Are you legally singing gospel music in your church?

[jlewis]

Guys our opinion has nothing to do with the LAW.

I don't like to pay taxes but I do... Why? BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW!

It's not a law that you have to have CCLI... The law does say that we have to have the author's permission to print up, store etc... songs that the author has copyrights for.

So you have two LEGAL choices...

1. Contact each and every songwriter and get their permission to pass out their lyrics and show their lyrics and sing their songs in concerts...

or

2. Get CCLI which is the best system going to protect yourself and your church from breaking copyright laws...

It's really that simple.

I don't think it's illegal to post lyrics on the internet because if that was the case all of those lyrics websites would be shut down and those website owners would be facing lawsuits...


MrSparrow

I don't have a problem with the legality.   My problem is that it seems like CCLI is being pushed as the way to make it OK to project lyrics, but based on my on personal  observations, CCLI doesn't even cover most of the people  that (lets just put it out there, Black Gospel) based music ministries use.  So while I agree that CCLI is useful,  if you are going by a strictly legal basis, you can purchase a CCLI license, and still not be legal  in your paticular church.

Does that make sense to you?


Jlewis

[MrSparrow]

I understand... give me some examples...

Who are you talking about?

Name some songs that you don' t think are on there...

If they aren't covered then call CCLI and ask them why those songs aren't covered and hold them responsible to keep you happy as THEIR customer.

Once again, it all boils down to the black gospel publishers...

ALL of Integrity's music is on there... now Tyscot or Zomba? I don't know...

MrSparrow

[jlewis]

The last time I checked

BMI music  who licenses Kirk franklin, yolanda Adams, Fred Hammond, Bebe and Cece, etc etc

Were not covered publishers of CCLi nor were they covered under the Authorized catalog.


This may have changed recently as I have not checked in a while.

Also, as artists change label,   they also change publisher as well.   So you might get selected songs of lets say  Alvin Slaughter,  but you won't get his entire  song history.


Not trying to say folks shouldn't get CCLi,   I just don't want them to believe that once they have it, they are good for any artist under the sun.


Jlewis.

[KurzLand]

1. Contact each and every songwriter and get their permission to pass out their lyrics and show their lyrics and sing their songs in concerts...

It's really that simple.

No, it's not simple.
Do you know how many songwriters there are?
I don't, but if you add the Hispanic, white, and black songwriters I am sure there will be a whole bunch.
Most churches sing songs from all of these races, like we do in the church I go to.

[MrSparrow]

The last time I checked

BMI music  who licenses Kirk franklin, yolanda Adams, Fred Hammond, Bebe and Cece, etc etc

Were not covered publishers of CCLi nor were they covered under the Authorized catalog.


This may have changed recently as I have not checked in a while.

Also, as artists change label,   they also change publisher as well.   So you might get selected songs of lets say  Alvin Slaughter,  but you won't get his entire  song history.


Not trying to say folks shouldn't get CCLi,   I just don't want them to believe that once they have it, they are good for any artist under the sun.


Jlewis.

Man... I just got off the site and all 95 songs Kirk Franklin wrote are covered by CCLI and all 198 songs Fred Hammond recorded are on there also. They update CCLI daily. Once again if songs aren't covered make your complaints known...

MrSparrow

[pianofingers21]

In my opinion it sounds like Mr. Sparrow is merely spamming this site on behalf of CCLI.

Okay. So my Uncle is a lawyer, and I had him do some research on this as he is a member of our church as well. 

1. Just for background information. The Gaithers (some of you may know them) are the ones who got all this CRAZINESS started when they stopped at a church one Sunday morning, and the choir happened to sing one of their songs.  Merely singing the song wasn't the problem, the problem was that they had copied the lyrics sheet and projected it onto the wall.   THAT violated the copyright law.

So.

YOU NEED CCLI IF:
1. You project your songs/visuals onto the wall.
2. You make copies of lead sheets for musicians/praise singers etc.
3. You sing the song and record it.
4. Distribute recordings of your services.

But actually, having the CCLI license still does not allow you to record/distribute any of your services. Not just singing, but say you have 2 songs on it before an hour of preaching.. you still can't sell that tape/cd because the songs are on there. And if you dont have permission from the actual SONGWRITER you are violating copyright law.

YOU DO NOT NEED CCLI IF:
1. You sing songs out of a songbook (as the book itself is already copywrited and permissioned accordingly)
2. You sing songs w/out projecting words onto the wall. (falls under freedom of speech/expression etc as well not to mention freedom of religion )
3. You retype the words to a song on plain paper, and THEN distribute it to your choir as lyrics.


SO.
In conclusion.. Do we need CCLI?

In most cases its pointless. You would have to get permission from nearly every songwriter/artist you use. And then you STILL wouldnt be able to tape any of your services.  If you're not making money off your 'performance' you dont need CCLI.... You can't tell me the artists haven't already made their money off of their cd's, performances, and other ways. By singing a song in church I am in no way effecting that person.  And if I'm wrong, I pray that God convict me, and I'll change my view.

So Mr. Sparrows comments about following the law and such.. there are too many loopholes in these copywright 'laws'  that if your church should ever need legal defense it wouldn't be hard.

A point my uncle made, you know how in school when you write a report you have to cite your sources? Well thats because you've published something.. which is copying someones work without permission. However. You can stand in the front of the whole world, and say that same quote live, and it means nothing. This applies to singing as well.  Dont be afraid to worship because someone wants to charge your church a fee to do so.. this is ridiculous.   

IF GOD BE FOR US, WHO IN THE WORLD CAN BE AGAINST US??   

[diverse379]

Amen!

[sjonathan02]

In my opinion it sounds like Mr. Sparrow is merely spamming this site on behalf of CCLI.

Okay. So my Uncle is a lawyer, and I had him do some research on this as he is a member of our church as well. 

1. Just for background information. The Gaithers (some of you may know them) are the ones who got all this CRAZINESS started when they stopped at a church one Sunday morning, and the choir happened to sing one of their songs.  Merely singing the song wasn't the problem, the problem was that they had copied the lyrics sheet and projected it onto the wall.   THAT violated the copyright law.

So.

YOU NEED CCLI IF:
1. You project your songs/visuals onto the wall.
2. You make copies of lead sheets for musicians/praise singers etc.
3. You sing the song and record it.
4. Distribute recordings of your services.

But actually, having the CCLI license still does not allow you to record/distribute any of your services. Not just singing, but say you have 2 songs on it before an hour of preaching.. you still can't sell that tape/cd because the songs are on there. And if you dont have permission from the actual SONGWRITER you are violating copyright law.

YOU DO NOT NEED CCLI IF:
1. You sing songs out of a songbook (as the book itself is already copywrited and permissioned accordingly)
2. You sing songs w/out projecting words onto the wall. (falls under freedom of speech/expression etc as well not to mention freedom of religion )
3. You retype the words to a song on plain paper, and THEN distribute it to your choir as lyrics.


SO.
In conclusion.. Do we need CCLI?

In most cases its pointless. You would have to get permission from nearly every songwriter/artist you use. And then you STILL wouldnt be able to tape any of your services.  If you're not making money off your 'performance' you dont need CCLI.... You can't tell me the artists haven't already made their money off of their cd's, performances, and other ways. By singing a song in church I am in no way effecting that person.  And if I'm wrong, I pray that God convict me, and I'll change my view.

So Mr. Sparrows comments about following the law and such.. there are too many loopholes in these copywright 'laws'  that if your church should ever need legal defense it wouldn't be hard.

A point my uncle made, you know how in school when you write a report you have to cite your sources? Well thats because you've published something.. which is copying someones work without permission. However. You can stand in the front of the whole world, and say that same quote live, and it means nothing. This applies to singing as well.  Dont be afraid to worship because someone wants to charge your church a fee to do so.. this is ridiculous.   

IF GOD BE FOR US, WHO IN THE WORLD CAN BE AGAINST US??   

I'll also add my 'Amen' to that and add that my MOM, who is a recording artist, told me that he's NEVER heard of anyone, especially in the Black church (going back to 4HG's point), using CCLI. He basically said it's just not that big of a deal.

Thanks for the insight, PF21!! 

[MrSparrow]

Ok, First off... I'm not spamming CCLI.

I'm going to have to check with Princess of Praise to see why the church she referenced was fined $300,000 for copywright infringements. Maybe her friend's church should have hired your uncle.

There are such things as performance royalties. Christian artists are not exempt. CCLI is attempting to fix that issue. For far too long christian artists and songwriters have been denied the access to the money that should belong to them.

If you wrote music and the mere fact that every church sings it is payment enough for you then God bless you!

These artists have needs also. I think we need balance when we look at things. We don't need to just look at our side (the church musician, minister of music) but look at their side.

There is a middle ground and currently and legally if you fall in the catagories that most of our churches with projectors fall in, we must cover ourselves.

MrSparrow

[sjonathan02]

Ok, First off... I'm not spamming CCLI.

I'm going to have to check with Princess of Praise to see why the church she referenced was fined $300,000 for copywright infringements. Maybe her friend's church should have hired your uncle.

There are such things as performance royalties. Christian artists are not exempt. CCLI is attempting to fix that issue. For far too long christian artists and songwriters have been denied the access to the money that should belong to them.

If you wrote music and the mere fact that every church sings it is payment enough for you then God bless you!

These artists have needs also. I think we need balance when we look at things. We don't need to just look at our side (the church musician, minister of music) but look at their side.

There is a middle ground and currently and legally if you fall in the catagories that most of our churches with projectors fall in, we must cover ourselves.

MrSparrow

I may have to disagree with your last two statements. Again, my MOM IS a recording artist, so when he says that it's not a big issue, I'm going to have to go with him. 

But, I understand and respect what you're trying to do, Bro. Sparrow. 

[MrSparrow]

You disagree that we should cover ourselves?

I'm sure if you asked Paul Baloche (Above All, Open the Eyes of My Heart Lord etc...) or Matt Redman (How Great is Our God) whether they want that check from CCLI or not, I'm sure they would say show me the money...

Is the music that your M.O.M records listed on CCLI? I doubt it, you don't miss what you never had. I'm sure if he was getting a little royalty check in the mail he would change his position as a songwriter...

As long as you understand that I'm just trying to look out for ALL of US...

MrSparrow

[sjonathan02]

You disagree that we should cover ourselves?

I'm sure if you asked Paul Baloche (Above All, Open the Eyes of My Heart Lord etc...) or Matt Redman (How Great is Our God) whether they want that check from CCLI or not, I'm sure they would say show me the money...

Is the music that your M.O.M records listed on CCLI? I doubt it, you don't miss what you never had. I'm sure if he was getting a little royalty check in the mail he would change his position as a songwriter...

As long as you understand that I'm just trying to look out for ALL of US...

MrSparrow

First, you're correct. You DON'T miss what you've never had.

Second, you're incorrect, I believe my MOM is listed on CCLI. If not, he IS receiving royalty checks. (when gave a little praise dance when he mentioned it.  )

So, again, I understand and can appreciate the sentiment; but.........

[Ladyn]

Ok I have read this entire post, and I am really not understanding the necessity of  ccli.  My church pays for this as well, and we are not even singing many of those songs. 

Now do I understnand correctly that even if I bought the cd with the lyrics printed in it, and I typed it up and gave it to my praise and worship team that it's illegal if you don't have a licence?

If you buy the songbook, and you play and sing from it, do you still need to pay ccli?

Singing the song with the lyrics displayed is illegal?  Why is displaying the lyrics for everyone to clearly see illegal? If I  sing the song and they learn that way they can write the words down and have them.  What is the difference?

I can't see the logic of such a law.  I also came accross a website a while back that was being sued. I will look and see if I can find it again.  They had a disclaimer up stating that most of their posts could no longer contain lyrics, while other songs had to be completely removed. 

I guess I really don't get the point of paying just to "keep someone from suing us".  How are we as musicians stealing if we are not recording and selling the music for a profit?  Most people I know want to know what cd I got the song from so they can go and purchase their own.  My church records entire services for our shut ins or people that are unable to be at a particular service, but we don't make a profit on the tapes.  We only charge the amount that the blank tape costs. 


Where does ministry fit into all of this? I mean these songs are for the body of Christ to uplift and encourage and strengthen them, then why do all of this unneccessary rat killing, trying to control how music is handled?  I think this is really another way to make money, but as long as it is the law my church will pay.  And because we do pay I think that we have the right to question the validity of such a law, and to really have a thoughtful and intellegent debate about the very idea of paying for a license.  I think that anyone that is trying to do what is right in God's sight will question the validity of this law and its application to their church setting. 

I still think it is just absolutely absurd!!!! JMHO. 

[sjonathan02]

Ok I have read this entire post, and I am really not understanding the necessity of  ccli.  My church pays for this as well, and we are not even singing many of those songs. 

Now do I understnand correctly that even if I bought the cd with the lyrics printed in it, and I typed it up and gave it to my praise and worship team that it's illegal if you don't have a licence?

No, it's legal.

If you buy the songbook, and you play and sing from it, do you still need to pay ccli? No.

Singing the song with the lyrics displayed is illegal?  According to CCLIWhy is displaying the lyrics for everyone to clearly see illegal? Ask CCLIIf I  sing the song and they learn that way they can write the words down and have them.  What is the difference? Good question

I can't see the logic of such a law.  I also came accross a website a while back that was being sued. I will look and see if I can find it again.  They had a disclaimer up stating that most of their posts could no longer contain lyrics, while other songs had to be completely removed. 

I guess I really don't get the point of paying just to "keep someone from suing us".  How are we as musicians stealing if we are not recording and selling the music for a profit?  Most people I know want to know what cd I got the song from so they can go and purchase their own.  My church records entire services for our shut ins or people that are unable to be at a particular service, but we don't make a profit on the tapes.  We only charge the amount that the blank tape costs. 


Where does ministry fit into all of this? I mean these songs are for the body of Christ to uplift and encourage and strengthen them, then why do all of this unneccessary rat killing, trying to control how music is handled?  I think this is really another way to make money, but as long as it is the law my church will pay.  And because we do pay I think that we have the right to question the validity of such a law, and to really have a thoughtful and intellegent debate about the very idea of paying for a license.  I think that anyone that is trying to do what is right in God's sight will question the validity of this law and its application to their church setting. 

I still think it is just absolutely absurd!!!! JMHO. 

[Ladyn]

Thanks Sjonathan02 for your reply.  After I posted this I realized that a my question about the songbook was answered in an earlier reply. (oops!)


Nichole

[pianofingers21]

IF anyone else has any questions I'm sure that I can answer them from a definite legal standpoint.

 And, MrSparrow I can debate with you all day long on this issue.. its simply not important..and from a legal standpoint its too hard to prove and prosecute such 'crimes' anyway.  Do your church a favor.. tell them to save their money and put it back into the church.

 

[foreverpraiz]

Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's! It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not. If the law of the land says to do it and it doesn't directly go against the word of God, we NEED to do it. I don't necessarily agree with the percentage of taxes I pay but doesn that mean I shouldn't pay them? I don't necessarily agree with all posted speed limits and traffic laws, but must I comply. This is more a question of intergrity than anything else right now. As musicians and the body of Christ,  we need to always be right in the sight of God. If Jesus said to pay Ceasar than we need to ask our churches to get out their checkbook and pay the piper! Our annointing is worth more than a few dollars!

[sjonathan02]

Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's! It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not. If the law of the land says to do it and it doesn't directly go against the word of God, we NEED to do it. I don't necessarily agree with the percentage of taxes I pay but doesn that mean I shouldn't pay them? I don't necessarily agree with all posted speed limits and traffic laws, but must I comply. This is more a question of intergrity than anything else right now. As musicians and the body of Christ,  we need to always be right in the sight of God. If Jesus said to pay Ceasar than we need to ask our churches to get out their checkbook and pay the piper! Our annointing is worth more than a few dollars!

[foreverpraiz]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. - Mark 12:17

I didn't say it bother, our Lord Jesus Christ did. Remeber that we are not playing for show. As musician's of the Most High God, we are called to a higher standard than someone playing on the Tonight show or a local bar. We must play by His rules and not compromise our annointing under ay circumstances. Obedience is better than sacrifice and if my Lord says "Render to Ceasear..." get out the ceckbooks because this sister WILL NOT compromise the Lord's work for any amount of money.

It doesn't matter if the government knows about our law-breaking. God sees all. I encourage everyone of you to live a life without compromise.

[sjonathan02]

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. - Mark 12:17

I didn't say it bother, our Lord Jesus Christ did. Remeber that we are not playing for show. As musician's of the Most High God, we are called to a higher standard than someone playing on the Tonight show or a local bar. We must play by His rules and not compromise our annointing under ay circumstances. Obedience is better than sacrifice and if my Lord says "Render to Ceasear..." get out the ceckbooks because this sister WILL NOT compromise the Lord's work for any amount of money.

It doesn't matter if the government knows about our law-breaking. God sees all. I encourage everyone of you to live a life without compromise.