Why No Cymbals?

[seemunny]

There's something i've noticed, and i'm not sure why it is.

For example, if you go to an R&B/Neo Soul type concert where the artist has a "live band", the drummer might be pretty tight. And you might see him rippin' those cymbals UP! Cymbal crashes everywhere!

However, if you listen to the "studio recordings" of those same songs, QUITE OFTEN, they seem to OMIT the cymbals! (except for the hi-hat). What's up with that?......Is that some kind of an "inside rule" that many artist like to roll with, that i don't know about?

[fretai03]

How about you give us a little bio of yourself before we start this little conversation? or whether you've been lurking for ages & finally decided to post.

[under13]

Welcome to LGM seemunny,

I'm not a drummer but I think that neo soul is all about keeping it simple. Its about the vocals and to a lesser degree about the electric pianos and bass. I listen to neo soul when I wanna "mellow out"; I dont wanna hear crashing symbols, imo that sounds kinda unmusical and harsh, and would take away from a track. Save all that for some upbeat track or somethin.But it also depends on what kinda song they are doing, and I think a live setting would be be a more appropriate place for chrashes or what have you

Just like in worship music, there are times when you should just keep a simple beat and then there are other times  when you can branch out and go crazy with the crashes. A NS album is just not the place for the drummer (or any musician) to rock out IMO.

Yes crashing cymbols is a pet peave of mine in church music

[seemunny]

Very well said Under13 and thanks. However, i don't want to mislead you.

For instance, if you go to an R&B/Neo Soul concert, on those same "mellow type" songs - the drummer will still probably put his cymbals to use in some capacity. I don't mean go crazy and rock out lol. But i mean just simply "INCLUDE" his cymbals like drummers enjoy doing (where appropriate).

And also, "how hard" you strike the cymbal depends on the flow of the song for sure. But my point is, on many of these recordings that im referring to (moreso R&B than Neo Soul), it seems that the producers have this unwritten rule that "we ain't gon add no kinda crash cymbal to this". Whether soft of hard. They just don't include them "at all" like they would LIVE "on those SAME mellow songs".

And i just found that interesting.

And fretai03, im feeling a tone from you that ain't quite right. I asked a very legit question. Either you have the answer, or you don't. God Bless.

[JFunky]

How about you give us a little bio of yourself before we start this little conversation? or whether you've been lurking for ages & finally decided to post.

...you alright over there fred?

Very well said Under13 and thanks. However, i don't want to mislead you.

For instance, if you go to an R&B/Neo Soul concert, on those same "mellow type" songs - the drummer will still probably put his cymbals to use in some capacity. I don't mean go crazy and rock out lol. But i mean just simply "INCLUDE" his cymbals like drummers enjoy doing (where appropriate).

And also, "how hard" you strike the cymbal depends on the flow of the song for sure. But my point is, on many of these recordings that im referring to (moreso R&B than Neo Soul), it seems that the producers have this unwritten rule that "we ain't gon add no kinda crash cymbal to this". Whether soft of hard. They just don't include them "at all" like they would LIVE "on those SAME mellow songs".

And i just found that interesting.

And fretai03, im feeling a tone from you that ain't quite right. I asked a very legit question. Either you have the answer, or you don't. God Bless.

...welcome to LGM.  I hope this site is a blessing to you as it is and has been to many of us.  With that said, the drummer plays what the producer wants to hear.  That's how you get paid and remain getting payed as a Session Drummer.

[sugabear]

Welcome to the circus my friend. I think that a lot of the producer/artist use drum machines and they don't necessarily want the studio drum track to sound as authentic as it can be. But, a live situation is a different animal. They want a live show to be as authentic as possible. If the song live sounded the way it did on the cd, why would anyone want to come? Just listen to the cd.

[under13]

If the song live sounded the way it did on the cd, why would anyone want to come? Just listen to the cd.

thats funny, cuz in pop concerts they just play the cd while the artist pretends to sing, and all the people go crazy.

[SabianKnight]

Welcome to the circus my friend. I think that a lot of the producer/artist use drum machines and they don't necessarily want the studio drum track to sound as authentic as it can be. But, a live situation is a different animal. They want a live show to be as authentic as possible. If the song live sounded the way it did on the cd, why would anyone want to come? Just listen to the cd.

Good answer.

As well the music game has changed. Record deals in the urban market are based more on ring tones these days and cymbals don't come through on phones well just yet. As well the whole deal of folk programming drums because "everyone thinks they are a producer now" and the cost of having a real drum studio recording is not viable for todays market. This is why so many top studio guys are starting to do work over the internet from their home studios.

Todays music is eliminating the live drummer just as it did in the 80s when drum machine became prevelant. Just as then the drummer has to step his game up and master the machine physically be improving his/her timing metronomically and rhythmically through increased independence, interdependence and textural versatility. We have to have bigger ears and stop looking for the quick fix and to get be seen. Music has to become the number one priority again.

[CARLISLE]

Good answer.

As well the music game has changed. Record deals in the urban market are based more on ring tones these days and cymbals don't come through on phones well just yet. As well the whole deal of folk programming drums because "everyone thinks they are a producer now" and the cost of having a real drum studio recording is not viable for todays market. This is why so many top studio guys are starting to do work over the internet from their home studios.

Todays music is eliminating the live drummer just as it did in the 80s when drum machine became prevelant. Just as then the drummer has to step his game up and master the machine physically be improving his/her timing metronomically and rhythmically through increased independence, interdependence and textural versatility. We have to have bigger ears and stop looking for the quick fix and to get be seen. Music has to become the number one priority again.

WOW!!! AMEN to that

[fretai03]

seemunny I'm sorry, what I posted was wrong. I apologize for it.


On topic: Everything that's been said about cymbals etc has already been said. Hope your getting the knowledge you seek.

[seemunny]

Wow, EACH of your answers were very informative. And thanks for each of your greetings and hospitality.

And Fretai03, it's all good my brotha! i'm cool.

Sugarbear, that's very interesting @ they don't WANT the studio track to sound authentic, whereas, they can basically SAVE the "cymbal authentic sound" for the Live show! hmm, never thought about that.