itself so that would be some work lol. I heard that the MD for Madonna was using DP for the longest for their live sessions.

Offline Da_Drumma

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2009, 09:25:36 AM »
Sorry Carlito (and everyone else) kinda mis-understood what you're speaking about, anyways I don't think I was too far off subject. To me the best way to run it is to run a full session. Running a full session gives you total control over the entire mix, and over assignments. Now Im not a big fan of bouncing tracks, but sometimes you may have to in order to get what you want, or to free up space (the more tracks you have, the more of a chance your session has to freeze). You could bounce them in sub-groups as well. For instance I sometimes make my wife lay down her own background vocals under the live background vocals, so she would do the alto, soprano, and tenor on two tracks a piece, sometimes 3. So I will have 6-9 tracks just for one person doing bgv's. I would mix each part the bounce only the parts together (not all bgv's). No I have a standard alto, soprano, tenor on 3 tracks so the F.O.H or myslef can mix the parts according to the venue and acoustics. I know that was kinda out the picture but I was just trying to show you how to use subgroups, and still have control of the mix. As long as your click isn't bounced with anything, you should have total control really. Its really a lot of work putting together a session, not necessarily hard, but a lot of work.......Calvin, post a pic of your screenshot so we can see what you're working with in your session. That will explain a lot as well.

Offline 3rd-Day

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2009, 09:32:15 AM »
Thats why. You're using DP. I have thought about using DP for some live shows the problem is that since i track in pro tools i also make a ton of markers within the session itself so that would be some work lol. I heard that the MD for Madonna was using DP for the longest for their live sessions.

Thats whats up. The MD for Gwen Stefani is also using DP. His setup is crazy because he is running the whole show including videos in DP. I got it because it was cheaper but as powerful as Pro Tools. A lot of people flock to Pro Tools because its considered to be the industry standard.  I think DP is one of the underdog softwares that people tend to overlook. There a lot of professionals using it vice protools. I need to dig back into the manual.

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/beyonce-is-on-fire

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/disney-HSM-franchise-heads-to-theaters

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/atnewsitem.2005-12-28.4986412983
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Offline 3rd-Day

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2009, 10:42:35 AM »
Sorry Carlito (and everyone else) kinda mis-understood what you're speaking about, anyways I don't think I was too far off subject. To me the best way to run it is to run a full session. Running a full session gives you total control over the entire mix, and over assignments. Now Im not a big fan of bouncing tracks, but sometimes you may have to in order to get what you want, or to free up space (the more tracks you have, the more of a chance your session has to freeze). You could bounce them in sub-groups as well. For instance I sometimes make my wife lay down her own background vocals under the live background vocals, so she would do the alto, soprano, and tenor on two tracks a piece, sometimes 3. So I will have 6-9 tracks just for one person doing bgv's. I would mix each part the bounce only the parts together (not all bgv's). No I have a standard alto, soprano, tenor on 3 tracks so the F.O.H or myslef can mix the parts according to the venue and acoustics. I know that was kinda out the picture but I was just trying to show you how to use subgroups, and still have control of the mix. As long as your click isn't bounced with anything, you should have total control really. Its really a lot of work putting together a session, not necessarily hard, but a lot of work.......Calvin, post a pic of your screenshot so we can see what you're working with in your session. That will explain a lot as well.
Cool! I layer Vocals. I do much more than 3 though. Hard Pan Left and Right and all that. You talking my kind of talk Bro! You are right though. Looking at all of those wav files can be a nightmare if you need to make quick adjustments. Especially if you sometimes like me get lazy or too comfortable and forget to label/name your tracks.  :-[
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Offline Da_Drumma

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2009, 06:13:39 AM »
Yeah dude I looovvveee mixing background vocals. At the minimum I have a least 9 if my wife has live background vocals on stage, and those 9 of her are just her vocals under the live vocals. If she dosent use live background vocals, then we will get a soprano, and a tenor and the will do 3 tracks a piece (the reason my wife has 9, is because she does the alto, soprano, and tenor regardless) so they only do three...hard pan left, hard pan right and I do a center (I tell you why the center in a pm) that's one of my secret tricks. So total you're looking at 15 vocal background tracks for a one person per section....oh don't go 3,3, and 3 that's like 36 vocal tracks...yes its time consuming, but it pays off in the end. 36 is a lot....that's why I subgroup them at the end.......I know you looovvveee panning toms and instruments too. The stuff you can come up with is crazy......especially a 7 or 6pc kit!!!

Offline drumzalicious

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2009, 12:16:59 PM »
Thats whats up. The MD for Gwen Stefani is also using DP. His setup is crazy because he is running the whole show including videos in DP. I got it because it was cheaper but as powerful as Pro Tools. A lot of people flock to Pro Tools because its considered to be the industry standard.  I think DP is one of the underdog softwares that people tend to overlook. There a lot of professionals using it vice protools. I need to dig back into the manual.

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/beyonce-is-on-fire

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/disney-HSM-franchise-heads-to-theaters

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/atnewsitem.2005-12-28.4986412983


well to be honest no program is really touching pro-tools when it comes to editing live audio. thats hands down the reason why i used pro tools. i had to do a final exam in  DP and had to edit an audio file and it took me 10 min to edit something when in pro tools i would have been done in like 30 sec.

Offline drumzalicious

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2009, 12:22:40 PM »
Sorry Carlito (and everyone else) kinda mis-understood what you're speaking about, anyways I don't think I was too far off subject. To me the best way to run it is to run a full session. Running a full session gives you total control over the entire mix, and over assignments. Now Im not a big fan of bouncing tracks, but sometimes you may have to in order to get what you want, or to free up space (the more tracks you have, the more of a chance your session has to freeze). You could bounce them in sub-groups as well. For instance I sometimes make my wife lay down her own background vocals under the live background vocals, so she would do the alto, soprano, and tenor on two tracks a piece, sometimes 3. So I will have 6-9 tracks just for one person doing bgv's. I would mix each part the bounce only the parts together (not all bgv's). No I have a standard alto, soprano, tenor on 3 tracks so the F.O.H or myslef can mix the parts according to the venue and acoustics. I know that was kinda out the picture but I was just trying to show you how to use subgroups, and still have control of the mix. As long as your click isn't bounced with anything, you should have total control really. Its really a lot of work putting together a session, not necessarily hard, but a lot of work.......Calvin, post a pic of your screenshot so we can see what you're working with in your session. That will explain a lot as well.

Im going to do one big post on it. Start to finish how I did the show

Offline Da_Drumma

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2009, 02:58:25 PM »
Im going to do one big post on it. Start to finish how I did the show

Cool dude...that will be great!!! Looking forward to it.

Offline 3rd-Day

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2009, 07:31:37 AM »
well to be honest no program is really touching pro-tools when it comes to editing live audio. thats hands down the reason why i used pro tools. i had to do a final exam in  DP and had to edit an audio file and it took me 10 min to edit something when in pro tools i would have been done in like 30 sec.
I will say that Pro Tools is very easy to navigate once you are familiar with it, and so is DP, but Apples and Oranges Bro.  ;D

You know what, This is a pretty good thread!  :)
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Offline 3rd-Day

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2009, 07:34:17 AM »
Yeah dude I looovvveee mixing background vocals. At the minimum I have a least 9 if my wife has live background vocals on stage, and those 9 of her are just her vocals under the live vocals. If she dosent use live background vocals, then we will get a soprano, and a tenor and the will do 3 tracks a piece (the reason my wife has 9, is because she does the alto, soprano, and tenor regardless) so they only do three...hard pan left, hard pan right and I do a center (I tell you why the center in a pm) that's one of my secret tricks. So total you're looking at 15 vocal background tracks for a one person per section....oh don't go 3,3, and 3 that's like 36 vocal tracks...yes its time consuming, but it pays off in the end. 36 is a lot....that's why I subgroup them at the end.......I know you looovvveee panning toms and instruments too. The stuff you can come up with is crazy......especially a 7 or 6pc kit!!!
Yeah so ummm. My PM box has no new messages. LOL!! Share your tips, I will be back in the studio starting the 15th of January doing primarily vocals. So hit me up.
Im too tall to act small.

Offline Da_Drumma

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Re: Best Way to Run Live Sequences????
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2009, 08:59:08 AM »
Yeah so ummm. My PM box has no new messages. LOL!! Share your tips, I will be back in the studio starting the 15th of January doing primarily vocals. So hit me up.

What up doc!! Sorry about that, got tied up a bit. But....ummm yeah, check your PM!!! Lol!!
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