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Author Topic: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)  (Read 28783 times)

DaNatiMaestro

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Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« on: December 08, 2007, 10:13:38 AM »
Hey folks.. you thought I forgot didn't you?? No, I was waiting on just the right chord and I think I found a good one!!  It is the Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 chord.

You would use this chord as a passing chord to get to another chord within a progression.  This would also be an altered chord because we've altered the 13th by flatting it and the 9th by sharping it.

Let's look at this chord:

Eb7(b13 #9) LH/RH = Eb/GCbDbF#

Chord breakdown wise: in the LH you have the Root, in the RH you have the 3,b13,b7,#9

A note here.. b13 is equivalent to #5, so in the key of Eb.. b13 = Cb or B, #5 = Bb(#) or B.. they are the same note but for the purposes of this post we'll call that note a b13.

How would you use this chord?

In a major 2-5-1 progression use this chord as a substitute for the 5 chord:

in the Key of Ab a normal 2-5-1 progression would be:
LH/RH   NUMBER BREAKDOWN  Chord Name
Bb/AbCDbF    1/b7-9-b3-5   Bbm9
Eb/GBbDbF    1/3-5-b7-9     Eb9
Ab/GBbCEb    1/7-9-3-5      Abmaj9

Remember that I'm adding the 9th freely here to add some color to these chords.

Here is that same 2-5-1 progression with the dom7b13#9 added

again in the key of Ab, the substitution is going to happen on the 5 chord.. we're changing it from a Eb9 to Eb7b13#9.

LH/RH    NUMBER BREAKDOWN  Chord Name
Bb/AbCDbF     1/b7-9-b3-5       Bbm9
Eb/GCbDbF#   1/3-b13-b7-#9   Eb7b13#9
AbG/BbCEbG   1-7/9-3-5-7       Abmaj9

note: on that Abmaj9 here added the G on top to have a smooth voice leading as you can see that top note or melody note is moving chromatically from F-F#-G that sounds really good to the ear!

Play the original progression and then play it with the change and hear how smooth the progression gets.

You can use this chord as a passing chord to get to the Imaj7 or Idom7 or..... Imin7!!!!! I'll post that minor progression a lil later..

Here is the 7b13#9 chord in every key around the circle of 4th/5ths.  This is how you should practice every chord to really get them under your hands.  If you print this out, dictate on the chord whether the chord starts off the 3rd or b7th!! This should help with your chord placements/voicings also as another exercise write out the number to each of the notes in the chord. This will begin to help you identify which notes are the altered ones (b13, #9) and which ones are part of the original harmony (1, 3, b7).

Tasks:
1. Write out whether the chord is off the 3rd or off the 7th.
2. Write out the numbers of the notes in the chord and then write which notes are altered ones (b13, #9) and original harmony (1, 3, b7).

I'll do the first couple of ones for you.. you have to do the rest though.

C7b13#9      C/EAbBbD#     off 3rd   1/3-b13-b7-#9  Alt: Ab, D# Orig.: C, E, Bb
F7b13#9      F/ADbEbG#     off 3rd   1/3-b13-b7-#9  Alt: Db, G# Orig.: F, A, Eb
Bb7b13#9    Bb/AbC#DGb    off b7th  ??
Eb7b13#9    Eb/GCbDbF#    off ????  ??
Ab7b13#9    Ab/GbBCE
Db7b13#9    Db/FACbE
Gb7b13#9    Gb/BbDEA
B7b13#9      B/ADEbG
E7b13#9      E/AbCDG
A7b13#9      A/GCDbF
D7b13#9      D/F#BbCF
G7b13#9      G/FBbBEb

another note: this chord is really hard to write out.  some of these notes should really be written "correctly" like the A# (#9) on the G7b13#9 chord or the E# (#9) on the D7b13#9 chord but I wrote it as Bb and F respectively to make it easier to read and chord.

Just another tool to add to your toolbelt!

I'm sure if you're like me and you run through the circle of 4th/5th exercise you'll notice that you play these chords already but probably didn't know what it was and it just sounded good.. well now you know!!

Any questions or comments post them!! or if you find other uses for this chord post them as well!!
 

Offline chevonee

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2007, 02:48:27 PM »
DaNat you are the man!!!!!! :o :o :o I have just one question if I may, and I hope this isn't a stupid question. Could you please explain what you mean when you say off the 3rd and off the 7th. Again please forgive my ignorance, I've just never heard that particular term. Thanks in advance and God bless you! ;)
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DaNatiMaestro

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2007, 04:11:44 PM »
Quote
Could you please explain what you mean when you say off the 3rd and off the 7th.

Absolutely!!

This is what I wrote from Cool Chord #1 post...

When I say off the 3rd or off the b7th, I mean the chord that you're playing in your right hand.  C/EGbBbD this chord is starting off the E in the right hand so it's starting off the 3rd.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

Chevonee does that make sense? I wanna make sure its clear to you.

Offline darkwing

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2007, 04:36:01 PM »
It's just a #5.  It's not a b13 unless the 5 is in the chord too...

Eb(#9,b13) - LH/RH - Eb Bb / Db Gb G B

DW
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DaNatiMaestro

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2007, 04:47:17 PM »
It's just a #5.  It's not a b13 unless the 5 is in the chord too...

Eb(#9,b13) - LH/RH - Eb Bb / Db Gb G B

DW

I'm sorry but which rule is that I must have missed and so have all of the many authors and jazz musicians who play that chord without the 5.

This is when theory goes too far.. when two people say the same thing but differently and cause confusion.

And here's another question for you.. how would you chord that with just the LH?  I wrote those chords out so that they could be used either with the LH playing bass and RH with the chord or with a bass player and the left hand playing the chord.. the chord you listed BbDbGbGB would be so difficult to play with just your left hand in the midst of a progression.. GBDbGb is easier and connect smoothly with other chords.. I put thought to how these chords are arranged and it is the standard that any jazz teacher or book would show you.

But yes.. a b13 is "just" a #5

I'll leave the theory to the theory heads and just post the chords.

Please play what feels and sounds right to you.

Offline T-Block

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2007, 05:01:27 PM »
It's just a #5.  It's not a b13 unless the 5 is in the chord too...

Eb(#9,b13) - LH/RH - Eb Bb / Db Gb G B

DW

Ummm, I don't think so man because the 5th may be omitted from a chord altogether, as long as the 3rd and 7th are present, which they are.  So, DaNati is correct with the name of the chord.
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Offline rayjohnson83

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2007, 05:29:42 PM »
DaNati, you have done it again. nice post man. Where did you get that chord from?

Offline darkwing

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2007, 08:50:27 PM »
If the 5th is present then it's a b13.  If not, then it's a #5.  Saying b13 implies that the 5th is present and unaltered.  Just me being anal.   ;)

It's the same situation with a #11.  If the 5th is present, then it's a #11; if not, then it's just a b5.

It doesn't mean the chord is any less cool.

The reason you don't see a lot of #11's and b13's in chords is because of the strong dissonance between the 5th and these alterations.  Instead you see b5's and #5's.  It takes a lot of expirementation to come up with a voicing in which the #11 and 5 or the b13 and 5 don't clash hard.  The guy who could really do this well was Thelonius Monk.

Theory is about communication, not rules.

Sorry to be so nitpicky.  :)
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2007, 11:01:03 PM »
Easy fellas, we're all gleaning information from one another. That's all.  ;) :)
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Offline chevonee

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2007, 11:01:49 PM »
Yes now I understand. Thanks for breakin it down for me. ;)
Strike while the iron is hot!

Offline darkwing

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2007, 03:23:50 AM »
I know the first time someone nit-picked on my chord naming I was a little annoyed, but once he explained it nicely to me, it all made sense.

 8)

God Bless!

DW
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Offline T-Block

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2007, 11:07:53 AM »
That's a nice explanation darkwing, but I still don't fully agree with it.  You're still not taking in to account the omission of the 5th as long as the 3rd and 7th are present.  Let me ask you a few questions so that I can make a connection:

This chord, Eb / Db-G-C-Eb, is an Eb13 chord right?  I got my 1 / b7-3-13-1, my 5th is not there.

If the answer to the above question is correct, isn't it the same as what DaNati was explaining?

If the answer is incorrect, what would you call it?
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2007, 11:50:31 AM »
That's a nice explanation darkwing, but I still don't fully agree with it.  You're still not taking in to account the omission of the 5th as long as the 3rd and 7th are present.  Let me ask you a few questions so that I can make a connection:

This chord, Eb / Db-G-C-Eb, is an Eb13 chord right?  I got my 1 / b7-3-13-1, my 5th is not there.

If the answer to the above question is correct, isn't it the same as what DaNati was explaining?

If the answer is incorrect, what would you call it?


An Eb7add6, perhaps?  :-\
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Offline cas10a

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2007, 12:39:59 PM »
Original Chord = Eb+9+5 (Ebaug9+5)

Dom13 implies the 5th (Bb) should be in the chord whether you play it or not...

However we understand that in jazz circles chords are usually built off the 7th, that is probably why Danati used the name most common in jazz.

Either way good explanation Danati

Offline darkwing

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2007, 03:09:34 AM »
That's a nice explanation darkwing, but I still don't fully agree with it.  You're still not taking in to account the omission of the 5th as long as the 3rd and 7th are present.  Let me ask you a few questions so that I can make a connection:

This chord, Eb / Db-G-C-Eb, is an Eb13 chord right?  I got my 1 / b7-3-13-1, my 5th is not there.

If the answer to the above question is correct, isn't it the same as what DaNati was explaining?

If the answer is incorrect, what would you call it?

My quick & dirty answer is that your chord is an Eb7(13).  I'm working on a master list of dominant chords and nomenclature explanations which I will post on my website and reply with the link when complete.  My cramped hands thank you!  ;)

A little more on my quick & dirty answer:
   * The 5th may be omitted except in the special case of the #11 or b13 in which its presence is required to create the indicated harmony.  If it is not present, then it is a b5 or #5 respectively.  Try including/excluding the perfect 5th with the #11 or b13 and you will hear how different they are from the b5 or #5.  Then try coming up with nice voicings for a V7(#11) and V7(b13).  It's not easy and I can't think of any off the top of my head.  The suggestion I've heard is to place the perfect 5th and the respective alteration as far apart as possible.  :)  I find it so interesting that the b9 doesn't clash with the root, and the #9 doesn't clash with the 3rd.  Perhaps it has something to do with the fact the the root and 3rd are the strongest notes while the 5th is quite weak and is only brought to light when played with an adjacent note.
   * If you really don't want the 5th, then write Eb7(13, omit 5).  Yuck!  I prefer to not to be too anal about including/excluding the 5th.
   * "When in doubt, spell it out" - i.e. - If you think your chord name will just add confusion, then just spell it out.  I've had to learn to use chord symbols that are familiar to those around me, while still helping them improve their notation.  It takes a lot of give and take.  "Pick your battles"  :)

Continuing to make us all think...

Sometimes I think I like to think about music more than I like to play it.   ?/?

DW
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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2007, 09:22:36 AM »
My quick & dirty answer is that your chord is an Eb7(13).  I'm working on a master list of dominant chords and nomenclature explanations which I will post on my website and reply with the link when complete.  My cramped hands thank you!  ;)

A little more on my quick & dirty answer:
   * The 5th may be omitted except in the special case of the #11 or b13 in which its presence is required to create the indicated harmony.  If it is not present, then it is a b5 or #5 respectively.  Try including/excluding the perfect 5th with the #11 or b13 and you will hear how different they are from the b5 or #5.  Then try coming up with nice voicings for a V7(#11) and V7(b13).  It's not easy and I can't think of any off the top of my head.  The suggestion I've heard is to place the perfect 5th and the respective alteration as far apart as possible.  :)  I find it so interesting that the b9 doesn't clash with the root, and the #9 doesn't clash with the 3rd.  Perhaps it has something to do with the fact the the root and 3rd are the strongest notes while the 5th is quite weak and is only brought to light when played with an adjacent note.
   * If you really don't want the 5th, then write Eb7(13, omit 5).  Yuck!  I prefer to not to be too anal about including/excluding the 5th.
   * "When in doubt, spell it out" - i.e. - If you think your chord name will just add confusion, then just spell it out.  I've had to learn to use chord symbols that are familiar to those around me, while still helping them improve their notation.  It takes a lot of give and take.  "Pick your battles"  :)

Continuing to make us all think...

Sometimes I think I like to think about music more than I like to play it.   ?/?

DW

If no one else will ask the question, I will: Why not call it an Eb7add6 or even an Eb7 (6); why the (13)? ?/? :-\
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Offline cas10a

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2007, 09:32:15 AM »
If no one else will ask the question, I will: Why not call it an Eb7add6 or even an Eb7 (6); why the (13)? ?/? :-\


I didn't think it was a question to ask...you are correct it is a Eb7add6... ;) 8)

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2007, 09:47:48 AM »
Note: Eb7/6 is also known as Eb7/13...you either add the 6 or add the 13 (which is the same note)

Eb7/6 = Eb-G-(Bb)-(C=6th)-Db

Eb7/13 = Eb-G-(Bb)-Db-(C=13th)

Offline T-Block

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2007, 09:51:07 AM »
O.K. darkwing, now i understand where you coming from, I can get with that answer.  You have just opened my eyes up to something i didn't fully study in music theory yet.  Thanks!!!

Sometimes I think I like to think about music more than I like to play it.   ?/?

I'm wit ya here, I also like the thinking behind the music more than playing.  If I could, I would spend all day on theory, but I gotta play it sometime, LOL.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: Cool Chord #2 - Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 - 7(b13 #9)
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2007, 11:39:55 AM »
O.K. darkwing, now i understand where you coming from, I can get with that answer.  You have just opened my eyes up to something i didn't fully study in music theory yet.  Thanks!!!

I'm wit ya here, I also like the thinking behind the music more than playing.  If I could, I would spend all day on theory, but I gotta play it sometime, LOL.


Man, I am SOOOO opposite. Theory bores me to tears.  :-\

I wish I could play it the way I hear it and can read it. :-\ :(
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