Confused, Confused - Progressions

[karendj]

I have been studying the patterns - progressions in the few songs that I play hoping to make some connections to the progressions given on this site. However, I am confusing myself. I do understand that progressions are based on the chord played as below. However, what if a different chord is used doesn't that totally change the progession?

For example Amazing Grace as I hear the melody in G is G-C-E-E-D-C-A-G; 14665421(BDG-EGC-GBE-GBE-FAD-EGC-CEA-BDG) OR 14441421 (BDG-EGC-GCE-GCE-GBD-EGC-BDG) depending on what chords you play. Am I missing something?

I have a very rudimentary ear and theory training, please explain or post a link to a topic I missed when doing my search. Maybe its all just wrong, be honest I'm really confused.
 

A progression is simply a group of chords. It can be a song or just something made up.



The first group 1-4-1-5-1 is a progression that involes the 1 chord, the 4 chord, and the five chord of whatever key you are in with the bass note being the root of the chord. Example in key of C:

1 chord = C/C-E-G     4 chord = F/F-A-C    5 chord = G/G-B-D

I'm sure you can figure out the 2-5-1.



Well, you just have to use trial and error. Sometimes people play word for word what the choir is singing, and sometimes people just play the music along with what the choir is singing. What I would suggest is to figure out the bass line, then the melody, then form chords under the melody, then try and play along with the CD. It also doesn't help to go and watch other people.

I hope that answers some of your questions.

[T-Block]

For example Amazing Grace as I hear the melody in G is G-C-E-E-D-C-A-G; 14665421(BDG-EGC-GBE-GBE-FAD-EGC-CEA-BDG) OR 14441421 (BDG-EGC-GCE-GCE-GBD-EGC-BDG) depending on what chords you play. Am I missing something?

Well, using what you have posted here, you are missing something.  Those melody notes u got there aren't for the key of G.  Those notes suggest the key of C.  Notice how the song starts out:

A
ma-
zing
grace,

Now, sing the first 2 syllables.  You see how the first syllable "A" leads to the next syllable "ma-"?  That should tell u that the key isn't G.  So, now that u know what key the song is in, let's use the melody to figure out the pattern of the song:

/ G A-
/ C ma-
/ E zing
/ E grace
/ D how
/ C sweet
/ A the
/ G sound,

O.K., using the first melody note G, what u want to do is go to the Key of C and list every basic chord tha has G in it:

Key of C chords:  C-E-G, D-F-A, E-G-B, F-A-C, G-B-D, A-C-E, B-D-F

Looking at the list, I see 3 chords that qualify.  So, what u gonna do is use trial and error to see what the best chord is.  Also, once u find a chord that works, make sure the melody note is on top.  I'm gonna pick G-B-D:

/ B-D-G A-
/ C ma-
/ E zing
/ E grace
/ D how
/ C sweet
/ A the
/ G sound,

Then, u repeat this process for all the other melody notes.  These are the chords I would use:

/ B-D-G A-
/ E-G-C ma-
/ G-C-E zing
/ G-C-E grace
/ G-B-D how
/ F-A-C sweet
/ C-F-A the
/ C-E-G sound,

Now, looking at these chords, u should notice that the chords I used are 1, 4, and 5.  So, basically for this song u are utilizing the 1-4-5 progression.  It's not necessarily in that order, but the chords themselves are there.  Now, let's add in the LH bass notes to complete it:

G / B-D-G A-
C / E-G-C ma-
C / G-C-E zing
C / G-C-E grace
G / G-B-D how
F / F-A-C sweet
F / C-F-A the
C / C-E-G sound,

All I did was play the root of those chords in the LH.  It's that easy once u get the hang of it.  Figuring out chords from the melody is harder than if u had some bass notes. 

The melody doesn't tell u what chords u have, they only suggest what chords can be played and tell what inversion the chords should be played in.  The bass notes is what really tells u the chords.

As your ear gets used to recognizing progressions when played, this process will be much easier.  As you practice the progressions I have posted here on LGM, really pay attention to the sound.  See if u can spot them in a song on the radio or on a CD.

Does that help?

[karendj]

  I thought it was C, but I was using "theory" thinking that there was a 90% chance the song would start on the one so I changed it to G. Thanks!

Now in your quote you said, "these are the chords I would use." So you can use other chords and if someone used G-B-E (the third) instead of G-C-E for "Zing Grace" wouldn't that change the progression?

The reason I'm am trying to get clarity is I am pulling songs from this site, getting songs from my music teacher and other people and I'm studying these chords on paper highlighting the basic progressions that you have listed trying to make connections (my thinking is if I can play one song I can easily learn others with similar progressions) and I'm seeing all kinds of progressions. Maybe I should be less methodical change my way of studying and use my ear more as suggested????

Thanks T-Block

[sjonathan02]

I thought it was C, but I was using "theory" thinking that there was a 90% chance the song would start on the one so I changed it to G. Thanks!

Now in your quote you said, "these are the chords I would use." So you can use other chords and if someone used G-B-E (the third) instead of G-C-E for "Zing Grace" wouldn't that change the progression?

The reason I'm am trying to get clarity is I am pulling songs from this site, getting songs from my music teacher and other people and I'm studying these chords on paper highlighting the basic progressions that you have listed trying to make connections (my thinking is if I can play one song I can easily learn others with similar progressions) and I'm seeing all kinds of progressions. Maybe I should be less methodical change my way of studying and use my ear more as suggested????

Thanks T-Block

No, it wouldn't change the progression. It would change, of course, the sound of the chord that you're playing in the progression.


The progression really only changes, to my knowledge, when you change the bass note.

[karendj]

Okay, I am flipping through my Jermaine Griggs book! I forgot that chords can be subsituted. So probably many of these chords I'm looking at are alterations for basic progressions and that is why I am soooooo confused.

That means I will have to do as you recommended, use my ear and keep studying those progresstion rather than studying the chorded songs from different people who all put a different spin on what they play.

The Holy Spirit will use other people to help you understand what you don't know, illuminate what you already have and bless you with the wisdom to use it all.

Thanks Again
T-Block

[karendj]

The melody doesn't tell u what chords u have, they only suggest what chords can be played and tell what inversion the chords should be played in.  The bass notes is what really tells u the chords.

This is why people suggest finding the bassline of a song first rather than the melody! Find the bassline and you can find the chords rather than finding the melody first, then the chords to go with it and then the bassline too.  - That Makes Sense NOW!

The progression really only changes, to my knowledge, when you change the bass note.

  This brings me to a whole nother set of questions,(like what if you are doing a walking bassline, will it give you the progression of the song) but I'll get some clarity on that after some research.

Thanks sjonathan02

[sjonathan02]

This is why people suggest finding the bassline of a song first rather than the melody! Find the bassline and you can find the chords rather than finding the melody first, then the chords to go with it and then the bassline too.  - That Makes Sense NOW!

  This brings me to a whole nother set of questions,(like what if you are doing a walking bassline, will it give you the progression of the song) but I'll get some clarity on that after some research.

Thanks sjonathan02

I'd say, 'No'. A walking bassline only tells you what chord you're using, not the entire progression.

[T-Block]

This brings me to a whole nother set of questions,(like what if you are doing a walking bassline, will it give you the progression of the song) but I'll get some clarity on that after some research.

When you're playing a walking bassline, there will be some of those bass notes u play chords with and some you don't.  What u need to do is figure out those important bass notes first, then in order to fill in the gaps add in other bass notes.  Example (made-up progression, LOL):

3-6-2-5-1 progression
Key C  LH/RH

E / D-G-B
A / C#-F-G-C
D / F-A-C-E
G / F-A-B-E
C / E-G-B-D

O.K., u see that progression?  Now, what I'm gonna do is add in a walking bass line to help give the song movement.  But, notice that the progression above is still the main progression for the song:

E / D-G-B
F /
G /
G# /
A / C#-F-G-C
B /
C /
E /
D / F-A-C-E
E /
F /
A /
G / F-A-B-E
F /
E /
D /
C / E-G-B-D

You see the added bass notes that I bolded?  Even though there are a lot of bass notes, that doesn't change the basic progression.  Make sense?

[karendj]

I do understand!  You have helped me more than you guys know!!!

The main thing that I have to be aware of when studying a song is that many of the chord may be alterations or substitutions, but the basic progressions are in there somewhere!

I've got to include listening and finding progressions in songs to my study time.

Lastly, I need to look at some of my walking basslines to find those important bass notes.

Thanks Again!

The Holy Spirit will use other people to help you understand what you don't know, illuminate what you already have, and bless you with the wisdom to use it all.

[T-Block]

I'm glad you're getting a better understanding karendj.  Just know that anytime u need help, we're right here to assist you!   

[Fenix]

The main thing that I have to be aware of when studying a song is that many of the chord may be alterations or substitutions, but the basic progressions are in there somewhere!

Exactly! Gospel music is very guilty of using altered chords a lot. There are times when listening to a song i'd be like "just what the heck chord is that?"  You have to really study your chord theory and i strongly suggest getting Jermaine Griggs' GospelKeys 300 which exposes you to a lot of chords used in gospel music.   

The Holy Spirit will use other people to help you understand what you don't know, illuminate what you already have, and bless you with the wisdom to use it all.

AMEN!!!

[Rjthakid]

I do understand!  You have helped me more than you guys know!!!

The main thing that I have to be aware of when studying a song is that many of the chord may be alterations or substitutions, but the basic progressions are in there somewhere!

I've got to include listening and finding progressions in songs to my study time.

Lastly, I need to look at some of my walking basslines to find those important bass notes.

Thanks Again!

The Holy Spirit will use other people to help you understand what you don't know, illuminate what you already have, and bless you with the wisdom to use it all.

To add to what has already been said, please note that you don't have to play a chord with every syllable being sung.  Singers generally don't like this.

Note:

A
MA
ZING
GRACE
HOW
SWEET
THE
SOUND

The bolded & underlined syllables you can chord.  The others are not NECESSARY.

In fact to have a more mature sound, you can throw an occassional chord with the other syllables, but please don't think you have to chord ever syllable of every word.

T-BLOCK gave you the beginner chords as not to confuse you, but I'll just throw out another way to go about it.

(Please note: I'm not at my board, I'm at work)

A

MA          C/C-E-G-C

ZING      -/Eb-Gb-A-C,  -/D-F-Ab-B

GRACE     C-G-C/E-Bb  OR: C-G-C/Db-E-G-Bb

HOW        D-G-Ab/C-D-G (Rootless voicing.  E7#5#9) OR: E-Bb/C-E-G

SWEET     F-C-F/A-C-D-A

THE

SOUND     C-G-C/B-D-E-G

Did you get that?

Alright lets break it down.  When you're just starting the "Why" is extremely important.

I skipped tha A- and started on the next syllable.

Right after ZING I did two diminished chords moving chromatically down.

What was the point of this?

Notice that in T-BLOCKS example, again made simple so that you can understand it, he plays a C Major chord on the "GRACE". 

I wanted to play a C7 on "GRACE", so those two diminished chords are merely *passing chords*.  The purpose of the passing chords are to logically move me to the next chord in the progression.  I say logically because, despite what some think, there is ALWAYS a reason why a passing chord works.  Always.  These passing chords work because the melody moved down to the Bb, which is in my C7 chord.  They also work because a diminished chord consists of two tritones, and every Dominant chord has a tritone in it.  That's another lesson altogether.  lol.

Also, note that the "Bb" is not the melody note, but because I kept C in the bass, the chord kept it's identity.

Ok, as I already said I played the Dominant 7 (C7) on "GRACE".

After that is another passing chord.  Just looking at the chord, many wouldn't piece together what chord it is, but it's an E7#5#9 chord, as I noted.  WHERE did I get this chord from?  Key-Wiz (Moderator of the Organ Room).  I picked up this chord and use it probably too much    .  Because I play the Organ primarily I would play the E in the Foot Pedal.  I think it still sounds nice on the Piano.  This passing chord works because

A) although the root isn't present, it's an E chord so the implied bass is a half-step below the bass of your next chord.
and
B) the melody note in this chord is "G", which is a whole step below the "A": the melody note of your next chord.

I also gave an alternate passing chord which works for the same reasons.



The rest of the chording is self explanatory.

It doesn't take 10 years to become a decent keyboardist.  I haven't been playing for half that, and I'm ok.  (Not great, but I don't suck as much) 

Keep working and eventually things will click.

Don't overthink things.   

[karendj]

Rjthakid this is a prolific post.

but it's an E7#5#9 chord, as I noted.  WHERE did I get this chord from?  Key-Wiz (Moderator of the Organ Room).  I picked up this chord and use it probably too much.

Could you explain what chord that is? I know that E7 is E Ab B D, but what is the #5 and the #9???

The purpose of the passing chords are to logically move me to the next chord in the progression.  I say logically because, despite what some think, there is ALWAYS a reason why a passing chord works.  Always.  These passing chords work because the melody moved down to the Bb, which is in my C7 chord.

  I surmise that if there is a logical reason why passing chords work then there must be a method to the madness of finding passing chords!

When you're just starting the "Why" is extremely important

You Know It!

To add to what has already been said, please note that you don't have to play a chord with every syllable being sung.  Singers generally don't like this.

I've been told this many times, but I don't know what else to do if I don't play every word.

quote]Rootless voicing [/quote]
  Something else I have to lookout for!!!

[T-Block]

Could you explain what chord that is? I know that E7 is E Ab B D, but what is the #5 and the #9???

O.K. karendj, anytime u see a sharp_ or flat_, what it's telling u is to sharp or flat the number it's in front of.  So, #5 means to raise the 5th scale degree 1/2 step.  On the same token, b5 means to lower the 5th scale degree 1/2 step.  Now, let's deal with your chord:

E7(#5/#9)

Since it's a 9th chord, what u first need to do is spell out an E9 chord:

E-G#-B-D-F#

Now, u need to identify the scale degree numbers for those notes using the E major scale:

1-3-5-b7-9

Now, what u wanna do is raise the 5th and 9th scale degrees to make your E7(#5/#9) chord:

E-G#-B#-D-F##

I know what ur thinking, what the heck does B# and F## mean?  I'm glad u asked that.  B# means the note B raised 1/2 step.  So, u would play a C.  F## means the note F raised two 1/2 steps.  So, u would play a G.  Here's the chord spelled in those terms:

E-G#-C-D-G

As a keyboard/piano player, u may see the chord written like this:

E / G#-C-D-G or E / Ab-C-D-G

I surmise that if there is a logical reason why passing chords work then there must be a method to the madness of finding passing chords!

There is a method to the madness.  The idea here is when u find something that works, IMMEDIATELY apply it to every song u can fit it in.  This way it becomes a part of your chord vocabulary.  Eventually, u won't even see them as passing chords, u will see them as plain chords.

[karendj]

Thanks for the chord explanation. It was a "Duh" moment of course # means sharp. However, I've never see it with a number before so that is new to me.

Also, thanks for the tip on applying concepts I learn.

In the past I thought playing piano was just about teaching the fingers, but now I know its a way of thinking and training the brain as well as the ear. Which means an equal amount of time must spent practicing and studying music.

Thanks

By the way for all the newbies there is a members only section with midis and videos of progressions to help train your ear and help in practice. I think I'm at the point that it will be worth it for me to become a member.

http://www.learngospelmusic.com/piano/progressions.php

[T-Block]

In the past I thought playing piano was just about teaching the fingers, but now I know its a way of thinking and training the brain as well as the ear. Which means an equal amount of time must spent practicing and studying music.

That's the key right there.  The sooner more musicians come to that realization, the better in my opinion.

[Rjthakid]

I surmise that if there is a logical reason why passing chords work then there must be a method to the madness of finding passing chords!

There is a method to the madness.  The idea here is when u find something that works, IMMEDIATELY apply it to every song u can fit it in.  This way it becomes a part of your chord vocabulary.  Eventually, u won't even see them as passing chords, u will see them as plain chords.

To add a little to this:

Two specific ways to use passing chords are Chromatically, and throught the Circle of Fourths.

Let's say you're playing a song with a decending bassline.

Let's stick to the key of C.  (Again, please note that I'm not at my board, so if something doesn't sound right lemme know)

Let's say the first line of 'Thank You Lord'

Chromatic Approach:

C/G-C-E     Thank
B/G-B-D     You
C-Gb/E-Ab-B *Passing Chord*
A/E-G-C      Lord

The Bass line is walking down (C, B, A)

I inserted an Ab7#5#9 chord (yes I LOVE the #5#9).  The root isn't on the bottom.

Alternave voicing for that chord:

Ab-E-B/Gb-C
This voicing is probably a bit more piano-like (remember: I primarily play the Organ).  And yes that is a stretch in your left hand, but that stretch gives the chord a great sound.

Back to the point.  You can generally approach a chord from a half-step below or a half step above.  I prefer to approach from a half-step below as I did in this example.  I played an Ab chord to lead me to the A chord.

Next Example...

Approaching using the Circle of Fourths  (This one is a LITTLE more difficult)

C/G-C-E              Thank
/A,B,C,D  (these are single notes...not a chord)
B/E-A-B-E            You
E/E-G#-B-D    *Passing Chord*
A-E-A/G#-B-C#-E Lord *Substitution* (Major for Minor)

Alright, I led into the A chord with an E Major chord.  Of course we now that A follows E in the circle of Fourths.

So instead of playing 1-7-6 I played 1-7-3-6

This is especially useful in 1-4-5-1 progressions which are VERY common.  You can throw in the 2 to lead to the 5 and make it 1-4-2-5-1.

I also substituted and made that A minor an A MAJOR.  I like to do that with the 6 chord.


Now take it and learn it in every key!

Tip: Don't just play the chords.  Play that same song 'Thank You Lord' and add the passing chords/substitutions.  As T-Block has already stated, APPLYING chords, subs, etc to actual songs is the very best way to learn.

I hope this helps. 

[karendj]

Rjthakid - this does help. It is just taking me some time to process what you are saying here and apply it. 

[Rjthakid]

Rjthakid - this does help. It is just taking me some time to process what you are saying here and apply it. 

Well, if you have any questions....