Cycle of 5th explain PLS!!

[Fenix]

I have been watching Jamal Hartwell's DVD...great stuff!!

I am just a bit confused about the theory behind the cycle of 5ths. He does not go in-depth into theory which is fine by me cuz i know one or two things about music theory. However this one has me stumped.

Here is the progression;

LH          RH

1) Bb     Ab, C, C#, F -C#maj7

2) EB     G, C, C#, F- (what??)

3) Ab     F#, Bb, B, Eb- (what??)

4) C#     F, Bb, B, Eb

I know what is going on in the left hand; each note is the 5th of the note after it. Its the right hand chords that get me. What chords is he trying to play?

Is there a theoretical explanation for this? Thanks so mcuh, God bless.

[T-Block]

By the way, this is using the Circle of 4ths, not 5ths.  It's using the Circle of 5ths in reverse.  So, to answer your question:

Here is the progression;

LH          RH

1) Bb     Ab, C, C#, F -C#maj7

2) EB     G, C, C#, F- (what??)

3) Ab     F#, Bb, B, Eb- (what??)

4) C#     F, Bb, B, Eb

Here is where you getting in trouble, u keep mixing #'s and b's.  Either u in the key of C# or Db, so I'm going to do it in Db:

1) Bb / Ab-C-Db-F  *the basic idea here is a Db chord in the RH with a Bb in the LH, or a 1 chord wit a 6 in the bass

2) Eb / G-C-Db-F  *the basic idea here is an Eb dominant 9th chord split between both hands or a dominant 2 chord, it is acting as a secondary dominant to 5

Then 3 and 4 is the same thing u did above, just 1 whole step lower. 

Don't look at both hands separate all the time, look at them both as a whole to figure out what's going on.  Does that help?  I did a post on this very progression somewhere, it can go on forever.

[DaNatiMaestro]

Jamal is a great teacher!!

Here is an explanation of what he is doing with this exercise.

He is doing a series of 2-5 progressions around the cycle of 5th/4th (depending on how you look at it)

LH/RH  Number Note Breakdown    Slash Chord   Chord Name

Bb/AbCDbF 1/b7 9 b3 5  Dbmaj7/Bb  Bb min 9
Eb/GCDbF  1/3 13 b7 9   Not sure    Eb dom 13
Ab/GbBbBEb  1/b7 9 b3 5  Bmaj7/Ab Ab min 9
Db/FBbBEb  1/3 13 b7 9  Not sure    Db dom 13

This is a common way to voice 2-5 progressions in a jazzy way. On those minor 7th chords (ii chords), you add the 9.  On those dominant chords (V chords), you drop the 5th and add the 9th and the 13th to the 1, 3, b7.

[chevonee]

By the way, this is using the Circle of 4ths, not 5ths.  It's using the Circle of 5ths in reverse.  So, to answer your question:

Here is where you getting in trouble, u keep mixing #'s and b's.  Either u in the key of C# or Db, so I'm going to do it in Db:

1) Bb / Ab-C-Db-F  *the basic idea here is a Db chord in the RH with a Bb in the LH, or a 1 chord wit a 6 in the bass

2) Eb / G-C-Db-F  *the basic idea here is an Eb dominant 9th chord split between both hands or a dominant 2 chord, it is acting as a secondary dominant to 5

Then 3 and 4 is the same thing u did above, just 1 whole step lower. 

Don't look at both hands separate all the time, look at them both as a whole to figure out what's going on.  Does that help?  I did a post on this very progression somewhere, it can go on forever.

I would like for you to keep going T-block.  

[cas10a]

Look at the chords this way

1. Bb/Ab-C-Db-F (Chord = Bb-Db-F-Ab-C) = Bbm9
2. Eb/G-C-Db-F (Chord = Eb-G-Bb-C-Db-F) = Eb9/6 (the Bb is ommitted in his voicing...3rd and 5th optional)
3. Ab/Gb-Bb-B-Eb (Chord = Ab-B-Eb-Gb-Bb) = Abm9
4. Db/F-Bb-B-Eb (Chord = Db-F-Ab-Bb-Cb-Eb) = Db9/6 (same as Eb chord above)

Note chord pattern with Bass
1 = Bbm9
2 = Eb9/6
3 = Abm9
4 = Db9/6

I corrected the B above to Cb...see below...
The degrees on chord 2 and 4 above are 1-(3)-(5)-6-b7-9

[T-Block]

So Fenix, are you confused yet?  LOL, I'm just kidding, there are lots of ways given in this thread for you to look at that progression.  If you are still unclear about something, please tell us so that we can further help you.

[Fenix]

So Fenix, are you confused yet?  LOL, I'm just kidding, there are lots of ways given in this thread for you to look at that progression.  If you are still unclear about something, please tell us so that we can further help you.

As at this time i am really confused.    .

This is the same thing that happened with his teaching on tritones. He plays a tritone then adds a chord and doesn't say why he added that chord. 

Lemme clarify my thinking. The LH is playing some kind of 1-5 progression. The thing i don't get is the RH. It seems like a series of Maj7 chords that have been inverted and the reason i think so is cuz of the semitone between the 2nd and 3rd notes as i have written them, the 3rd note being the root of the chord. whenever i see a chord shape with some kind of semitone btw 2 adjacent notes, i immediately think "maj 7". Is this wrong?

So the way i see it is this; RH is playing a series of chords with a maj 7 and a maj7b5 (if there is such a  chord) after it. What i don't get is what is the order of chords? How do i know what chords i can play.

I suspect i am over-thinking this. Thanks for all the help guys.

[T-Block]

As at this time i am really confused.    .

This is the same thing that happened with his teaching on tritones. He plays a tritone then adds a chord and doesn't say why he added that chord. 

Lemme clarify my thinking. The LH is playing some kind of 1-5 progression. The thing i don't get is the RH. It seems like a series of Maj7 chords that have been inverted and the reason i think so is cuz of the semitone between the 2nd and 3rd notes as i have written them, the 3rd note being the root of the chord. whenever i see a chord shape with some kind of semitone btw 2 adjacent notes, i immediately think "maj 7". Is this wrong?

So the way i see it is this; RH is playing a series of chords with a maj 7 and a maj7b5 (if there is such a  chord) after it. What i don't get is what is the order of chords? How do i know what chords i can play.

I suspect i am over-thinking this. Thanks for all the help guys.

O.K., first off the LH is not moving in 5ths, it's moving in 4ths.  So, please get that straight, 4ths not 5ths.  A progression starts with the first note or chord being played then goes to the next.  I see 2 ways of looking at this particular progression:


Way #1

In theory format, the LH scale degrees are 6-2-5-1, so that's what progression you're playing.  Bass notes:

Key Db  LH

Bb (6)
Eb (2)
Ab (5)
Db (1)

As for the RH, basically you have a major 7th chord in 2nd inversion for the 1st chord, then you lower the 5th 1/2 step for the second chord.  Next, you take that first major 7th chord u played and lower every note 1 whole step, then repeat the process.  In theory format, you have a major 7th chord built off 1 and a major 7th chord built off the b7 scale degree.  Chords:

Key Db  RH

Ab-C-Db-F     *major 7th built off 1
G-C-Db-F       *lowered 5th of above chord
Gb-Bb-Cb-Eb  *major 7th built off b7
F-Bb-Cb-Eb    *lowered 5th of above chord


Way #2

In theory format, the LH scale degrees are 6-2, modulate down 1 whole step, then 6-2 again.  So that's what progression you're playing.  Bass notes:

Key Db  LH

Bb (6)
Eb (2)

Key Cb  LH

Ab (6)
Db (2)

As for the RH, basically you have a major 7th chord in 2nd inversion for the 1st chord, then you lower the 5th 1/2 step for the second chord.  Next, you take that first major 7th chord u played and lower every note 1 whole step, then repeat the process.  In theory format, you have a major 7th chord built off 1, then modulate down 1 whole step and a major 7th chord built off the 1st scale degree in that key.  Chords:

Key Db  RH

Ab-C-Db-F     *major 7th built off 1
G-C-Db-F       *lowered 5th of above chord

Key Cb  RH

Gb-Bb-Cb-Eb  *major 7th built off 1
F-Bb-Cb-Eb    *lowered 5th of above chord


Does that make it any clearer for you?

[jlewis]

Thats the great ( and confusing thing) about music. There are so many ways to look at it.


I'm a pretty simple guy so  I try to keep thing simple.   When I think progression,  I 'm (usually ) trying to resolve back to the one.  ( the one could be major or minor  depending on if its a major or minor song).

When I'm doing the circle,  I usually never resolve ( unless I go completely  around back to where I started).


So when I look at what Jamal is doing,  he is indeed moving in 4ths,  but he is doing it starting with a minor  instead of a major. 


T Block is right, he is starting out in the key of Db,   but he is  using the minor (1)  which would be Bbm.


The "method" to moving around (this paticular circle using jamal's method) is  always  Minor9 --> Major6/9

so it looks something like this


Starting  on Bb (which  if you were in the key of Db, woul be a minor chord)

                             

Note                Minor 9                    Dominant7(6/9)
Bb                    Bbm9

Eb                                                   Eb7(6/9)

Ab                     Abm9

Db                                                   Db7(6/9)

Gb                      Gbm9

B                                                      B7(6/9)

E                         Em9

A                                                     A7(6/9)

D                        Dm9

G                                                    G7(6/9)

C                         Cm9


F                                                     F7(6/9)


Bb                        Bbm9  ( which is where you started in the first at the beginning of the circle)



Now if this where a real progression it would be tied to a key ( in my opinion)  but since we are moving around the  circle,   I didn't try to tie the next note to the current key that I am in.

what you have to do now is know what notes make up a minor 9 chord and waht notes make up a dominant7(add 6 add 9) chord .

Dominant7(6/9)   could also be thought of as a 13th with no 11,  or a dominant9 add6, or  whatever other crazy name we can come up with.

The key is that the theory and movement around the circle is always the same.


I hope this simplifies things out for you.


Jlewis
 

[jlewis]

Cas10   really explained this  already,   the difference is that he didn't go all the way around the circle ( like I did).   Neither did jamal.    Jamal probably used a small portion of the circle as part of his progression ( within a song).   Which is where T-Block is getting the 6-2-5-1 progression from.



So really we are all still stating the same thing, just in different ways.    Isn't music great like that!!!!!


Jlewis

[Fenix]

Your explanation was great. I am at work right now so i will need to go back home and sit down to really think about this.

I am still confused. If you take a look at my very first post, you can see the chords. I'll write up the first two;


LH          RH

1) Bb     Ab, C, C#, F -C#maj7

2) Eb     G, C, C#, F- (what??)

3) Ab     F#, Bb, B, Eb- (what??)

4) C#     F, Bb, B, Eb

I can see that in the first chord is a Bbm9 inversion but the root is not played on the right hand. I wouldn't have a problem with the second chord being an Eb7 but what is that C doing there?

I guess what i can just do is play in 4ths on the right and go with the formula of m9, dom7, m9, dom7 in fourths.

[cas10a]

Your explanation was great. I am at work right now so i will need to go back home and sit down to really think about this.

I am still confused. If you take a look at my very first post, you can see the chords. I'll write up the first two;


LH          RH

1) Bb     Ab, C, C#, F -C#maj7

2) Eb     G, C, C#, F- (what??)

3) Ab     F#, Bb, B, Eb- (what??)

4) C#     F, Bb, B, Eb

I can see that in the first chord is a Bbm9 inversion but the root is not played on the right hand. I wouldn't have a problem with the second chord being an Eb7 but what is that C doing there?

I guess what i can just do is play in 4ths on the right and go with the formula of m9, dom7, m9, dom7 in fourths.

This is why it is sometimes good to look at the bass as part of the chord...although above it explained both ways

1.  Bb / Ab-C-Db-F (root-together with Bass = Bb-Db-F-Ab-C = Bbm9) or (Bb / RH Chord = DbMaj7)
2.  Eb / G-C-Db-F (root-w/B = Eb-(G)-(Bb)-C-Db-F; Note (3rd) and (5th) are optional = Eb6/9) or (Eb / RH = DbMaj7-5)
3.  Ab / Gb-Bb-B-Eb (root-w/B = Ab-B-Eb-Gb-Bb = Abm9) or (Ab/ RH Chord = BMaj7)
4.  Db/F-Bb-B-Eb (root-w/B = Db-(F)-(Ab)-Bb-Cb-Eb; (3rd) and (5th) optional = Db6/9) or (Db / RH = BMaj7-5)

Note the Patterns...explained both ways

Including Bass
1. Bbm9
2. Eb6/9
3. Abm9
4. Db6/9

or

1. Bb/DbMaj7
2. Eb/DbMaj7-5
3. Ab/BMaj7
4. Db/BMaj7-5


 

[jlewis]

Your explanation was great. I am at work right now so i will need to go back home and sit down to really think about this.

I am still confused. If you take a look at my very first post, you can see the chords. I'll write up the first two;


LH          RH

1) Bb     Ab, C, C#, F -C#maj7

2) Eb     G, C, C#, F- (what??)

3) Ab     F#, Bb, B, Eb- (what??)

4) C#     F, Bb, B, Eb

I can see that in the first chord is a Bbm9 inversion but the root is not played on the right hand. I wouldn't have a problem with the second chord being an Eb7 but what is that C doing there?

I guess what i can just do is play in 4ths on the right and go with the formula of m9, dom7, m9, dom7 in fourths.

Remember, I said the formula was minor 9  dom7(6/9)

so in the key  of Eb   ( 1=Eb   2=F 3=G 4=Ab 5=Bb 6=C 7=D)  so an Eb7(6/9)   would be composed of Db(dominant7), Eb(root), F(the "9" in 6/9  or also known as the 2), Bb(the 5), and C (the 6).

The way Jamal composed the chord, he played the root in his left hand (Eb)

then he started the chord in the 2nd inversion (meaning the G would be the bottom note  in his right hand, followed by the C, which is the 6, followed by the Dom7 which is Db {or C# in your notation},  then he left out the Eb because he is playing it in his left hand,  and then comes the F which is the 9 {also known as the 2} )

Does this makes since to you?


Remember, there are tons of ways to walk the circle, and jamal's way of starting with a minor and then doing  minor9 followed by dom7(6/9)  is just one way.

Jlewis

[jlewis]

oh and to answer your question, you could certainly just do a minor9 followed by a dom7 and repeat.

The difference is that the 6/9 chord adds more color to the chord.  What these folks around these parts call (phatness).    Basically you just need to expand your chord vocabulary and master the inversion.


And again cas10 is right,   sometimes its better to look at both hands as composing "1 chord"  but again, this is music and the rules aren't always hard an fast.

Jlewis