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Author Topic: 2-5-1  (Read 9576 times)

Offline chevonee

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2008, 12:25:06 AM »
Now behold the Lamb in Bb
D / Bb-C-D-F  NOW
Eb / Bb-C-D-F  BEHOLD
F / G-A-C-F  THE LAMB
D / Bb-C-D-F  THE PRECIOUS
Eb / Bb-C-D-F  LAMB
F / G-A-C-F   OF GOD
D / Bb-C-D-F  BORN INTO
Eb / Bb-C-D-F  SIN
F / G-A-C-F  THAT I MAY
Gb / Gb-Bb-C-Eb  LIVE
G / F-Bb-D  AGAIN
C / E-Bb-D  THE PRECIOUS (2)
F / Eb-F-Bb  LAMB  (5)
Bb / D-F-Bb  OF GOD (1)
Strike while the iron is hot!

Offline seemunny

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2008, 12:37:35 AM »

I used to play the circle of fourths using 2-5s using a specific voicing...

Starts like this

C/BbDEbG
F/ADEbG

Bb/AbCDbF
Eb/GCDbF

and so on.......

so the first chord is a Cminor9, so essentially its a 2 with the added flat seven, and ninth degree.



Actually, those would be 6-2's man, LOL.


Actually they are 2-5s. The progression is starting off in Bb major, hence the C-f. Then it goes on to Ab major, hence the Bb-Eb...and so on.


Key Of Bb Major:

..2) C / Bb, D, Eb, G
..5) F / A, D, Eb, G
..1) Bb / A, C, D, F
#1) B / Ab, B, D, F

..2) C / Bb, D, Eb, G
..5) F / A, D, Eb, G
..1) Bb / A, C, D, F (ending)

Key of Bb Major as: (2-5)
--------------------------------------------------------

Key Of Eb Major:

Isn't she....

6) C / Bb, D, Eb, G (looovely)
2) F / A, D, Eb, G   (Isn't she...)
5) Bb / Ab, C, Eb, G (wonnderrr - )
1) Eb / G, Bb, D, F   (- ful. Isn't she...)

(repeat, etc, etc)

As you can see, that's Stevie Wonder doing the same two chords in the key of Eb Major as: (6-2)



I trust that you all can clearly see that you're ALL correct DEPENDING ON WHICH KEY you're in. 8)

Offline Fenix

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2008, 07:42:55 AM »
Seemunny thanks for the explanation, it made perfect sense. The only reason i was so adamant that they were 2-5s was the sound. If you play the first progression (The Cm9 to F13), it has a very strong resolving pull to Bb major. To me, that NEEDS to be resolved, hence it functions perfectly as a 2-5.

I now understand where T-Block is going with this though. 
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Offline csedwards2

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2008, 11:58:39 AM »



Key Of Bb Major:

..2) C / Bb, D, Eb, G
..5) F / A, D, Eb, G
..1) Bb / A, C, D, F
#1) B / Ab, B, D, F

..2) C / Bb, D, Eb, G
..5) F / A, D, Eb, G
..1) Bb / A, C, D, F (ending)

Key of Bb Major as: (2-5)
--------------------------------------------------------

Key Of Eb Major:

Isn't she....

6) C / Bb, D, Eb, G (looovely)
2) F / A, D, Eb, G   (Isn't she...)
5) Bb / Ab, C, Eb, G (wonnderrr - )
1) Eb / G, Bb, D, F   (- ful. Isn't she...)

(repeat, etc, etc)

As you can see, that's Stevie Wonder doing the same two chords in the key of Eb Major as: (6-2)



I trust that you all can clearly see that you're ALL correct DEPENDING ON WHICH KEY you're in. 8)
There is no A natural in Eb major. So that F13 cannot be called a 2, because its a borrowed chord from another key.

I understand this lets just say everybody's right, but its not accurate. Thats why we have theory in the first place to make sense of it all. If I go around telling people to call everything with a F bass in Eb major a 2, Id confuse alot of people because of songs like this.

Theory is lots of rules based on scales, numbers, and function. That F7 or F13 breaks the rule of Eb major, so for that small section, its not in Eb major, its in Bb major.

Offline T-Block

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2008, 01:51:48 PM »
lets look at one, by its self and we'll analyze why this is only, a 2-5.
I'll use T Blocks voicings for this.

In the key of G major, the scale goes G A B C D E F# G

Here we have a A/GCE

you even talked about the concept in the "What chord is this" thread that to find a chord you spell it in thirds, so this one should be spelled, A C E G in root position. This follows the " build a chord off every other note in the scale" rule. In G major, this chord is a 2.

-Now you called it a 6. Which it could be, because they are spelled exactly the same way. Because , in addition to 2's, 6's are minor in nature in a major key as well as 3's. So it could be
a 6 in C major - C D E F G A B C, or
a 3 in F major - F G A Bb C D E F.

-Here is why it cannot be a 5 in a major key. Giving it the name of 5, it has to fulfill the function of a 5, and include a leading tone to the tonic.

So here we have our good ole Aminor 7 chord, spelled ACEG, if we call it a 5, that means the tonic would have to be D. So in D major we have D E F# G A B C# D. The leading tone in D major is the C#, which is necessary in the 5 chord to get back to the tonic. So in the A chord we have, we have a C natural. So automatically, by default this option is eliminated as a possibility. It cannot be a 5 chord in D major without a C#. For you advanced cats who are thinking about an A7#9 ie. A/C#EGB# or A7#5#9 ie A/C#E#GB# and how it has a C natural in it; it wouldnt be a dom7 chord at all with out the C#. Soon as you take it out, it looses its function as a 5. Again, the 5-1 option is eliminated as a possibility.

So to recap, it can be a progression that starts with a 2, 3, or 6, but cannot be any progression that starts with a 5.

Now for the ending.

Since we have 3 possibilities, this progression is ultimately determined by the two chords together, and not individually. So we, in essence need this next chord to tell us what key we're in and give us the ultimate analysis. Remember we have to analyze this in light of the whole progression, so we're analyzing the first chord and its possibilities for analysis.

So lets see if its a 3.
-If its a 3, then it puts us in the key of F major - F G A Bb C D E F, and the second chord of D/F#CE, by itself would have to be analyzed as a D9. in root position it'd be D F# A C E. Now we dont have an A in this chord, but that would not change the function of the chord, so its not important to have it in. I could develop that idea, but lets move on. So in the key of F major - F G A Bb C D E F, we have to decide if we can spell a D9 by the presence of the notes in the major scale of F; and we see that we cant because of the lack of an F#. This possibility is out. Next

Lets see if its a 6.

That would put us in the key of C major - C D E F G A B C. So our Aminor fits, but how would we analyze the next chord of D9? Could it be a 2? Lets see. D9 - D F# C E. We see we cannot use this analysis, because there is no F# in the key of C. The possibility of this progression being a 6-2 in a major is eliminated because of the F#.

So in the end, it can only be a 2-5
A minor chord going to a dominant chord one fourth up or one fifth down is a 2-5. Knowing that its a 2-5 gives you the key.


U know cs, all that gibberish would be correct IF the key for the first 2 chords was G major.  Those 2 chords are 6-2 in C major or 5-1 in D major.  U ever heard of the secondary dominant principle?  Well that's what is occuring on the last chord of the set.  Using the example:

A / G-C-E    *6 in C major
D / F#-C-E  *2 in C major, secondary dominant chord to 5, then probably will go to 1

or

A / G-C-E    *5 in D major
D / F#-C-C  *1 in D major, secondary dominant chord to 4, then probably a 2-5-1 to end

U think in the short run cs, I'm thinking long term.  Make sense?

There is no A natural in Eb major. So that F13 cannot be called a 2, because its a borrowed chord from another key.

Just like I said above, SECONDARY DOMINANT, or in theory terms V of V.  So, this can be called a 2.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
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Offline Fenix

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2008, 02:05:10 PM »
U know cs, all that gibberish would be correct IF the key for the first 2 chords was G major.  Those 2 chords are 6-2 in C major or 5-1 in D major.  U ever heard of the secondary dominant principle?  Well that's what is occuring on the last chord of the set.  Using the example:

A / G-C-E    *6 in C major
D / F#-C-E  *2 in C major, secondary dominant chord to 5, then probably will go to 1

or

A / G-C-E    *5 in D major
D / F#-C-C  *1 in D major, secondary dominant chord to 4, then probably a 2-5-1 to end

U think in the short run cs, I'm thinking long term.  Make sense?

Just like I said above, SECONDARY DOMINANT, or in theory terms V of V.  So, this can be called a 2.

T-Block C'MON!!!!!

You are unnecessarily complicating this by introducing secondary dominants.

Going back to the firs set of chords, they LOOK like 2-5s and SOUND like 2-5s. Introducing the concept of secondary dominants to justify them being 6-2s is unnecessary.

C'mon man, be reasonable. I can clearly understand why you would say they are 6-2s but for simplicity's sake anyone who looks at these progressions will at first glance KNOW they are 2-5s.

 :-\
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Offline cas10a

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2008, 02:26:40 PM »
There is no A natural in Eb major. So that F13 cannot be called a 2, because its a borrowed chord from another key.

I understand this lets just say everybody's right, but its not accurate. Thats why we have theory in the first place to make sense of it all. If I go around telling people to call everything with a F bass in Eb major a 2, Id confuse alot of people because of songs like this.

Theory is lots of rules based on scales, numbers, and function. That F7 or F13 breaks the rule of Eb major, so for that small section, its not in Eb major, its in Bb major.

If you used your theory in bold above, you'd be saying if you play a song in the key of C the only chords that could be used are the ones with natural notes (no chords using flats or sharps)...It is indeed an F13...chromatic scales include all the notes and can be played in all keys. 

ex., If I were playing in the key of CMaj and used a Gm9 chord at some point in my progression, it would still be considered a Gm9 and the 5th even though there is no Bb in the CMaj scale, however the Bb is in the Cm scale and is dominant in C...I may have not changed keys but I used a note from the minor scale of the same key.

The F7/F13 does not break the rule of the "Key" of EbMaj...you are talking to separate things, the "Key" --- "chords".

Offline T-Block

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2008, 02:28:09 PM »
for simplicity's sake anyone who looks at these progressions will at first glance KNOW they are 2-5s.

Well, at first glance I saw 6-2 cuz I didn't just look at the bass, I looked at the chords as well and heard it in my head.  Like I said, we can agree to disagree, but I KNOW what it really is.  When it comes to progressions u gotta look at EVERYTHING, not just the bass notes.  The bass notes name it afterwards, not b4.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
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Offline T-Block

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2008, 02:34:03 PM »
you are talking to separate things, the "Key" --- "chords".

That's fine.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline T-Block

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2008, 02:58:38 PM »
My apologies everyone, I'll back out.  No hard feelings!!!  :D
Real musicians play in every key!!!
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Offline cas10a

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2008, 03:59:49 PM »
That's fine.

My apologies everyone, I'll back out.  No hard feelings!!!  :D

I didn't read the entire post, but I was just addressing the small portion below from CSedwards...about the A Natural in the Key of Eb used in the F13 chord...

In that case we were talking to different things... :)

There is no A natural in Eb major. So that F13 cannot be called a 2, because its a borrowed chord from another key.


In this case of the song ("Isn't she Lovely"...in the example) the Key is EbMaj and it doesn't resolve to the Bb chord it resolves back to Eb, then goes back to the 6 (Cm7), the F13 is the 2 (6-2-5-1 in EbMaj), an example of a progression that doesn't start on the 1, but ends/resolves to the 1.

Offline T-Block

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2008, 04:03:02 PM »
He's talking diatonic progressions, only using the notes of the major scale.  I'm talking about the key as a whole, so we were both on two different wavelengths.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline cas10a

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2008, 04:07:12 PM »
He's talking diatonic progressions, only using the notes of the major scale.  I'm talking about the key as a whole, so we were both on two different wavelengths.

A'ight...I get it, lol...

Offline Fenix

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2008, 04:14:37 PM »
My apologies everyone, I'll back out.  No hard feelings!!!  :D

**Punches T-Block in the nose**

Whatch'yo gone do huh? >:(
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Offline T-Block

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2008, 04:18:39 PM »
**Punches T-Block in the nose**

Whatch'yo gone do huh? >:(

HAHAHAHAHA, dang man why u gotta hit me?  :D   I probably deserved that.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline Fenix

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2008, 06:43:23 PM »
HAHAHAHAHA, dang man why u gotta hit me?  :D   I probably deserved that.

Heck this board is mod-less, Sjon doesn't care what goes on. I can do whatever i want.

Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! ;D ;D
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2008, 06:53:08 PM »
Heck this board is mod-less, Sjon doesn't care what goes on. I can do whatever i want.

Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! ;D ;D

Or, he figures that once T-Block hits you upside yo' head with a foot pedal things'll be even.  8)


*walks away whistling, "Isn't she lovely"*
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline Fenix

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2008, 06:55:18 PM »
^^^

OK who is the tattler?  >:( >:( >:(
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2008, 07:20:20 PM »
^^^

OK who is the tattler?  >:( >:( >:(

YOU are. Shouldn't you be in a movie theater or something, anyway?  :D :D
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline under13

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Re: 2-5-1
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2008, 07:29:48 PM »
WoW Fenix, I didnt know you were such an E-Thug. :D
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