Playing in two different keys in church

[Purplekeys]

Does anyone ever have to deal with this in church? In my church i am the choir director of the adults and youth and music in general. My Pastor and dad whos the assistant  Pastor jumps in whenever they like and mess the whole sound up because they start playing in another key or just start bamming on the instruments knowing that they cant really play at all. This is very hard being that i am trying to get better. They dont think that it really matters if you know how ot play as long as what you do is unto God. smh...

[under13]

2 choices :

A - Tell them to stop.

B - Find a new church.

If you choose A, you'll probably end up choosing B as well.  Also if you still live with your dad, you might not want to choose A or B.

Good luck!!

[Purplekeys]

OMG thats too funny lol... but yeah its really something. the thing about it is if i find wherever my dad is it sounds pretty good but he cant really hear music well so if the spirit shifts he jumps keys and loses me but the others who just gets on the instruments they dont know nothing about music at all

[Sillyie]

Help him train his ears to hear the correct key so that is he can play better. Not only will it help him, it will help you because by teaching, it will help build confidence in your playing.

[musallio]

I think it's a classic case of miscommunication.

[still laughing at under13's recommendation- dude, I know what your favorite recommendation for anyone is,"leave the church "]

So you are busy playing in Ab then your papa comes and plays in Db..
The solution to this is to tell him at home [if you stay with him] that dad, whenever I am playing and then you come and play on a different key, you throw me and the whole congregation off. Next time before you start playing, please ask me what key I'm on. Alternatively, you should tell me what key you want to go to before you start playing.

I understand your frustration because my pastor sometimes does that. But I think at some stage he picked up that I was not impressed, so he tends to ask me what key I'm in [rare] or tells me to go to the key he wants to play in. At least that is respectful.
Half the time though, I kinda have to figure out what key he is in, but it's not too difficult coz  I can see his fingers from an angle.

As for the others [who "can't play", depending on your familiarity with them, you can either ask them politely not to play as they throw you off, or ask your dad to  talk on your behalf, without exposing you

[under13]

lol. I think leaving should almost always be the last resort, but one thing I've learned is that you can not change church folks. So many times, depending on the situation, it's not even worth fighting over.
 

[Purplekeys]

@musallio he doesnt even know how to play in different keys or what key he is playing in so half of the time i just let him start playing and then find him. Im not exactly sure how to teach how to play in keys and just to be honest i dont think hes interested in really learning how to play seriously. Do either of you play guitar cause i ordered him the dvd from hear and play and i think its kinda difficult for him

[musallio]

lol. I think leaving should almost always be the last resort, but one thing I've learned is that you can not change church folks. So many times, depending on the situation, it's not even worth fighting over.

So true...

@musallio he doesnt even know how to play in different keys or what key he is playing in so half of the time i just let him start playing and then find him. Im not exactly sure how to teach how to play in keys and just to be honest i dont think hes interested in really learning how to play seriously. Do either of you play guitar cause i ordered him the dvd from hear and play and i think its kinda difficult for him

That is so difficult. Based on what you said, it seems like he can play in various keys, so it will be difficult to communicate- so you just need to rely on your ear...

Unfortunately I am yet [whenever that will be ] to learn the guitar. If it's hear and play material, then I know it's good.
Question- is your dad finding it difficult because the material is "too advanced for him" or is it because he doesn't really have a passion for the guitar/ learning?
I have a personal policy that I don't bother explaining how music works to someone who doesn't have the passion to learn. [I'm not saying it is],but it could be the same case with your dad, But if he is trying his best to grasp the DVD and he is failing to understand, there are super-good teachers here who can assist. Just go to the guitar forum and you will find a host of them.
One person that comes to mind that you can drop a pm is gtrdave. Like I said, you'll find a whole community of them who are more than willing to help your dad

[betnich]

"i dont think hes interested in really learning how to play seriously"

the curse of the modern church.....

[musallio]

"i dont think hes interested in really learning how to play seriously"

the curse of the modern church.....

The sad thing is that he is not even being asked to learn to play seriously- just being asked to learn :
1) the name of the key he is playing in; and
2) to communicate when he wants to change keys.

Is that too much to ask of someone?

[betnich]

The sad thing is that he is not even being asked to learn to play seriously- just being asked to learn :
1) the name of the key he is playing in; and
2) to communicate when he wants to change keys.

Is that too much to ask of someone?

Some people don't even know the names of chords, or the keys they play in - just "it's a white/black key" or "it's two frets up". More excusable in drummers and guitar/bass players than in keyboardists, IMO.


What gets me is not people who don't know, but those who don't want to know better...

[Purplekeys]

Thanks guys for listening

[musallio]

Some people don't even know the names of chords, or the keys they play in - just "it's a white/black key" or "it's two frets up". More excusable in drummers and guitar/bass players than in keyboardists, IMO.

The chord part I can understand that some people might be intimidated by the names. But come on, the key you're in stuff is the lowest common denominator that any musician ought to know.

What gets me is not people who don't know, but those who don't want to know better...

Yep!!
There's nothing as frustrating as someone asking me, "you play in these white keys?!!" or, "you start/ end on these white keys/ this black key- I only play in these [pointing at a key, doesn't know the name of the key]". The you offer to teach the person the names of the keys and how they can start playing in them. The immediate response is, oh no, they're too difficult!!

Come on, anything is difficult but learning the names of keys.

Sorry, i had to rant as well

Thanks guys for listening

That's what this 'hood is here for

[floaded27]

Tell me about it. i hate asking folks what key they're in and they say "i dont know.. im just playing".  thats like asking someone what book are they reading and they say they "i dont know...im just looking at words". its quite silly to me. of course its  understandable when you're playing something thats ambiguous. (say Abmaj to C#maj can be either a 1-4 in Ab or a 5-1 in C#), but when u going playing all these other chords, u gotta know what key you're in.

but i tend to see this trend with keyboardists who played by themselves all the time. the drummer doesnt need to know what chords you play or what key you're in. But when you play with a band, its necessary for communication. so if you come from a band setting or want to do so, then not learning this stuff is insane to me.

Some people don't even know the names of chords, or the keys they play in - just "it's a white/black key" or "it's two frets up". More excusable in drummers and guitar/bass players than in keyboardists, IMO.


What gets me is not people who don't know, but those who don't want to know better...

in my opinion, never excusable with a bass player. by nature u come from a band setting. hardly ever a solo bass player that holds down every song alone. you need to know what you're playing and how to communicate that to others as well as understand whats being communicated to you.

[musallio]

in my opinion, never excusable with a bass player. by nature u come from a band setting. hardly ever a solo bass player that holds down every song alone. you need to know what you're playing and how to communicate that to others as well as understand whats being communicated to you.

I don't know guitar/ bass scales/ chords, but I know a couple of good bass players who just have no idea what they are playing- they just know how to play when the band starts, but have no idea what they are playing...It's so frustrating because if I want to learn from them i can't even put a name to the chord unless if I check it on the piano!

[floaded27]

I don't know guitar/ bass scales/ chords, but I know a couple of good bass players who just have no idea what they are playing- they just know how to play when the band starts, but have no idea what they are playing...It's so frustrating because if I want to learn from them i can't even put a name to the chord unless if I check it on the piano!

that was my issue with trying to learn bass. so many just play but dont know anything. and while ur a skilled player, to me it seems all for nothing if u havent got even the slightest clue on how to pass that on to players coming up after you. its like a scientist doing profound research and dies with all he's learned because he doesnt know how to explain it to anyone. That was one of the reasons I made sure I know what I'm doing for every thing i learn. I would like to be able to help others learn.

[T-Block]

I don't know guitar/ bass scales/ chords, but I know a couple of good bass players who just have no idea what they are playing- they just know how to play when the band starts, but have no idea what they are playing...It's so frustrating because if I want to learn from them i can't even put a name to the chord unless if I check it on the piano!

That is one of my biggest pet peeves in music. How the heck can you play something and not know anything about what it is you're playing? Heck, the bare minimum is to know the notes.

[musallio]

that was my issue with trying to learn bass. so many just play but dont know anything. and while ur a skilled player, to me it seems all for nothing if u havent got even the slightest clue on how to pass that on to players coming up after you. its like a scientist doing profound research and dies with all he's learned because he doesnt know how to explain it to anyone. That was one of the reasons I made sure I know what I'm doing for every thing i learn. I would like to be able to help others learn.

that was my issue with trying to learn bass. so many just play but dont know anything. and while ur a skilled player, to me it seems all for nothing if u havent got even the slightest clue on how to pass that on to players coming up after you. its like a scientist doing profound research and dies with all he's learned because he doesnt know how to explain it to anyone. That was one of the reasons I made sure I know what I'm doing for every thing i learn. I would like to be able to help others learn.

I'm shedding with one of the security guards at the complex where I stay. He plays in one key on the piano [has played in big events for many years] and also plays the guitar really well.

The aim for the shed is :

1) For me to explain to him what he is playing [he is receptive to that, but has still not grasped the concept of calling notes by name- likes to say, "this black one" or, "that white one" ;

2) For me to teach him how to start playing in other keys [At least he has started to learn the scales, but it is such a task because he is not too focused- can be easily distracted to start playing what he knows in the key he knows

3) For him to teach me how to play proficiently in his genre [I am just lazy to practice if there is no one singing- it's easier to learn that style in a live church setting because I know what the players would be doing when I hear it ]; So the best way I learn when he is playing is by listening and trying to break that down in a logical way that I understand and I add my extra bits; and

4) For him to teach me how to play the guitar. I struggle because I find that people who don't know note names tend to have a low or no passion for teaching..

[floaded27]

I can easily understand how a person can play music well, but not know the names of the notes he's playing. The the most uninitiated listener, music is not interpreted as notes and mathematics by the higher brain, but translates into feelings and emotions by the lower brain. You don't play a C major arpeggio because it's made up of the notes C,E, and G. You play it because it feels whole and complete. It's all in the vibrations, not the names. That's where a lot of people go wrong when the try to start improvising.

You don't need to know the names to create nice sounding music. You just need them for communication. It's like "speaking in tongues", except people can actually understand what your saying, even if they can't tell you how they're saying what they're saying.

of course its easy to play and not knowing what you're playing. but its easy to see how that can become detrimental as well. say all you can/want to do is play crazy riffs and solos. so what that you dont know the notes, when its time to solo again, you just make up something else. but what happens when you write songs?? true ideas that you want to repeat and catalogue? how do  you do that? i create songs all the times. the ones that i dont write down, i forget in the midst of all my other learning. if someone says they've written 20 songs and they're all in their head, chances are they wrote more than that, but only 20 they remember.

i know folks that work this way, and every time they play a song, they have to figure it out on the fly EVERY TIME. why? because they never know what they're actually playing. change key, and they have to relearn on the fly once again (even if it was just a modulation during the song). to me thats a crippling way to play. not to say that there arent musical geniuses who dont know the notes or more theory, but think about how much beyond that current genius was lost or forgotten due to this inability.