Wisdom from a gospel/rnb great of today!!!

[SabianKnight]

Here is a subject of much debate here on LGM being addressed on a drummer's blog network i investigated from a link posted by beatboxers recently (Thanks for the link doc!). In the replies is commentary from gospel/rnb great Gorden Campbell, a favorite amongst LGMers. Take heed to his words. pay attention to the things I put in bold.
I am posting the actual links so folk know I didn't make this up. Notice that this is what I try to teach/impart here in the LGM drum room....>>Sabe


http://thedrumnetwork.ning.com/xn/detail/1977322:Comment:34211
http://thedrumnetwork.ning.com/xn/detail/1977322:Comment:34380

<<original topic subject title>>
Tendencies among young r&b/gospel drummers

Posted by jay jackson on February 9, 2008 at 8:15am in The shed

Hi gang.I have a question:is it just me or are cats starting to really overdo it playing wise on some of these tours?I have two deciding factors against me.1)I'm an old schooler at heart where I was taught to blend in to my surroundings and 2)I've lived in Europe for so long that maybe I'm out of touch with what's going on.

What I find the most annoying is the overuse of the hi-hats!So many 32nds and 64ths,it's like speed metal turned upside down!I think it's ok to drop in a nice fill on the hats sparsely but playing the Wilcoxon book on a gig all night is like a bass player slapping on 'Round Midnight!

The high frequency of the hats allow them to cut through without beating the stew out of them I think.

I really applaud these kids for their dedication to the craft because they've taken the time to get the chops up,but everything has a time or place.

This isn't a dis of any kind,just an observation.What do y'all think?jj



Reply by Gorden Campbell on February 24, 2008 at 10:48pm
    wassup everyone! hope u guys are doing well! I jus read this discussion and I'm glad it came up. I guess i'm one of the gospel/R&B cats out there working. So, I think i can speak on it. 1st of all, Thanks for asking because I think a lot of people get the wrong impression of us. Not all of us overplay or have no experience. there are a lot of cats that play good solid grooves and understand the music and the role of the drummer. I agree that a lot of our playing style comes from the type of music that we're playing. Drum machines have taken over the majority of popular music. Most artist want the live band to sound like the record, so when we play, we have to recreate what was probably programmed by someone who NEVER even picked up a drumstick!!! I do agree that some of us take it a little far as far as the chops go, but in general we're playing what the artist want. I've done gigs before where I actually thought that it was too much, but the artist(Who prob have little experience) like to hear it. They think it's Hype. so in order to keep the gig we have to play it. We play for the gig. A lot of u brought up Aaron Spears. Have u seen him on the American Idol tour or with the Backstreet boys? check it out. he's not playing like he does with Usher. On top of that if u watch a few different Usher shows, you'll notice that he does the same (or close to) licks in the same exact spots every time. A lot of that stuff is calculated it's not jus random chops all over the place. I do agree that a lot of the younger cats overplay and have NO musicality. I think thats it's up to us to try to teach them the way. I talk to guys everyday on Myspace who ask me for tips on how to be a better drummer. The 1st thing i tell them is to be Musical. Focus on being a musician and not just a drummer. when being a musicain is the focus, chops become secondary. It's good to have chops but it's even better to know when and where to use them! hopefully this will give u guys some insight on Gospel/ R&B drummers. Also, if u wanna hear some real good (musical) funky gospel drummers check out, Chris Johnson( Stevie Wonder, Seal) Calvin Rodgers (Marvin Sapp), Teddy Campbell(American Idol) Lil John Roberts, Marvin McQuitty

Reply by Gorden Campbell on February 25, 2008 at 3:06pm
    wassup guys. I should've def started this off by saying that I agree with your assessment in terms of some of the cats overplaying and really busy hi hat patterns. Because sometimes i'm listening thinking the same thing that u asked about. The main thing that bothers me is that most people equate that to ALL R&B/ Gospel Drummers. that's why i gave a few names of some cats that are Laying it down. I love that fact that we are even discussing this because if not, most people would just go on thinking that we all play like that. The whole chops thing has become a fad with the younger guys. Youtube and sheds and things of that nature have almost messed up the music! lol! What happens is, a lot of the young guys get caught up in chops and they really have no one to reel them in and tell them that that is not the way. most of these guys have no formal training so They're basically copying what they see on videos (with NO direction). (One of the most important things that I was taught was to listen to HOW drummers play and not always WHAT they are playing). try to figure out why they did a big fill right there, or why he just broke it down(It Has to make sense!). A lot of these fills are to set up the next section of the song. Nobody's teaching the younger guys! I always tell younger guys to focus on that pocket and making the groove feel good. I was Fortunate enough to have played in school and played in many bands with older cats that let me have it if I got too busy! these younger guys don't really have that mentoring that I was able to get. And a lot of them don't have a big vocabulary (musically) outside of hip hop and Gospel. I always try to turn guys onto new (old) music. And different genre's of music. From Jazz to Rock. I've noticed that the more music people know, the more musical they will play.
[/b]

[SabianKnight]

Here is some more good commentary from another drummer on that same blog topic...

http://thedrumnetwork.ning.com/xn/detail/1977322:Comment:34612

<<this is only part of the post - Sabe>>

Reply by David "Young Professor" Cowan on February 26, 2008 at 4:09pm
.... But I have a concern that is a larger challenge than the fact that people over play. The challenge of musical literacy among our young church musicians. Literacy and nurturing the right attitudes towards education. Think about this...young players get their attitudes about what is good from the model older players. In other words..it matters less what we say ..ie "man, you really need to hold down that pocket...and be more musical" ..what we DO is the biggie...and it seems to me that a lot of cats as much as we talk about playing pocket and laying down a groove..we as a drumming community don't seem to have the same level of respect for the cats who just lay it down. At least that's the way it seems to me. TO prove my point. HAs anyone else ever felt like a lot of us drummers use the term "pocket-player" as sort of a euphemism for "this cat ain't got no chops"? lol Now we know that's not necessarily the case. But I've heard the expression used that way so many times that I can't ignore it. Like the time Modern Drummer did a review of a Michelle N'degeocello album and started it off with "relative new-comer, pocket player Chris Dave...."..first of all..it was just 2 or 3 years ago and at that point Chris Dave was no newcomer by any stretch of the imagination. THEY at modern drummer had perhaps, just not heard of him. But the other part is that Chris Dave has RIDICULOUS facility on the drums! But I reall felt like the reviewer was slighting Chris for not playing a whole lot of busy stuff on the record.

And then there are the drum clinics- OMG! Concerts over drum clinics anytime. So young drummers can actually see seasoned cats playing on a real gig. We as older musicians really need to star thinking about how we can create affordable ways for kids to hear us play. So that they can learn and develop a love for PLAYING music. Before everybody ends up playing the drum machine. Creating communities of music and art where people can just hang out and play and learn.

[mingusfingus]

Thanks for posting this, Sabe.

There was a  MD issue of march 2007 with Vinnie on the cover. And in the article he was talking exactly the same things. I can make a photo of the article and post somewhere but i`m not sure if it`s legal...lol

[min_amw]

Great Post! I actually was a victim of that way of thinking, and I was in a recording. The artist wanted the drums to be busy because he thought that busy drum patterns = a hot song. Not so! But I was giving him what he thought he wanted, even though I didn't agree. I asked him a few weeks later if we could record a couple more takes on the same music so that I could show him how to make the vocals stand out (which should be the focus anyway). He agreed and now it sounds a lot better. Even the artist expressed how much better the music feels.

We have to realize that when playing music, as musicians, we can always hear what we think will sound good from a MUSICIAN'S standpoint. But the bigger challenge is playing what will make sense and feel good to the general audience. After all, it's most of those peope who who buy the cd's! LOL! This applies whteher you are recording or playing live on Sunday morning. You don't have to learn the hard way! Peace!

[Lildrummaboy66]

Good stuff bruh! No comment from me, they said it all in that post

[djdavis]

thats a great post

[BEATBOXERZ]

Good info in the post Sabe  !

[SabianKnight]

My heart is to help develop better musicians in the percussion arena of the music today regardless of genre. Music is a special part of God's glory that we have to respect and be better stewards of. Music bi-passes philosophies and belief systems and goes straight to the spirit and soul and we have got to stop creating and listening to half-hearted, half-cocked, non-edifying garbage. If music and art defines our times (because it is the creative manifestation of our inner being and thoughts) then we should not be surprised at the world we live in. Real talk. In the words of George Clinton, "Think, it ain't illegal yet"... let's stop being maggot brains.

I hope everyone reads that entire thread on those links and sees what the real veterans are saying.

Gospel guys/LGM need to pay attention to the historical fact that initially gospel drummers got the job because they were cheap labor because the veteran pros new the real monatary value of the gig. Ouch! read the entire post ya'll...

[smarkland38]

Great info Sabe, lot of the younger i noticed when i travel from church to church also forget about the FUNDERMENTALS OR RUDIMENTS as well 

[SabianKnight]

Great info Sabe, lot of the younger i noticed when i travel from church to church also forget about the FUNDERMENTALS OR RUDIMENTS as well 

Agreed. For folks to concentrate and learn fundamentals we have to talk fundamentals. We have to be conscious of our language. We have to stop talking about "licks" and start talking about phrases. We have to reiterate the true definition of "having chops": being fundimentally sound. That means being rudimentally sound. Drum corp guys have chops, classical pianist and violinist have chops. What do these examples have in common? They master their fundamentals... they constantly test and prove them against the established standards of performance via juried competitions proving themselves worthy of their musical chairs/positions. We have to deal with the standards and uphold them. This qualifies us for the opportunities to be great, to be brought before great men.

We have to be examples for life-long teachable students constantly growing. We have to be teachers of what we know to be true willing to seek out that which we don't know or have on lock. Then directing those taking notes from us to the better way. In this information age $150 Air Jordans should not be more important than a $20-50 instruction DVD. The benefits of the DVD increase ones ability to play the instrument, make music, make money and far out weigh the Jordans ability to get you shot trying to look like a balla.   

[Vangie D]

Great post, Thanks for the share!

[DESQ]

I actually had an opportunity to read this whole blog (boy I must have too much time on my hand) and I was a little offended by some of the comments, especially the disparaging remarks towards the gospel drummer.  It seems that "gospel" drummers are painted with a broadbrush.  Like one poster stated we should judge the music (gospel) by the best--not based on a cross-section of youtube videos that permeate the WWW.  Ever hear of Dana Davis, Jeff Davis, Marvin Mcquitty, etc, etc.  I don't judge all "rock" drummers and call them non-musical b/c of what I have seen across the internet.   Yet, gospel drummers are judged most harshly.    Do the younger cats need guidance--SURE. But it's time we defend the GOSPEL DRUMMER.  Just my 2 cents.

[SabianKnight]

I actually had an opportunity to read this whole blog (boy I must have too much time on my hand) and I was a little offended by some of the comments, especially the disparaging remarks towards the gospel drummer.  It seems that "gospel" drummers are painted with a broadbrush.  Like one poster stated we should judge the music (gospel) by the best--not based on a cross-section of youtube videos that permeate the WWW.  Ever hear of Dana Davis, Jeff Davis, Marvin Mcquitty, etc, etc.  I don't judge all "rock" drummers and call them non-musical b/c of what I have seen across the internet.   Yet, gospel drummers are judged most harshly.    Do the younger cats need guidance--SURE. But it's time we defend the GOSPEL DRUMMER.  Just my 2 cents.

There is no need to defend what the masses have already torn down. There is no need to offended by true observations. You may feel it is a broad brush but the strokes are painted on a published picture in our churches, in our communities, on the World Wide Web. What we have to do is build and BE PROOF OF TRUE MUSICIANSHIP. Simply put, Don't talk about it, Be About It." YouTube and MySpace posters... even big name ones have shown the practice of wrong stuff and encourage the performance of the same. Now we have Pastors in the local churches that cannot find qualified musicians nor even pay then to be disciplined ministers in the bandstand rather than auditioning for their next viral internet vid clip. True psalmist, minstrels/musicians, music ministers cannot sustain their ministries nor livelihoods because their is no unity and not enough true laborers for the harvest. So do not get upset at the true observations and commentary. Instead be a catalyst of correction in your circle of influence and local area.

-Go to a shed and teach: Turn it into a hands-on clinic. Truley leave no child (of God) behind
-SOW/PLANT/INVEST instructional libraries of music books and DVDs into your local church and TRAIN A CHILD (OR CHILD_LIKE ADULT IN            THE WAY THEY SHOULD GO)
-HOSTS Clinics and bring in qualified teachers and experienced professionals TO TEACH - INVEST

I just gave solutions. But whatever you do, don't take offense at the exposed truth, don't deny what we see here on LGM everyday. START pruning and healing process... that is what the men, priests, husbandmen are to do. 

[DESQ]

To SabianKnight:

I'm not offended by the truth, I'm offended by whole-scale labeling, profiling and broad characterizations.  I understand your point and whole-heartedly agree.  I do as much.  Additionally, you have brought knowledge to this board and edified on many occassions.  I applaud you and often shake my head in agreement when I read your posts, but let's be fair.  IT IS A BROADBRUSH.    Let's bring some balance to the discussion.  I don't judge and condemn the entire Gospel drumming world by what I have seen on youtube.  That's a warped perspective.   Is there a problem--YES.  I'll be the first to admit such.  However, is it just Gospel/R&B drummers? Certainly not. 

BTW, I'm not hear to defend the non-musical, no-groove-only licks Gospel drummer, but I certainly have traveled this country, fellowshipped with many different churches and denominations throughout this land to not label the Gospel drummer as some incompetent,uneducated buffoon who's purely just pulling out hot licks and has no understanding of rudiments, dynamics, spacing and how to play with other musicians. I can not and will not go there with you and I'm one of the most critical cats you will find out there.  The Gospel world is MUCH bigger than the cats of the LGM family and youtube.  There are some educated, diverse and technically proficient Gospel drummers out there.  It's just that there are not that many performing Gospel artists to showcase these fine and talented individuals on a large-scale basis, unlike the jazz, blue and country scene.  Alas, some just ply their craft in there local church or for community gigs.  They're spreading their knowledge and experience for those that will listen!

[SabianKnight]

To SabianKnight:

I'm not offended by the truth, I'm offended by whole-scale labeling, profiling and broad characterizations.  I understand your point and whole-heartedly agree.  I do as much.  Additionally, you have brought knowledge to this board and edified on many occassions.  I applaud you and often shake my head in agreement when I read your posts, but let's be fair.  IT IS A BROADBRUSH.    Let's bring some balance to the discussion.  I don't judge and condemn the entire Gospel drumming world by what I have seen on youtube.  That's a warped perspective.   Is there a problem--YES.  I'll be the first to admit such.  However, is it just Gospel/R&B drummers? Certainly not. 

BTW, I'm not hear to defend the non-musical, no-groove-only licks Gospel drummer, but I certainly have traveled this country, fellowshipped with many different churches and denominations throughout this land to not label the Gospel drummer as some incompetent,uneducated buffoon who's purely just pulling out hot licks and has no understanding of rudiments, dynamics, spacing and how to play with other musicians. I can not and will not go there with you and I'm one of the most critical cats you will find out there.  The Gospel world is MUCH bigger than the cats of the LGM family and youtube.  There are some educated, diverse and technically proficient Gospel drummers out there.  It's just that there are not that many performing Gospel artists to showcase these fine and talented individuals on a large-scale basis, unlike the jazz, blue and country scene.  Alas, some just ply their craft in there local church or for community gigs.  They're spreading their knowledge and experience for those that will listen!

The broad brush only applies to those who accept the label. I am a musician who plays the drumset as primary instrument. As we all know or should, drummers are expected to play any and all styles that come their way. Yes one will tend to excel in a few but the best are not labeled or limited to a genre. The are known by their proven capabilities. This is why fusion greats Chester Thompson, Alex Acuna and bass great Abe Laborial Sr. play/record for gospel great Helen Baylor. Or Calvin Rogers playing/recording (I could be wrong on the recording part) with Urban Knights. And with all the gospel music on the shelves we only find Jeremy Haynes, Calvin Rogers, Marvin McQuitty, J.D. Blair, Derico Watson on the sessions "A-List." Not there are not other capable guys but the proof is in the pudding. All these other capable guys have show themselves approved. Go after session opps on the big scale. Even go after back-up spots for major artists tours. Establish teaching practices to raise up other musicians in the local church that are pro caliber regardless of where they may be playing.

The fact is that the more visible people claiming/repping the gospel label are over shadowing the real musicians birthed in the church and groomed in study,diligence and wise counsel. The "it don't take all that technical stuff and study" mentality being put on display casts a shadow on those being "good stewards of what God has given". That mentality is being allowed to run rampant under the guise of "youth will be youth" but the truth is "train a child in the way they should go...." It is also misrepresenting gospel reared musicians/urban church musicians as a whole. I personally will not wear the label of a gospel drummer/musician even though I clearly support the arena and am a part of it. I see the label as a limitation. I am a Christian musician who plays to the best of my ability at a given time and remain a student of the gift of which I steward. Whenever I play I strive to allow God's gift to shine through. I have purposed to overcome the issue in my circle of influence. The fact is, excellence needs no other label and has none. There are plenty gospel artists out there on the large scale like the members of F.L.O.W. striving to do the same because they recognize and acknowledge how serious the problem is. My views are on a collective mentality that is in error. The commentary in the blog references are from those who have observed on multiple occasion the issues that this mentality causes in the professional setting. They are from former church musicians and the unchurched who expect a better  presentation of God's people better representation of the urban church's fruit of a God of excellence.

Let us raise the bar and uphold the standard proving our beliefs, showing our faith and the stabilty thereof.