Would you let talented non members play at your church?

[kodacolor]

Hi,

At my church there’s this guy who plays guitar in with the musician’s ministry, but he’s not a member.  He’s a friend of a member who’s in the musician’s ministry with me.  When he first came I thought it would be for that Sunday or a couple of Sundays.  It’s been about 2-3 months now and he’s still playing, but he’s not a member.  He’s probably one of the nicest musicians I’ve ever met, he’s a great teacher, he’s all around awesome, but one of the rules for all ministries in the church is that you have to be a member.  (The other one being you have to have accepted Christ your personal Lord and Savior.)

Today at practice one of the guys in the choir brought in his friend who plays the 6 string bass to play with us.  I’m starting to think this is getting out of hand.  I could care less if we have 10 member or 10,000 members, I would feel better if the people in the ministry would be members of our church because our ministry is a part of our church.  I feel that people are treating the ministry as a jam session. 

Another scenario:

Lets say you have a church home and you get paid for playing at another church one Sunday out the month would you say that that situation matches the above situation?  (This is not my situation.)  In the above situation none of the musicians are being paid nor are they going to be paid.  Everyone’s volunteering their time.

So my question is what do you think about talented non member playing in church as regular musicians?  Please explain your answer.  Am I over reacting?  Is there anywhere in the Bible that talks about something like this?

[westbrooks1961]

I believe that if someone is playing regularly at church, they should be a member of the church. This is something that the chior president, M.O.M, and the pastor should address. I know that there are churches that pay musicans to play even if they are not members. This is because some people in the church are just sitting on their gift and not using them. This person might be a great addition to the music. But, I'ts more important to know that their soul has been saved, and that they understand why they're playing and who there are playing for. I believe that someone needs to invite this person to jion the church. If they come to church every sunday, they most likely want to stay. 

[under13]

I've been playing at a church for the past 4 months, and I havent joined, nor do I plan on joining.
They dont pay me, but I'm not that good so I'm just thankful for the opprotunity to have the hands on experience of being the organist. The Pastor did ask me if I planned on joinig and I told him no. I dont belive in joining if I dont plan on staying long, long term.  I'm still a member of my home church, though I dont know If I'll ever return there. thats a whole 'nother story

I dont think musicians need to be a member in order to play. There are many many churches that have good relationships with hired, non member musicians.

I say if you have a musician who will play for free who is skilled and faithful, you better keep him, cuz there arent many out there. I know I dont plan on playing for free forever.

[kodacolor]

I dont think musicians need to be a member in order to play.

How come?

I know I dont plan on playing for free forever.

See that's that thing...I seriously doubt that we're going to pay him at all.  We as a church didn't ask him to come, his friend thought it would be cool if he came so she invited him.  Heck, the pastor doesn't even really get paid.  There's a "Pastor's Gift" but he says you don't have to if you don't want to.  (Unlike at my old church were they'd say "Our pastor doesn't get a salary.  He lives off of what we give him")  Also, I doubt we have the money for it.  (we're a pretty small church.  We probably seat like 50 people maybe less..)

 

[under13]

How come?

See that's that thing...I seriously doubt that we're going to pay him at all.  We as a church didn't ask him to come, his friend thought it would be cool if he came so she invited him.  Heck, the pastor doesn't even really get paid.  There's a "Pastor's Gift" but he says you don't have to if you don't want to.  (Unlike at my old church were they'd say "Our pastor doesn't get a salary.  He lives off of what we give him")  Also, I doubt we have the money for it.  (we're a pretty small church.  We probably seat like 50 people maybe less..)

 

The church I play for has an attendence of about 100, and all them people are poor, so I dont expect to ever get paid by them.

I dont think they need to be members because, to many muscains this is their job. As an employer, you cant make someone join a church. I do think that churches should raise members to be  musicians, then they wouldnt have to hire outside people. I dont think it makes much of a  difference wether you are a member or not, as long as you are saved, anointed and faithful

Suggested reading: http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,54413.0.html

[vtguy84]

I personally don't see anything wrong with it.  I just finished working with my friend who brought me on as the choir director to get them started.  It started out as once in a while and turned into every Sunday.  I have my own church home, so there was no intention on joining the church.

[momuzik]

I agree that if you have talented musicians who are freely volunteering their time, they should appreciate the freebie.

The only problem with musicians volunteering on a consistent basis is more of a risk for the church than the musician. What I mean is if the church gets used to the volunteer musician, they may start depending on him/ her. He can put the church in a bind musically if he decides to leave. And there's nothing that would hold him if there's no formal arrangement (pay agreement/ contract etc...).

Member/ non-member, either way they can still up and leave whenever they get good and ready.

[Mr_Brown08]

I personally think, it depends on the musician. In some cases, some musicians can play for three different churches, and they not be a member of one! Me personally, it is about the PREACHED word at the location, and then the music. I would talk to this guy and find out what he plans on doing, if he is playing for ya'll and is coming to church consistently for three months, then joining the church shouldn't be a problem, he is already doing the duties a member is anyway!!

[princessofpraise]

I have been in ministry for over 25 years. Until I started singing and playing in multi-cultural churches, I was never paid to do music. I did get offerings when I preached. Being a Creative Arts Pastor for the past 6 years, I look at the stage a little different. I am very selective as to who goes on stage. I just left a full time position to start a new church. So, I don't get paid at this point. But it is the spiritual aspect that I look at. I need someone that is commited to the vision of the house. I don't need a hireling. It isn't really fair to the church to bring in someone who is talented and then "poof" they are gone. That causes too much chaos. Plus it isn't fair to the other musicians that are faithful every week and commited to the vision of the house.

If you are the leader, it is really your call. But that is just the way I run things in the music departments that I lead.

I do, however, invite guest musicians if we have an outreach event or special event. Most of the time I do that to get that musican a chance to play with us. There is no commitment involved in that. And that gives the person a chance to test the waters with our group. I have had a few stay with us after we invited them to play for a special event.

That's how I operate. Others will do differently. There isn't any thing really "set in stone" on that. Just use wise judgement and let God lead you as to how you should lead your department.

[diverse379]

why do you feel a person needs to be a member'

if they are a christian they are a member of the larger body of christ.

I have had this conversation before
and I know there are many who disagree with me

But I have played for churches for two years without being a member
I was even the pastors Armor bearer


and this was a baptist church of a fair size

I personally feel that if a preacher who is not a member can preach in a pulpit as a guest minister

then why cant a  guest musician minister in the band pit
maybe it is not meant for him to be a member maybe it is for a season that his gift is shared


and that is exactly what is happening it is a gift that is shared

most churches have to pay for a (non member to play)

your church is blessed with someone willing to tithe their gifts in your church

but you are looking this gift horse in the mouth

if the man is a man of God
then I dont see what is the problem

we are levites and levites were seperate a separate tribe that ministered to all the other tribes

i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites

the levites were a separate tribe

so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate

the levites were able to minister to all the tribes because they were set apart and separate

also your scripture that you quoted stated that it was to be done until the temple was c ompleted
Levites are the descendants of Levi, one of the Tribes Of Israel, the Children Of Jacob (Genesis 29:34). The term is generally used, from the perspective of The Bible, to identify the part of the tribe that was set apart for the secondary duties of the sanctuary service (1 Kings 8:4, Ezra 2:70), as assistants to the priests, who were also Levites. Although all priests were Levites, not all Levites were priests.
"For the service of The Lord"

Prior to the Exodus, when the Israelites escaped the slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt (see Who Was The Exodus Pharaoh?), the ancient way of worship was yet observed, with the firstborn son of each household inheriting the priest's office. That was changed at Sinai (see Wilderness Journey) when a hereditary priesthood from the family of Aaron was established (Exodus 28:1).

 The Levites were formally set apart after the now-infamous incident with the golden calf idol that the Israelites made while Moses was away receiving The Ten Commandments from The Lord (Exodus chapter 32). The Levites did not take part in the idolatry, and actually killed 3,000 of those who were running wild, as ordered by Moses (Exodus 32:25-29).

After the incident was over, Moses said of the Levites, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of The Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." (Exodus 32:29). The Levites were natural allies of Moses because Moses himself was of the tribe of Levi (Exodus 2:1-2,10).

Levi had 3 sons: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. From those branches of the family, the Levites were organized into 3 levels of service:


The first level was composed of Aaron and his offspring, who were descended from Levi's son Kohath. They formed the priesthood.

The second level was made up of all of the other descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron. They were in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9).

The third level consisted of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari, who were given lesser duties (Numbers 3:21-26,33-37).
The Levites served at the Tabernacle from age 30 to 50 (Numbers 4:3,23,30). They were not counted for military service in the armies of Israel, but were set apart for service to God (Numbers 1:45-50, 2:33, 26:62).

Levites had custody of The Tabernacle (as illustrated above, see also What Happened To The Tabernacle?) (Numbers 1:51, 18:22-24). The Gershonites camped on the west of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:23), the Kohathites on the south (Numbers 3:29), the Merarites on the north (Numbers 3:35), and the priests on the east (Numbers 3:38).



here is what I found on the levites


 

[sjonathan02]

Guest preachers are invited, normally. And, they don't preach for weeks on end the way a "guest" musician would.

Additionally, the "guest" musician would be invited to play (which, I would think, would mean that the "guest" also attended rehearsal. This is a church service not an appearance on, "David Letterman").


Furthermore, "guest" preachers only come once, or even, on occasion. And, they work solo (meaning, they're the only one responsible for the preaching on that day). A "guest" musician is working with a group of people, as a result, they must learn to 'gel' with group.

It's difficult enough dealing with members, who agree with and want to further the vision of the house, coming and going, for whatever reason (i.e. a church that is near an Army base is very transient) leaving fewer voices or taking their particular instrument (say, a bass) with them.

Once or twice, cool. Come for a time, the question has to be asked, "Why not become a member?"

[under13]

maybe it is not meant for him to be a member maybe it is for a season that his gift is shared

I think thats it. Churches want to keep musicians for more than a season. They figure if you become a member then you wont leave as fast as you would if you were not a member

[diverse379]

I think thats it. Churches want to keep musicians for more than a season. They figure if you become a member then you wont leave as fast as you would if you were not a member

I dont know S jonathon and I have had this debate before and many others

but check out the page 5 on this thread
there are some scriptures about the levites that will help us understand i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites

the levites were a separate tribe

so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate

the levites were able to minister to all the tribes because they were set apart and separate

also your scripture that you quoted stated that it was to be done until the temple was c ompleted
Levites are the descendants of Levi, one of the Tribes Of Israel, the Children Of Jacob (Genesis 29:34). The term is generally used, from the perspective of The Bible, to identify the part of the tribe that was set apart for the secondary duties of the sanctuary service (1 Kings 8:4, Ezra 2:70), as assistants to the priests, who were also Levites. Although all priests were Levites, not all Levites were priests.
"For the service of The Lord"

Prior to the Exodus, when the Israelites escaped the slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt (see Who Was The Exodus Pharaoh?), the ancient way of worship was yet observed, with the firstborn son of each household inheriting the priest's office. That was changed at Sinai (see Wilderness Journey) when a hereditary priesthood from the family of Aaron was established (Exodus 28:1).

 The Levites were formally set apart after the now-infamous incident with the golden calf idol that the Israelites made while Moses was away receiving The Ten Commandments from The Lord (Exodus chapter 32). The Levites did not take part in the idolatry, and actually killed 3,000 of those who were running wild, as ordered by Moses (Exodus 32:25-29).

After the incident was over, Moses said of the Levites, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of The Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." (Exodus 32:29). The Levites were natural allies of Moses because Moses himself was of the tribe of Levi (Exodus 2:1-2,10).

Levi had 3 sons: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. From those branches of the family, the Levites were organized into 3 levels of service:


The first level was composed of Aaron and his offspring, who were descended from Levi's son Kohath. They formed the priesthood.

The second level was made up of all of the other descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron. They were in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9).

The third level consisted of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari, who were given lesser duties (Numbers 3:21-26,33-37).
The Levites served at the Tabernacle from age 30 to 50 (Numbers 4:3,23,30). They were not counted for military service in the armies of Israel, but were set apart for service to God (Numbers 1:45-50, 2:33, 26:62).

Levites had custody of The Tabernacle (as illustrated above, see also What Happened To The Tabernacle?) (Numbers 1:51, 18:22-24). The Gershonites camped on the west of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:23), the Kohathites on the south (Numbers 3:29), the Merarites on the north (Numbers 3:35), and the priests on the east (Numbers 3:38).



here is what I found on the levites


that God has set us aside

I am just not convinced to be honest in the spirit I dont feel That God requires his musicians to become members\

God never spoke to me to be a member of any church

I pray on all I do concerning ministry

and I never felt the holy spirit encourage me to be a member.of a church since I have been ministering


It is not like I work any harder as a member than I do when I wasnt a member.


But this is not something anyone will be able to convince me of
this is only something God can reveal to me if that is his will.

Nor will I try any further to convince anyone of my opinion and I will stay clear of this debate in the future

[momuzik]

Making a musician become a member may be a round-about way of a church putting "dibs" on a musician.

[sjonathan02]

Making a musician become a member may be a round-about way of a church putting "dibs" on a musician.

 

Two questions:

a. Why isn't this the same attitude when it comes to a pastor of a church?

b. What is the "problem" with musicians having a set church home?


I'll say this, as long as the "guest" musician isn't looking for compensation, then it sits a bit easier, for ME. 

I maintain that consistency is more apt to occur when the musician is a member. I can't wrap my head around it any other way. 

[momuzik]

I maintain that consistency is more apt to occur when the musician is a member. I can't wrap my head around it any other way. 

I guess it depends on how you look at a musician: as just an employee or as a minister in the church?
I've heard it said that musicians are "flighty" - If your musician is a non-member, then that's a risk that you take.
If a musician joins a church just for the sake of "following the rules" so they can play, to me that's not a genuine reason to join nor does it show any real commitment. You have to ask the question "If this person wasn't playing, would they still be a member of this church?"

If you want consistency in a musician (non-member or not) set up a contract/ payment terms.

[sjonathan02]

I guess it depends on how you look at a musician: as just an employee or as a minister in the church?
I've heard it said that musicians are "flighty" - If your musician is a non-member, then that's a risk that you take.
If a musician joins a church just for the sake of "following the rules" so they can play, to me that's not a genuine reason to join nor does it show any real commitment. You have to ask the question "If this person wasn't playing, would they still be a member of this church?"

If you want consistency in a musician (non-member or not) set up a contract/ payment terms.

I agree; which is why I say what I say. The use of music is a ministry just like the sermon; as a result, we need to stop taking it lightly.


Your last question is a GREAT question.

[Revp98]

Rules.......Rules...........Rules. What are your rules? I am going to give you an actual scenario that played itsself out in church. There was an organist who was pretty good. They only wanted certain people to play when they did. So no guitar, bass, etc. One person show. Whenthe regular drummer was not at church, brought in someone from the outside-although there was another drummer at the church. Big revivals/appreciations/etc. called all of their friends to come play and act as if they didnt know they were coming. One  Sunday (when I used to leave my amp& equipment at church), somebody decided that they would plug a keyboard up. They unplugged it when they saw me come through the door. But they failed to turn it off. To make a long story short, its ok when people want to come in and share in your service. But if they become  permanent fixture, they need to join the church. Again, what is the purpose of playing? But you have to set some groud rules with these folks. Start with the people who invited them. You are not trying to run anyone off, but amongst musicians-word travels fast. And what is taking place and what actually is being passed on by word of mouth could be on oppisite ends of the spectrum. Do it in a nice calm way. Becase if you are not careful, you willl be overrun by musicians who don't need to be there and you will lose control. I would ask your pastors opinion first though to get his input. Therefore when you do what you need to do, he already knows. Because folks will tell on you.

[kodacolor]

Thanks for all your input!  It has been helping me see the issue from different angles.  The ministry had a meeting today and the Pastor explain the rule a bit.  I was looking at it the wrong way.  I can't go into it right now cause I'm busy with chords for tomorrow.  (Technically I shouldn't even be on here but I thought I'd give an up date.

Thank ya much!   

[under13]

If churches want musicians to be members, then they should raise up and train members to be musicains and not try to force hired musicians to be members.

There is nothing wrong with hiring a professional musician to play at your church. Its been done for many many years. I think the problem is that some musicians dont know how to work with a professional decorum, and many black churches dont want to treat musicians like profesionals. They will treat everone else who does a service to the church in a professional maner, except for the musicians. They have no problem paying the landscaper but dont wanna pay the musicians.

SORRY FOR RANTING