Chord Challenge: What is this Chord?

[sjonathan02]

^lol music is music doc. V went to I in Bach's time, it still does now .

 

[T-Block]

Wow, what is going on in here?  I leave for a few days and I come back to chaos, LOL.  This is a good discussion you guys and gals (mostly guys, lol).  When I have time to play this chord and watch the video I'll be back with what I think is going on here.

[DaNatiMaestro]

The link that RealityCheck had in his post is exactly the song/move I was talking about.  So be sure to listen to it in its application.  Thanks for the link Reality..

The more I hear this move the more I think the chord is some type of diminished chord. (F dim, Ab dim...)  Even though I've been known to precede a G minor chord with a F minor chord moving toward the G minor in like whole steps or diatonically if you will.

If I was going to do an Ab chord before the Gminor it would have been some type of altered Ab dominant 7 chord then resolve to G minor chord.  Using the Ab dominant 7th chord as a tritone substitution for the D dominant 7 that you would normally use to precede a G minor chord.

So when I didn't see GbC in the voicing and instead FB it TOTALLY threw me off.  I was able to identify everything she did except for that. 

But I'm to the point that I'm with 4HG that the "pros" are using any chord quality so.. why not change the Ab dominant to an Ab diminished chord?  Why not change the F minor chord to a F diminished? Especially if your ear is the judge and final say on it.  Your ear can sometimes throw the theory out the window.. LOL

I'm glad that this has sparked some conversation on the topic.  Ideally I would love to ask her directly but she probably touring somewhere with Shelia E in her group C.O.E.D.  I may hit her up on MySpace and see if she could add some light to this debate but this is some good stuff nonetheless!!!

[4hisglory]

But I'm to the point that I'm with 4HG that the "pros" are using any chord quality so.. why not change the Ab dominant to an Ab diminished chord?  Why not change the F minor chord to a F diminished? Especially if your ear is the judge and final say on it.  Your ear can sometimes throw the theory out the window.. LOL

Exactly, the key is how "YOU" think about it and put it into your playing.

To me, the real key to playing is "Chord Voicings".  Like I said before, any  chord can lead to any chord if you voice it right.

Here is a little example

Here is the "standard progression"  That most poeple are stuck in:   

ii, V progression in C
D to G

But here are two substitutions.
D to E (sub the iii, for the V)
D to B (sub the vii for the V)

tritone subsitution
D to Db (Db is the tritone sub for G)
D to Bb (Bb is the tritone sub for E)
D to F (F is the tritone sub for B).


All of the above a sound theoretical progressions, but the the key is "How to Voice them correctly".

[sjonathan02]

Exactly, the key is how "YOU" think about it and put it into your playing.

To me, the real key to playing is "Chord Voicings".  Like I said before, any  chord can lead to any chord if you voice it right.

Here is a little example

Here is the "standard progression"  That most poeple are stuck in:   

ii, V progression in C
D to G

But here are two substitutions.
D to E (sub the iii, for the V)
D to B (sub the vii for the V)

tritone subsitution
D to Db (Db is the tritone sub for G)
D to Bb (Bb is the tritone sub for E)
D to F (F is the tritone sub for B).


All of the above a sound theoretical progressions, but the the key is "How to Voice them correctly".

But, you didn't share the various type of voicings of each chord. In other words, what kind of E chord, B chord, Db chord, etc.?

I can't wait, Professor.  I love this conversation.

[DaNatiMaestro]

But here are two substitutions.
D to E (sub the iii, for the V)
D to B (sub the vii for the V)

I think I can answer part of this..

the E chord would be an E minor E-G-B because he said iii (iii means minor over 3rd of C Major)
the B chord would be a B half-dim B-D-F because he said vii (in this case vii is a half diminished chord off 7th of C Major)

not sure what he had in mind for the second set of substitutions.

[4hisglory]

Ding Ding ding.  

JR got it, and I know SJ knew it to, its just a different way of doing business.  i'll be back with explainations of the others.

[sjonathan02]

Ding Ding ding.  

JR got it, and I know SJ knew it to, its just a different way of doing business.  i'll be back with explainations of the others.

  I didn't want to leave out the budding beginners who'll stumble upon this really great thread.


As for the other set, I'd say make them major (or major 7ths, possibly; and I should add dominant 7ths, as well) .

[4hisglory]

Ok

Db and G have the same tritone - F and B

G7 - G B D F
Db7 - Db F Ab B

So substitution like these will be based on (well for me anyways) where the melody is located. 

Here is a simple example:

D / A C D F
G / G B D F
C / E G B D - ending on the CM9

try this:

D  / A C D F
Db / Ab B Db F
C  / E G B D

You could even do this:

D  / A C D F
Db / G B D F
C  / E G B D - ending on the CM9


Notes:
-Your ear will have to become accustom to the new sound
-Don't try this stuff if you are playing with a bass player

[musallio]

Ok

Db and G have the same tritone - F and B

G7 - G B D F
Db7 - Db F Ab B

So substitution like these will be based on (well for me anyways) where the melody is located. 

Here is a simple example:

D / A C D F
G / G B D F
C / E G B D - ending on the CM9

try this:

D  / A C D F
Db / Ab B Db F
C  / E G B D

You could even do this:

D  / A C D F
Db / G B D F
C  / E G B D - ending on the CM9


Notes:
-Your ear will have to become accustom to the new sound
-Don't try this stuff if you are playing with a bass player

mmmhhhh..interesting stuff indeed...

thanx the lightbulb.

[4hisglory]

Here is how you can make this work with the Bb

D / A C D F
Bb / Ab B D F - I Used the Bb Flat 9 chord
C / E G B D - ending on the CM9

*notice that the Bb Flat 9 chord has 3 or the same notes as the G7

[T-Block]

I was watching the Cassandrea O'neal DVD and she used the following chord as a passing chord to the 3 (G minor) in key of Eb:

AbF/BEbG

I can't classify this chord for the life of me.. it sounds like its some kind of diminished chord..

The whole move was this..

AbF/BEbG,Ab
GF/BbDFBb

so would you call this chord an Ab dim M7 (#5)???

What about an Fm9(b5) in 1st inversion?

The whole point of the move is to resolve to the G minor or the 3...

so far I got that she was either doing a

Ab dim resolve to  G minor
or Db7(b5) resolve to  G minor

You can see it as Fm9b5/Ab. A jazz player that could not reach it would leave the Ab out.

if you didnt get a chance to watch the video, please do; the link is my previous post. listen to what she does with the g in the right hand right before she goes to g minor. it resolves upwards, which leads me to the conclusion that the g is a retardation to the Ab.  the chord is spelled: AbF/BEb(G~>Ab). rearrange that into thirds, and u get F Ab B Eb. no G because the G resolved upwards.

that spells Fmin9b5.

Alrighty then, I have seen the video and read through all the responses.  I highlighted a few of them I believe are great responses.  From what I can tell, there seems to be an argument/discussion of whether the root is Ab or F.

I am going to respell the chord then explain what I think it is:  Ab-F / Cb-Eb-G, Ab

Part 1:

I believe that the root is indeed Ab and I call this an Abm6 chord.  Like reality check explained, the G is not really a part of the chord.  It is a non-harmonic tone called an appogitura.  So, when u take away the G, you are left with Ab-Cb-Eb-F, thus an Abm6 chord. 

It is also be an Fm7 (b5), if I believed that the root was indeed the missing F on the bottom.

Part 2:

I see a tritone in there - F, B.

I would call it either a Db7(b5) or a G7(#5,b9).  The only thing that's missing is a root to define which on it is.  I would go with Db7(b5).

It's like a twisted, stretched tritone substitution on the Gm7 (a true tritone substitution would be for a G7).

When I first heard this chord, I recognized the sound from another song "I Need You Now" Smokie Norful.  When Smokie went into the chorus "I need You nooooowwww....", on the 4th time he sung it, he played a series of 2 chords get to 5.  The first chord was a major chord built on b7, then he went to a dom 7 (b5) chord built on the b6.  So, it went like this:

Key Ab  LH/RH

Gb / Db-Gb-Bb (b7)
Fb / Ab-D-Gb-Bb (b6)
Eb (5) *this chord isn't important to the discussion, LOL

I'm going to change the key F and show it:

Eb / Bb-Eb-G
Db / Cb-Eb-G

Now, that last chord should look familiar, well the RH part of it.  It's the same chord used in this discussion, but here the root is Db.  So, I see exactly why darkwing said the missing root could be Db cuz this is immediately where my mind went when I 1st heard and played it.  Unfortunately, since the G is not part of the chord, this can't be a possiblity.

[rEaLiTy|cHecK]

Alrighty then, I have seen the video and read through all the responses.  I highlighted a few of them I believe are great responses.  From what I can tell, there seems to be an argument/discussion of whether the root is Ab or F.

I am going to respell the chord then explain what I think it is:  Ab-F / Cb-Eb-G, Ab

Part 1:

I believe that the root is indeed Ab and I call this an Abm6 chord.  Like reality check explained, the G is not really a part of the chord.  It is a non-harmonic tone called an appogitura.  So, when u take away the G, you are left with Ab-Cb-Eb-F, thus an Abm6 chord. 

It is also be an Fm7 (b5), if I believed that the root was indeed the missing F on the bottom.

Part 2:

When I first heard this chord, I recognized the sound from another song "I Need You Now" Smokie Norful.  When Smokie went into the chorus "I need You nooooowwww....", on the 4th time he sung it, he played a series of 2 chords get to 5.  The first chord was a major chord built on b7, then he went to a dom 7 (b5) chord built on the b6.  So, it went like this:

Key Ab  LH/RH

Gb / Db-Gb-Bb (b7)
Fb / Ab-D-Gb-Bb (b6)
Eb (5) *this chord isn't important to the discussion, LOL

I'm going to change the key F and show it:

Eb / Bb-Eb-G
Db / Cb-Eb-G

Now, that last chord should look familiar, well the RH part of it.  It's the same chord used in this discussion, but here the root is Db.  So, I see exactly why darkwing said the missing root could be Db cuz this is immediately where my mind went when I 1st heard and played it.  Unfortunately, since the G is not part of the chord, this can't be a possiblity.

oops, in the post you quoted me, i meant to put fmin7b5, which is still my final answer lol. its still my opinion that context makes this a ii chord, and not a IV chord. you make a good argument though

[T-Block]

oops, in the post you quoted me, i meant to put fmin7b5, which is still my final answer lol. its still my opinion that context makes this a ii chord, and not a IV chord. you make a good argument though

Yeah man, I understand your argument as well.  I wanted to call it a b7 chord, until i realized the thing about that G note being non-harmonic, LOL.  Then, that would make it a weird 7-3-6 type progression.

[musallio]

Yeah, I was tempted several times to say it is an Ab root, but, when playing the simple bass, F sounds like the correct root to me.
So i still go for the Fm like some guys have explained here.
like I said earlier, the 4 is used to sub the 2 in order to spice up the chord..that's what my ear tells me.