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Author Topic: Sequencers during live recordings  (Read 3571 times)

Ramar

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Sequencers during live recordings
« on: August 16, 2007, 07:56:46 PM »
I am 100% convinced that midi sequencers are used in the live recordings of many of todays gospel albums. I know that practice is essential, however, I believe there is more involved ... I was watching a video of a gospel artist and I noticed several things that led me to come to this conclusion:

1) Seeing that MPC Drum Machines are common in gospel music to provide additional percussion and to keep timing, it only makes since that midi sequencers(not those cheap computer based GM sequencers, I'm talking about motifs, fantoms, etc.) would be used to help timing for all those musicians especially during songs with change ups ---Good examples of songs that use drum machines: The best is yet to come by Donald Lawrence, Balm in Gilead by Karen Clark-Sheard

2)Sequencers are very common in live secular music performances. about 85% of the live performances of artists such as Britney, Madonna, have sequenced parts playing in sync with the live musicians. If you don't believe me go to www.rolandus.com or www.korg.com and read some of the articles and interviews with secular musicians and find out how roland, korg, and other keyboard workstations are being used.

3)If you watch the musicians perform on TV or on video, you will see that they are not reading music- Try playing Tye Tribbett's songs like Everything will be alright, Still Have Joy, and pretty much every single song exactly the same way consecutively one after another without messing up one time-- without the help of written music.. I've been to his live performances and when I say EVERYTHING sounds EXACTLY the same as on the CD i mean EVERYTHING from the piano to the drums--every break, every fill, everything. That, to me, is simply too much to remember even after much practice. So it only makes since that there is a sequencer keeping timing and playing additional parts and backing phrases.

4)Its no secret that "overdubs" are often added to the live recording. These overdubs are usually recorded in the studio days after the live recording was made. They can be anything from a guitar to cymbals and hi hats being hit later to improve the sound. Overdubs have been used for years so it would make sense that as sequencer capabilities improve the "overdubs" would be played by sequencers set up on stage. These sequences would act as backing phrases or auto-accompaniment to the live musicians.

5) I have noticed in several gospel videos that artists can be seen looking at computers and keyboard players having sound modules (like the Triton Rack, for example) and drum machines by their sides. The computer can act as a sequencer to control the timing of the performance and keep the music intact.

6) I was listening to Tye Tribbett's CD and noticed that most of the songs are nearly impossible to play without a band, the bass player has his own part, the organist his, the horns have their own part, the keyboard player has his... although it is possible for each player to have learned and practiced his or her part over several months, there would still need to be some sort of "gel" to hold these artists together in perfect timing and harmony without reading music. To do that many songs live with every single change up, fill, break, (and there were plenty!!!) without sheet music had to require either ULTRA-EXTREME practice or a good sequencer to keep them in sync. The same holds true for Israel houghton, Martha Munizzi, and all these other new age gospel artists!!!

I had a few other points to bring up, but I forgot them.... sorry!!! :(

But thats just me and my opinion.... feel free to give me yours!!! If I forgot any key points, or if I sound down-right ridiculous, If you agree or disagree-- Give me your thoughts!!!

God Bless You!!!

Offline T-Block

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2007, 02:35:37 PM »
Well, I don't really care how it's produced, as long as it sounds good.  I don't care if they got 2,000 pieces of equipment present, it works for them and it sounds good.
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Offline Lildrummaboy66

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2007, 10:44:33 PM »
t-block i agree,  as long as it sounds good i really dont mind what they use, but at the same time,  ramar i agree with your comments. it does seem like they are "cheating" when they use these seqencers, especially live. every sunday i play i rely on counting and not a sequencer or a metronome and if your choir attempts to replicate any of their songs.......you need Jesus himself to come to your choir rehearsal and lay hands on you so you can play it....lol

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Offline The Dojz

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2007, 04:29:49 PM »
Very interesting.  I think you gave me something to research on.
Thank you and may God bless you,
   The Dojz

Offline bluemagic

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2007, 11:32:54 AM »
Kind of makes you realize just how good and dedicated those MOTOWN musicians (and I mean MUSICIANS!!!) were back in the 60s when there were no sequencers, drum machines, or other electronics "enhancements".  These guys, James Jamerson, Earl Van Dyke, Uriel Jones, Joe Messina, and all the other "Funk Brothers" often backed up the Temptations, Supremes, Miracles, Vandellas, Marvelettes, Four Tops, and others during the same live Motown Saturday afternoon concert, which, by the way, you could (and I did) attend for about 5 bucks.

Of course, that was back in the day when many artists realized that in "M-U-S-I-C" the "US" (as in we, the group, the band) always comes before the "I" (as in me, me, me)!!!.

Offline BigFoot_BigThumb

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2007, 06:31:12 PM »
Here's a perfect example.  Even though there is a full band, they still got a sequence going with it.

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Ramar

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2007, 08:57:24 PM »
Here's a perfect example.  Even though there is a full band, they still got a sequence going with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_jPIyY_t54


Thank you for proving my point... I am not condemning the use of sequencers, but I am merely exposing the fact that everything we hear isn't made the way that we think it is. Like T-Block said, it sounds great... but technology plays a bigger part than we think... It's 2007, and a lot of our music isn't created the same way it was a few years ago. A majority of the "live" recordings we hear today aren't 100% live

Offline BigFoot_BigThumb

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2007, 10:29:42 PM »
Thank you for proving my point... I am not condemning the use of sequencers, but I am merely exposing the fact that everything we hear isn't made the way that we think it is. Like T-Block said, it sounds great... but technology plays a bigger part than we think... It's 2007, and a lot of our music isn't created the same way it was a few years ago. A majority of the "live" recordings we hear today aren't 100% live



The main reason this is done today is that the general public that comes to these shows in this day and age do not appreciate real musicians and real vocals.  They want to hear the same things they hear on the CD.  Many artists give in to that ideal and go for what pleases the crowd.  Also many acts that have dancing vocalists also use the so they will not sound "shaky with all of the jumping around they have to do while they sing.

Here's a good example of this.  I hope this clip is not inappropriate.  It's so obvious at the beginning that it's all tape.  But I think a live lead vocal comes on the second verse.  I do love this live version though because he band is KICKIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

   
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Offline Metronome

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 09:38:51 AM »
A lot of bands do use the sequencers. I know I've been at sound checks for some artists and even though some stuff is programmed you can't really diminish their skills.  I was at a tye concert and I kinda disagree on one small part............his live shows are nothing like the cd! Their are so many different things they do live thats aren't on the cd.  They mostly only program like synth stuff and loops because they came to "lil ol syracuse" with the whole brass section, bass, drums a keyboardist with a 3-4 board set up and a lead guitarist.  So i do agree in sayin that sequencers have changed the game but to say that they are cheating is a lil harsh..............I GUARANTEE you that if Motown would have had the stuff we had they'd be usin it just like us.
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Offline jazzy4reall

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2007, 07:22:41 PM »
I'm new to posting, but I agree with Metronome.....Sequencers are just an advantage we have today, if Earl Van Dyke and those guys had 1680's and MPC's they would use it...I guarantee.....

Like in one instance is my former church where it was just Organ, Drums and Bass......I would pre-produce everything for a months worth of music for the choir using my motif, triton and a guitar player.....

So at choir rehearsal  you heard strings, lead part, orch hits, stabs, distorted guitar and everything else we didnt had.....So in this form its an enhancement....because i didnt track a Organ, bass, or drum part.....

My bassist played synth bass, electric and even acoustic (we never needed it for church), and I always played organ...but my organ was a bx3 so i had it linked to a korg Trinity..(please dont sleep on those)....

I sequenced on a Akai DPS 12.....so everything else was on there....so when you talk about songs like Donald Lawrences Blessing of Abraham, Tye's I will bless the Lord, and Marvin Sapp's One Thing.....those are phat orchestrated parts....so a three piece wouldn't do it Justice....

Plus, my last point....God expects excellence in worship not distractions....and alot of times the sequencer just helps with professionalism in production......for anyone who doesn't think all the Pro's use tracks, you just dont know...I live in Nasville, where every record is sent regardless of who it is...Most mastering engineers require you to use tracks so when they go back to overdub and mix..they can cut even parts out of the song......

so sequencers are a good thing if used right...

Ramar

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2007, 10:41:55 PM »
I'm new to posting, but I agree with Metronome.....Sequencers are just an advantage we have today, if Earl Van Dyke and those guys had 1680's and MPC's they would use it...I guarantee.....

Like in one instance is my former church where it was just Organ, Drums and Bass......I would pre-produce everything for a months worth of music for the choir using my motif, triton and a guitar player.....

So at choir rehearsal  you heard strings, lead part, orch hits, stabs, distorted guitar and everything else we didnt had.....So in this form its an enhancement....because i didnt track a Organ, bass, or drum part.....

My bassist played synth bass, electric and even acoustic (we never needed it for church), and I always played organ...but my organ was a bx3 so i had it linked to a korg Trinity..(please dont sleep on those)....

I sequenced on a Akai DPS 12.....so everything else was on there....so when you talk about songs like Donald Lawrences Blessing of Abraham, Tye's I will bless the Lord, and Marvin Sapp's One Thing.....those are phat orchestrated parts....so a three piece wouldn't do it Justice....

Plus, my last point....God expects excellence in worship not distractions....and alot of times the sequencer just helps with professionalism in production......for anyone who doesn't think all the Pro's use tracks, you just dont know...I live in Nasville, where every record is sent regardless of who it is...Most mastering engineers require you to use tracks so when they go back to overdub and mix..they can cut even parts out of the song......

so sequencers are a good thing if used right...

I understand where you are coming from... and I agree that the music does sound good with a sequencer.... But there are some people who are busting their butts trying to learn how to play these difficult songs, and they don't realize that some parts are pre-produced... like you said, there are extra synth lines and chords that thicken up the music to the point where for some people, it is hard to play correctly...

I've heard some of the best musicians trying to play tye's stuff and it sounded very little like the song because they can't play all the parts at the same time

Offline Metronome

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2007, 07:09:46 AM »
But like he said.........................ONE musician cant play tyes stuff.......................impossible.  Tye has a full band................FULL.  They are as tight of a band as you wil find in gospel.  And for those fancy chords that you hear on the cd...............OVERDUB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats why they sound so fat and thick.  Honestly.........on Victory, I didn't hear anything too hard.  I mean if I had a ful brass section, bass, lead, oragn, piano, and keyboards the song would have a lot of stuff in it too
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Offline bluemagic

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2007, 08:03:55 AM »
AMEN to that, brotha!!!  MOTOWN had "the whole Funk Bros. band" PLUS the Detroit Symphony Orchestra providing the "strings".  For example, check out the "strings" on the Temptations "Gettin' Ready".  I am not saying that MOTOWN wouldn't use sequencers and such today but it is incredible what they were able to do musically 'back in the day' without any of the modern digital electronics.  If you ever get to Detroit check out the Motown Museum on W. Grand Blvd and go down to the Snake Pit (i.e., Studio A) and checkout the ANALOG Gear they used that's on display as well as Earl's B3.  They'll also explain to you how Berry got Reverb Effects without using electronics.

Ramar

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2007, 08:55:16 AM »
But like he said.........................ONE musician cant play tyes stuff.......................impossible.  Tye has a full band................FULL.  They are as tight of a band as you wil find in gospel.  And for those fancy chords that you hear on the cd...............OVERDUB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats why they sound so fat and thick.  Honestly.........on Victory, I didn't hear anything too hard.  I mean if I had a ful brass section, bass, lead, organ, piano, and keyboards the song would have a lot of stuff in it too

Yeah victory isn't difficult to play at all.... but most of the other songs are impossible to play without a band. if you look throughout these forums you will find that alot of the musicians on this site play alone and not with a band. 

I'm new to posting, but I agree with Metronome.....Sequencers are just an advantage we have today, if Earl Van Dyke and those guys had 1680's and MPC's they would use it...I guarantee.....

Like in one instance is my former church where it was just Organ, Drums and Bass......I would pre-produce everything for a months worth of music for the choir using my motif, triton and a guitar player.....

So at choir rehearsal  you heard strings, lead part, orch hits, stabs, distorted guitar and everything else we didnt had.....So in this form its an enhancement....because i didnt track a Organ, bass, or drum part.....

My bassist played synth bass, electric and even acoustic (we never needed it for church), and I always played organ...but my organ was a bx3 so i had it linked to a korg Trinity..(please dont sleep on those)....

I sequenced on a Akai DPS 12.....so everything else was on there....so when you talk about songs like Donald Lawrences Blessing of Abraham, Tye's I will bless the Lord, and Marvin Sapp's One Thing.....those are phat orchestrated parts....so a three piece wouldn't do it Justice....

Plus, my last point....God expects excellence in worship not distractions....and alot of times the sequencer just helps with professionalism in production......for anyone who doesn't think all the Pro's use tracks, you just dont know...I live in Nasville, where every record is sent regardless of who it is...Most mastering engineers require you to use tracks so when they go back to overdub and mix..they can cut even parts out of the song......

so sequencers are a good thing if used right...

I got a few questions for you...

1)How do you sequence the music... Do you sequence all the instruments including the bass and drums or do you just sequence synths, horns, and strings?

2)And is it hard for all the musicians to stay synchronized and on beat?

3)And oh yea, is the whole song already pre-produced.... like if the choir were to keep on singing beyond your sequence (like repeating the vamp over and over).. does your sequence run out or is it looped?

I would consider using a sequencer but I don't wanna throw everyone off...(It's kinda like singing to a CD)

Offline Metronome

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2007, 09:09:00 AM »
Yeah victory isn't difficult to play at all.... but most of the other songs are impossible to play without a band. if you look throughout these forums you will find that alot of the musicians on this site play alone and not with a band. 

I was speaking of the Whole cd, not the song sorry for the misunderstanding...........The only thing I can say is that not every song is for everybody. If you are playing by yourself then why would you even attempt to play a song with that many parts................

In my circles..the sequencer is more of a time keeper.  In may I played on a live recording with a choir.  Organ (me), bass, piano, drums, and keyboards.  We used an MPC for the click tracks.  When we go into the studio for overdubs thats when all of the layer come in to play.  like I said its kinda hard to judge whether or not a recording has sequenced parts because a lot of the "hot" stuff you hear is overdubs
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Offline 3rd-Day

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2007, 02:47:59 PM »
I'm new to posting, but I agree with Metronome.....Sequencers are just an advantage we have today, if Earl Van Dyke and those guys had 1680's and MPC's they would use it...I guarantee.....

Like in one instance is my former church where it was just Organ, Drums and Bass......I would pre-produce everything for a months worth of music for the choir using my motif, triton and a guitar player.....

So at choir rehearsal  you heard strings, lead part, orch hits, stabs, distorted guitar and everything else we didnt had.....So in this form its an enhancement....because i didnt track a Organ, bass, or drum part.....

My bassist played synth bass, electric and even acoustic (we never needed it for church), and I always played organ...but my organ was a bx3 so i had it linked to a korg Trinity..(please dont sleep on those)....

I sequenced on a Akai DPS 12.....so everything else was on there....so when you talk about songs like Donald Lawrences Blessing of Abraham, Tye's I will bless the Lord, and Marvin Sapp's One Thing.....those are phat orchestrated parts....so a three piece wouldn't do it Justice....

Plus, my last point....God expects excellence in worship not distractions....and alot of times the sequencer just helps with professionalism in production......for anyone who doesn't think all the Pro's use tracks, you just dont know...I live in Nasville, where every record is sent regardless of who it is...Most mastering engineers require you to use tracks so when they go back to overdub and mix..they can cut even parts out of the song......

so sequencers are a good thing if used right...
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Ramar

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2007, 04:32:00 PM »
I was speaking of the Whole cd, not the song sorry for the misunderstanding...........The only thing I can say is that not every song is for everybody. If you are playing by yourself then why would you even attempt to play a song with that many parts................

In my circles..the sequencer is more of a time keeper.  In may I played on a live recording with a choir.  Organ (me), bass, piano, drums, and keyboards.  We used an MPC for the click tracks.  When we go into the studio for overdubs thats when all of the layer come in to play.  like I said its kinda hard to judge whether or not a recording has sequenced parts because a lot of the "hot" stuff you hear is overdubs
I was speaking of the Whole cd, not the song sorry for the misunderstanding...........The only thing I can say is that not every song is for everybody. If you are playing by yourself then why would you even attempt to play a song with that many parts................

In my circles..the sequencer is more of a time keeper.  In may I played on a live recording with a choir.  Organ (me), bass, piano, drums, and keyboards.  We used an MPC for the click tracks.  When we go into the studio for overdubs thats when all of the layer come in to play.  like I said its kinda hard to judge whether or not a recording has sequenced parts because a lot of the "hot" stuff you hear is overdubs

You must be the choir director and the minister of music, correct? If you already prepared the repertoire beforehand then you must be in control of the choir to some extent, correct?

At my church, I'm just the musician... I don't pick the songs... I just play them when they are given to me... my choir director wants to do "everything will be alright"... but that song has too many change ups and things...

when I play I have to watch the choir director... she tells the musicians and the choir when to break and how many times to repeat the chorus, vamp, etc... but if the music is already sequenced beforehand then the choir follows you, right?

Ramar

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2007, 04:38:08 PM »
I'm just curious because I have the Trinity and the Fantom... And I'm considering sequencing music but I don't know how to incorporate it in my live music... I have a studio and I produce and record music in the studio but I've never blended a sequence with live instruments....

I don't know if I should start another thread or not... but if anyone could help me, I'd greatly appreciate it.



Offline Metronome

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2007, 04:44:18 PM »
To a certain extent, yes.  I dont have a title but I am in charge of the musicians.  I have a great say in what songs the choir sings. Put it like this...........if you wann play tye stuff...........then you are gonna have to do what the rest of the world probably does....make do.  The changes in the song are fairly easy (as are most of his stuff) they are just placed wierd.  I've played that whole song with an organ and some lil Korg.  Pad on bottom.  Then I played Flute for the beginning and synth brass at the very end.  Its possible.  Just gotta work at it
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Offline Keys410

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Re: Sequencers during live recordings
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2007, 05:55:21 PM »
I know that most use what we call click tracks and things such as the MPC to keep timing. I won't take it as far as to say that they midi the chords on the board. One thing we have to remember is these are anointed cats that are musicians full time. Soundcheck for example practice and I mean they really practice. I heard them rehearsing music and them dudes can switch keys like it's nothing and groove off of what they hear. If you give these cats 12 months to prepared for a live recording they are going to have it down pack. Just my 2 cents.
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