(Poll Question) Can or Should the Pastor (DOC) a Musicians Salary?

[ferrente]

I think so, but it should depends on the issue

Ok, Good point!

[hammondboy]

I think so, but it should depends on the issue

i with u on that one

[Formuzik]

I believe in covenant relationships.  When it comes to a paid musician/m.o.m, he or she should recieve a salary that is not contract based, but service based.  In other words,  in the course of negotiations, they should not be paid by the Sunday or event, but by their commitment.   In that, a church should allow one conference, one week for sick leave or personal days, and then vacation time.  My church allows me five Sundays to be out ministering elsewhere without affecting my pay.  Anything over that does affect pay.  Now even when I'm gone, I'm still fully responsible for the services being covered with worship leaders, musicians, and special music.  Many problems that churches have with music people goes back to character problems which are fed because pastors are competing with each other and therefore look at talent over character and ultimately hurt the integrity of the whole ministry.

[organplaya04]

I believe in covenant relationships.  When it comes to a paid musician/m.o.m, he or she should recieve a salary that is not contract based, but service based.  In other words,  in the course of negotiations, they should not be paid by the Sunday or event, but by their commitment.   In that, a church should allow one conference, one week for sick leave or personal days, and then vacation time.  My church allows me five Sundays to be out ministering elsewhere without affecting my pay.  Anything over that does affect pay.  Now even when I'm gone, I'm still fully responsible for the services being covered with worship leaders, musicians, and special music.  Many problems that churches have with music people goes back to character problems which are fed because pastors are competing with each other and therefore look at talent over character and ultimately hurt the integrity of the whole ministry.

Very true ...but yes I feel that they should be docked if they are "blatently" coming in late...but things do happen sometimes like flat tires, car goes out etc...But as me being a MOM...I think we should be at church when it opens..OR (be there to open the church if needs be)...so that we can get stuff together and make sure everything is running smoothly for the service

[organman88]

It depends on the situation because when churches hire me they say for example 100 dollars a (sunday morning) so thats sunday morning service but no one talks about afternoon services or all that extra stuff but after im hired they expect the 100 dollars to cover rehearsals, out of town trips, funerals, weddings, afternoon progams and stuff like that but that doesn't mean a musician can come in late but if no rules are established before hand then there pay shouldn't be docked.

[Steelpulz]

Two weeks ago, I left a church that I had ministered with for over 6 years. I don't charge them for rehearsals and they didn't pay for them. About a year and 1 1/2 years the Pastor and the Board of Directors issued a "statement" that musicians would be docked 40% of their pay if they missed rehearsal. I sent a letter back to them stating that I didn't charge them for rehearsals and that if they wanted to change our agreement, the changes need to bee agreed to by all and should be in writing.

Since then, there have been many "misunderstandings" about finances concerning the band. When I suggested that we needed written contracts (covenants) I was told "this is a ministry not a business".

About two weeks ago, I called the M.O.M. and asked if we were going to have rehearsal that week. He told me that we weren't and asked me to tell the other band members. I followed his directions.

That Thursday, the Pastor and a few choir members showed up for rehearsal. No musicians showed. Pastor called the M.O.M. to complain. the M.O.M. explained the mistake, seemingly everything was o.k.

That Sunday, after a wonderful service, I went to get my check. It was short 40%. The directors and the Pastor and I got into it unfortunately. They refused to remedy the situation even though they knew that we didn't show because we were told not to show up. That was my last Sunday there.

[KurzLand]

 When I suggested that we needed written contracts (covenants) I was told "this is a ministry not a business".

This is the only way to avoid alot of problems, by writing things downs.

[georgiagurl]

This is the only way to avoid alot of problems, by writing things downs.

I agree wit dat

[Big T.]

I agree wit dat

Aaaaaamen!!!!

[chevonee]

This is the only way to avoid alot of problems, by writing things downs.

I agree wit dat

+1

[slburks]

If it's a job (i.e., you're being paid), then a pastor can do anything a boss can do - including fire a musician - because (s)he is the boss. In matters like this, the spiritual "hats" are not being worn.

This question highlights one of the problems that comes out of dealing with a schizophrenic organization like the capitalist church, i.e., "Is this a job, or God's house?" Well, it's both. But whenever there's a conflict of interest between the two (and there often is), there's mess. I work for the church currently because I have to, and as soon as that's no longer the case, I won't. Better volunteer than professional in my opinion.

[DirectingOrganist]

If the circumstances permit yes, now sometimes we have things that come up as we do on our everyday jobs and these should be the only times a musician can't be available without prior notice

[zeph1]

To me IT Depends..
And i say that because i play for 2 different churches. 1 church may hold longer and I may often  have to leave the one to go to the other and when i get to the other church they are still in sunday school
so here i am breaking my neck trying to get to the other service on time and have to wait till sunday school lets out

but i said all of that to say this I do think that the "Church" does have the right to withhold pay for real lateness, but not for being 5 or 10 min.

and i did say "Church" because i also think that the Pastor shouldn't dictate who or what a person gets paid. Remember the Pastor is an employee of the church as well!!!

Just my thoughts

z

[SisterT]

To me IT Depends..
And i say that because i play for 2 different churches. 1 church may hold longer and I may often  have to leave the one to go to the other and when i get to the other church they are still in sunday school
so here i am breaking my neck trying to get to the other service on time and have to wait till sunday school lets out

but i said all of that to say this I do think that the "Church" does have the right to withhold pay for real lateness, but not for being 5 or 10 min.

and i did say "Church" because i also think that the Pastor shouldn't dictate who or what a person gets paid. Remember the Pastor is an employee of the church as well!!!

Just my thoughts

z

He is an employee who is the boss---just like your boss is an employee of your company but he has the authority to hire and fire you.

I agree, with Nessa---guidelines should first be established. So let it be written, so let it be done!   I docked a musician who habitually showed up late. That was all the motivation he needed to get his act together.

[under13]

He is an employee who is the boss---just like your boss is an employee of your company but he has the authority to hire and fire you.

Thats not the case in every Church. In my church The Pastor is an employee and reports to the church council. If he wants the organist fired, he will have to go through them. Last year when we hired our new organist/assistant pastor, it was decided by the church council that the congregation vote on wether or not he would serve with us.

To me IT Depends..
And i say that because i play for 2 different churches. 1 church may hold longer and I may often  have to leave the one to go to the other and when i get to the other church they are still in sunday school
so here i am breaking my neck trying to get to the other service on time and have to wait till sunday school lets out

but i said all of that to say this I do think that the "Church" does have the right to withhold pay for real lateness, but not for being 5 or 10 min.

What excuse do you have for being 10 minutes late? Musicians should be at the church AT LEAST 10 minutes b4 service starts. I like to get there at least 15-20 minutes early, so I can  catch my breath, go over any last minute changes and pray.

I'm Sorry I have no tolerance for late musicians and singers. All of the members of my worship group have been late for the last 3 engagements and it just looks bad and it affects thier singing. One girl didnt even get to sing, cuz she walked in while our group was already singing. And these are Grown women. You would think they would know better.

Can or Should the Pastor (DOC) a Musicians Salary?

If the circumstances call for docking the musicians pay then yes the pastor or the board can and should doc thier pay.
All of that should be discussed in the employment contract.

[under13]

Sorry I posted prematuley.

I have had my check docked at my home church a few years ago. The MOM was my teacher, he was sick and was going to be out that sunday. So he was going over the songs with me, and he didnt like the chords I was playing and said I didnt listen to him. So the next week when I got my check, it was only half as much. But I still cashed the check. A while later one of council members told me that the MOM told them to cut my pay in half because I  was 'disobedeint' (imagine that ). I know he did that not cuz I was disobedient, but because he was jealous. If that was now, I would not have stood for that. It would be all or nothing. But that lesson was worth more the money, I learned at a young age that everybody is not gonna like you or your gift/talent and that there are some shiesty individuals in the church.

[LaylaMonroe]

Thats not the case in every Church. In my church The Pastor is an employee and reports to the church council. If he wants the organist fired, he will have to go through them. Last year when we hired our new organist/assistant pastor, it was decided by the church council that the congregation vote on wether or not he would serve with us.

What excuse do you have for being 10 minutes late? Musicians should be at the church AT LEAST 10 minutes b4 service starts. I like to get there at least 15-20 minutes early, so I can  catch my breath, go over any last minute changes and pray.

I'm Sorry I have no tolerance for late musicians and singers. All of the members of my worship group have been late for the last 3 engagements and it just looks bad and it affects thier singing. One girl didnt even get to sing, cuz she walked in while our group was already singing. And these are Grown women. You would think they would know better.

If the circumstances call for docking the musicians pay then yes the pastor or the board can and should doc thier pay.
All of that should be discussed in the employment contract.

I gotta agree.

I can't stand lateness, but I also can't stand churches that don't communicate their expectations, and the consequences for failing to meet those expectations, clearly.

If you want to dock an employee for lateness or unpreparedness or absenteeism, you have to have previously communicated that with said employee.  As an administrator, I have been faced with this decision countless times, and I refuse to back down from my principles.  Last April was the first service for one of my client churches.  We had worked to build this church for 8 months, I was stressed beyond belief, and had not even gone to bed the night before.  Not at all.  We were expecting about 200 ppl to the morning service, and it was scheduled to begin at 11:00a with Intercessory Prayer at 10:45a.  The musicians were asked to be IN POSITION at 10:45 (that means, on your instrument).

The drummer showed up at about 12:30.  Of course, I was beyond pissed because I learned early on that anything that goes well, reflects on the pastor; and anything that goes poorly reflects on the administrator.  This chick was making me look bad, and I was seeing red!!!  The pastor wanted to dock her since her lateness had a profoundly negative effect on the service, but I couldn't because she hadn't signed and returned her contract yet.

It sucked, but it was a lesson learned.

You cannot rightfully dock a person without previously communicating that to them.

[zeph1]

He is an employee who is the boss---just like your boss is an employee of your company but he has the authority to hire and fire you.

I agree, with Nessa---guidelines should first be established. So let it be written, so let it be done!   I docked a musician who habitually showed up late. That was all the motivation he needed to get his act together.

well like in my church and other that i have played for in the past, there has always been a elder board/deacon board to handle the money matters of the church. but in some places that has changed!!!
 

[jkeys189441]

why should we ever be in a posistion to get docked?

[jane68]

I HAVE PLAYED FOR SEVERAL CHOIRS AND MOST OF THE CHURCHES- THE PASTOR DID NOT HIRE ME AND HE DID NOT GOVERN THE PAY. IF THE CHOIRS HAD A PROBLEM-THEY USUALLY HAD AN ADVISOR TO THE CHOIR-WHICH WAS USUALLY A MEMBER OF THE DEACONS MINISTRY OR THE TRUSTEE MINISTRY AND THEN IF THE PROBLEM WAS NOT SOLVED THERE-THEN IT WENT TO THE PASTOR. CERTAINLY,- I AGREE THAT MUSICIANS SHOULD BE DOCKED-BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT THE PASTOR SHOULD HAVE TO BE BOTHERED WITH SUCH THINGS.......  SO YES- WHOEVER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DOCKING SHOULD DOCK!!!!!!