Need help explaining "Why" to my fellow musicians

[Ladyn]

Hi Everyone,

I need a bit of help.  I have been teaching our P&W team musicians some music theory in order to get us all on the same page, and so that we can convert to the number system.  I have been doing this for 2 months now by starting with scales, intervals, chords, and basic progressions. I even explained the roman numeral system and about leading tones, relationship between the 4 chord and it's 1 chord etc. Explained relationships that help you predict what chord comes next and so on.  Today someone told me they did not understand why they needed to understand the number system.  That hit me like a Ton of bricks!! I have been working like crazy making sure I covered all of the basics, and making them notebooks with all of this explained very well  (or so I thought). Somehow the bass player understands, but the other keyboard player does not. I have demonstrated basic progressions, and we have done exercises around the circle of 5ths using just a basic 1-4-2-5-1 pattern in each key. 

I am a bit down right now because I just don't know how else to get the rest to see the freedom that comes with understanding the numbers and learning progression patterns  then applying them to songs.  What else can I say or do to help their understanding in this area?    What might I have done wrong? Do I just need to give them time to grasp it?  I really need some advise on this, and I do appreciate any feedback you all can give me.

Thanks,

Nichole

[betnich]

Can the keyboard player do songs in different keys? If so, try having them play a simple song in several - then point out the interval relationship between the chords (in C, C is the first note of the scale, in G, it's G that's the first note or tonic).

I do this with my students from time to time...

[B3Wannabe]

Hi Everyone,

I need a bit of help.  I have been teaching our P&W team musicians some music theory in order to get us all on the same page, and so that we can convert to the number system.  I have been doing this for 2 months now by starting with scales, intervals, chords, and basic progressions. I even explained the roman numeral system and about leading tones, relationship between the 4 chord and it's 1 chord etc. Explained relationships that help you predict what chord comes next and so on.  Today someone told me they did not understand why they needed to understand the number system.  That hit me like a Ton of bricks!! I have been working like crazy making sure I covered all of the basics, and making them notebooks with all of this explained very well  (or so I thought). Somehow the bass player understands, but the other keyboard player does not. I have demonstrated basic progressions, and we have done exercises around the circle of 5ths using just a basic 1-4-2-5-1 pattern in each key. 

I am a bit down right now because I just don't know how else to get the rest to see the freedom that comes with understanding the numbers and learning progression patterns  then applying them to songs.  What else can I say or do to help their understanding in this area?    What might I have done wrong? Do I just need to give them time to grasp it?  I really need some advise on this, and I do appreciate any feedback you all can give me.

Thanks,

Nichole

My opinion is that you helped the person too much. Just let him chew on the information that you gave him, and then you and the bass player can flow. When he sees that he's missing out then he'll start asking questions.

But this all depends on you two progressing "faster" than him. If he feels that he "knows" more then it'll just fortify him even more in his stance.

[T-Block]

You must realize that some people will NEVER understand why they need to learn certain things about music.  Others will catch on later, like B3 said, once they see how faster others are progressing.  You just keep doing what u doing and hope that one day the light bulb comes on.

If you have to take people aside one-on-one and explain some things, then do that.  Remember that the student doesn't really know what is best for him/her, the teacher does.  That goes for choirs, bands, or whatever.

[Ladyn]

Thanks for the responses.  I guess I need to be more patient with them. 

TBlock: I think I will pull this individual to the side and explain some things specific to the keyboard.  That may help even more.

 

You must realize that some people will NEVER understand why they need to learn certain things about music.  Others will catch on later, like B3 said, once they see how faster others are progressing.  You just keep doing what u doing and hope that one day the light bulb comes on.

If you have to take people aside one-on-one and explain some things, then do that.  Remember that the student doesn't really know what is best for him/her, the teacher does.  That goes for choirs, bands, or whatever.

Great advise! Thanks!

[Rjthakid]

The real question is do they WANT to learn.  Trying to teach someone who doesn't WANT to learn is a waste of time.  I know what it's like to deal with musicians who have know desire to branch out and perfect their craft. 

Yes, it is frustrating.

[Metronome]

Yeah....some people just learn faster than others.........like me lol.  I learned the whole number thing when i was like 13, before theory OR keyboards....lol just as a drummer.  I liked math so the whole 1-3-6-2-5-1 thing was kinda simple......if the person wants to learn it they will.......just let it ride

[Virtuenow]

My Similar Story:

I was one of those people who never wanted to learn theory.  I thought it was stupid...and a waste of time.  Especially since you could just get chords from other people or play by ear.  I was so tired of people on the Chord board telling me to learn theory. 

However, I got tired.  At some point I realized I had no freedom to express myself on the piano.  Just a copy-cat.  What's worse, I realized I did not know what I was playing-- or why I was playing it.  Those things started to bother me so much, coupled with the fact that I was not progressing.  I was stagnated at the same point.  It was at that point that a light bulb went off in my head.  I had a deep desire to know more and more (Thank you Jesus).  I didn't know what I was missing. 

Questions to ask:

Maybe you should ask the person(s) if they know what they are playing.  Can they explain the chords they are playing; or the relationship between the chords, key, or pattern?  Do they know why they are playing in such a way?  Ask these and some more questions.  When they cant answer the questions, a light bulb should go off.  They will probably feel a bit "dumb" with regard to their musical knowledge.  That is- if they are not too cocky.  This is not to make anyone feel dumb, but to show them that they can be so much better.

[BroAllan]

My opinion is that you helped the person too much. Just let him chew on the information that you gave him, and then you and the bass player can flow.

You must realize that some people will NEVER understand why they need to learn certain things about music. Others will catch on later, like B3 said, once they see how faster others are progressing.  You just keep doing what u doing and hope that one day the light bulb comes on.

The real question is do they WANT to learn.

Yeah....some people just learn faster than others.........like me lol. 

I was one of those people who never wanted to learn theory.  I thought it was stupid...and a waste of time.  Especially since you could just get chords from other people or play by ear. 

From my own experience, one thing that could be a big stumbling block in a person's desire to learn music theory, is his or her ability to play by ear.  It seems that the stronger the ability to play by ear, the less of a desire to know the theory part.  In his or her eyes, there's really not a need for that.

So it becomes a challenge to convey to them, just how learning music theory will help them.   

[musallio]

From my experience, the musicians who do not want to learn theory tend come to a point where they "hit a wall"..

Meanwhile, you who are willing to learn the fundamentals actually progress faster & once they see your progress, they start coming to you..

So I agree with B3..he poly thinks he knows it all because you guys are being kind & nagging him..Just move on & he'll come pleading to you if he really loves his craft..

I also agree with BroAllan..but I think it's dumb not to want to learn theory just because you have a good ear because there are so many good ear players out there who understand the importance of theory.

[B3Wannabe]

I don't think John Peters and Melvin Crispell know a lot of theory, or at least that what I felt from watching their videos. This may be different now, since the videos are old. They do have VERY strong ears, and I'm sure they can listen to a song one time, then pop out their own version on a whim. I admire both of these guys, and have been looking up to them since 1993!

Knowing either is good, but knowing both is definitely better.

A theory person can't really come to a person that has a good ear and say, "You need to learn this." It won't work. From my experience, it'll always be the case that they feel you're the novice and should be getting lessons from them. This may not be the case with this dude, though. That's why I said just do your thing, and when you and the bass player are jamming; you're giving progressions and the bass player is able to follow, but this other guy is stumbling, he'll either want to learn, or get worse and start trying to outplay you guys. You should know his spirit better than me, and probably know which he'd do.

[under13]

I don't think John Peters and Melvin Crispell know a lot of theory, or at least that what I felt from watching their videos. This may be different now, since the videos are old. They do have VERY strong ears, and I'm sure they can listen to a song one time, then pop out their own version on a whim. I admire both of these guys, and have been looking up to them since 1993!

Knowing either is good, but knowing both is definitely better.

A theory person can't really come to a person that has a good ear and say, "You need to learn this." It won't work. From my experience, it'll always be the case that they feel you're the novice and should be getting lessons from them. This may not be the case with this dude, though. That's why I said just do your thing, and when you and the bass player are jamming; you're giving progressions and the bass player is able to follow, but this other guy is stumbling, he'll either want to learn, or get worse and start trying to outplay you guys. You should know his spirit better than me, and probably know which he'd do.

Thats what I was thinking. How skilled are these guys? Is there really a problem? I would only continue with this if there is a problem. Yeah theory is good, but its not always necasarry, as we can see with John Peters and MC

[Ladyn]

Thats what I was thinking. How skilled are these guys? Is there really a problem? I would only continue with this if there is a problem. Yeah theory is good, but its not always necasarry, as we can see with John Peters and MC

Thank you everyone for your help.  I did fail to mention that there is a problem with the level of playing with this individual.  They play most of their chords in root position, rely on others for chords, and can not build anything beyond a 7th chord on their own.  It makes it hard when I have to teach a new song to also teach the voicing of the chords or why are we playing a C# chord over a G at the time of teaching it to the singers.  If I say descend chromatically, or even if we are playing something they have played before using 1-4-5 and I add in the 6-2-5-1 or a diminished chord it becomes an issue.  I am not the best player by any means; I am growing and learning everyday.  I do try to make the songs interesting and different hence the lessons so that we all can understand what is being done in these songs and not be tied to a lead sheet!! It would be different if they had a good ear and could pick up what they hear, but they can't do that at all!     I guess I need to be patient and pray.

Virtuenow: I appreciate your honesty it has helped me to understand what I am dealing with. 

BTW: John Peters and Melvin Crispell are awesome musicians.  I think they have an understanding of music that enables them to do amazing things without lookin'. 


 

[musallio]

Yes, CO-SIGN to that..

Theory is only a means to an end..what matters is being able to play what's needed.

[under13]

Thank you everyone for your help.  I did fail to mention that there is a problem with the level of playing with this individual.  They play most of their chords in root position, rely on others for chords, and can not build anything beyond a 7th chord on their own.  It makes it hard when I have to teach a new song to also teach the voicing of the chords or why are we playing a C# chord over a G at the time of teaching it to the singers.  If I say descend chromatically, or even if we are playing something they have played before using 1-4-5 and I add in the 6-2-5-1 or a diminished chord it becomes an issue.  I am not the best player by any means; I am growing and learning everyday.  I do try to make the songs interesting and different hence the lessons so that we all can understand what is being done in these songs and not be tied to a lead sheet!! It would be different if they had a good ear and could pick up what they hear, but they can't do that at all!     I guess I need to be patient and pray.

Virtuenow: I appreciate your honesty it has helped me to understand what I am dealing with. 

BTW: John Peters and Melvin Crispell are awesome musicians.  I think they have an understanding of music that enables them to do amazing things without lookin'.  

 

Yeah go ahead and make them learn theory. You are the leader, so they should listen and learn.

As for the last comment. There are So many guys who can do the most amazing stuff and have no understanding of what they do, They just feel it

[sjonathan02]

Yes, CO-SIGN to that..

Theory is only a means to an end..what matters is being able to play what's needed.

Thus. my. struggle. 

[musallio]

Thus. my. struggle. 

I know what U man..Not the greatest feeling

But like MM's signature say man..we can get there..

I respect anyone who tries to play music..But I just adore some1 with the best of both worlds--theory & can play (whether it's by feel or sheer hard work).

I absolutely adore such players if they are humble

[sjonathan02]

I know what U man..Not the greatest feeling

But like MM's signature say man..we can get there..

I respect anyone who tries to play music..But I just adore some1 with the best of both worlds--theory & can play (whether it's by feel or sheer hard work).

I absolutely adore such players if they are humble

Agreed and Indeed.

[Ladyn]

Yes, CO-SIGN to that..

Theory is only a means to an end..what matters is being able to play what's needed.

 Exactly what I needed!  I am going to use this quote in our next practice.  I just want everyone to be able to play what is needed without so much "drama"

[T-Block]

I don't know if there is anyone our there like me, but I find it extremely difficult to play w/out theory.  If I don't understand something, I can't play it effectively.  I can spit it back like a computer, but w/out that understanding it won't mean diddly squat to me.