LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Gospel Instruments => Gospel Keyboard / Piano => Topic started by: blue_jays on July 18, 2011, 01:38:55 PM
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I get asked this question alot: What is the job of a second keyboard player?
In my experience the job of the second keyboard is to backup the main keyboard player.This maybe through playing horns, synth, strings. They are to fill in the gaps that are left by the main keyboard player who is playing piano or rhodes. The second keyboard player needs to be locked with the main keyboard as well as the rest of the band. If they are not locked what they play can be shear noice. Here are just a couple of thoughts with what the second keyboard players' job is?
I want to know what do you all think of this?
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It would be cool if more 2nd board players would use some sounds other than strings and horns. When you start doing leads and pads etc it takes the music to another level.
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Depends on what the main keys is doing and the make up of the band.
The main uses for a second board player seems to be running bass line, padding, or auxiliaries.
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No doubt, the keyboard player should be padding however when it comes time to soloing the second keys player needs to lay back when the 1st is soloing.
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Personally, I wouldn't look at it like backing but the main player. I see them as equals, along with drums or any other instrument. Likewise, during soloing one should support the other or not play, depending on what the music calls for. But 2nd player is to add flavor and make more musical sentences, like lines and themes and concepts for orchestration. They enhance the music. If I were asked abt the role, i'd tell someone to check out good aux players.
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I hated being the second keyboard player. I had to follow the lead keyboardist and it was just a headache. He played a lot of "altered" chords, so our chords were always clashing. Even the simplest songs became unrecognizable. I was so glad when the church promoted me to lead keyboardist.
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That true sometimes there is no communication involved and it can be a deciding factor in who is in control.
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Yup SketchMan3
This case in point can go for an instrument. This is a question that a lot of musicians ask and have never found an answer until now. What it comes down to is choosing the right sound for the right moment if you are a second keyboard player, guitar player etc.
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Adding in any instrument means each person has to do less. Concept many dont understand which is why the big band concept is poorly executed with many solo musicians. Its kinda like thinking putting a bunch of solo superstars together automatically makes an invincible super team. If they cant adjust its nothing more than a big name mess.
The group i used to play with had an organist and a keyboardist, in addition to a 2nd keyboardist from time to time. And they'd all switch depending on the setting or song. This made it obvious of the roles because u saw that each approached organ, keyboard and 2nd keys differently.
If the song is keyboard led, the organ does what it does, usually swells and fills (but i've even heard some jazz style comping on the organ as well), but the 2nd keys has more versatility by choosing an accompanying sound thats appropriate (EP, Strings, Brass, Synth Pad, etc). Now depending on the song and style of the player depends on what you can do, because I've observed, there are different things that work, even within the SAME song. But it boils down to the concept of less is more. Both players can be going hard playing in every single space and doing runs at every single opportunity. Complement one another, as well as the other musicians in the group.
And if theres a competent bass player, by no means should any of them be doing bass runs!!!
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And if theres a competent bass player, by no means should any of them be doing bass runs!!!
And if there is a competent guitar or keyboard player, by no means should the bass player play chords. :D
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Adding in any instrument means each person has to do less. Concept many dont understand which is why the big band concept is poorly executed with many solo musicians. Its kinda like thinking putting a bunch of solo superstars together automatically makes an invincible super team. If they cant adjust its nothing more than a big name mess.
Yep but what you get is a Hot Ghetto Mess. :)
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Understandable
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In my situation it is clashing BIG TIME. I play organ, and my style is old-school gospel,while the keyboardist is "contemporary"....no blending, sounds like a hot mess.
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It happens a lot and these are the issues that are least talked about in music.
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Adding in any instrument means each person has to do less. Concept many dont understand which is why the big band concept is poorly executed with many solo musicians. Its kinda like thinking putting a bunch of solo superstars together automatically makes an invincible super team. If they cant adjust its nothing more than a big name mess.
Yes!!! I couldn't stand being with a group of musicians who didn't like to blend. I couldn't stand when every musician tried to show their best moves and the song because to busy. I couldn't stand when everyone tried to be heard above all others and in the end, you hear noise, and now, you can't tell what song is playing or hear the singers. Those who have played with me, know that I won't play on top of mess, just to be heard. I will gracefully bow out... :)
I hated being the second keyboard player. I had to follow the lead keyboardist and it was just a headache. He played a lot of "altered" chords, so our chords were always clashing. Even the simplest songs became unrecognizable. I was so glad when the church promoted me to lead keyboardist.
Same thing has happened to me :D :D :D I just didn't like 2nd keys....At.ALL!!! (still don't :D)
I'm lead musician, now, but I'm working with one of my teens on keyboard who have come a long way. Trying to get her out more, so sometimes, I'll tell her to take lead.
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This is interesting information to know. I have been teaching our bass player the keyboard, in hopes that he could assist as well, but never understood how the two-keyboard concept really worked, being that I've always been a solo musician.
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Schweet! Thanks, Sketch! I'll check it out as soon I get home. :)
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This has been a very interesting topic that was started. I was surprised to see so many different comments and perpectives. How about we take this a little further now that we know what the seconf keyboardist job is what instruments do you think would be suitable?
For funk
-Jazz
-Gospel
-Worship
Thanks to everyone for checking out the Musicians Forum.
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Now, this is cool. Hillsong uploaded a series of videos from their CD "God Is Able" that allows you to check out each instrument and see what they're doing. Here's the link for the Keys Lead of each song.
God is Able - Keys Lead Tracks ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3igLXnHkHy8#ws[/url])
You just click on a song to see check it out, and while watching a video, you can click on any of the instruments and it will switch to a video emphasizing that instrument, continuing on from where you stopped.
Pretty cool. Admittedly, this is a CCM example of keyboards working together, but I think one could learn a little from studying these. Most of the keyboard parts are pretty simple, though, and mostly just filling in the space for the guitars.
That is really cool. Wow!!
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Hi "SketchMan3"....
....Those set of videos are simply amazing. There's something for everyone, they've really done a great job with the videos. You able to view any section of the song with any instrument.
I agree most of the keyboard parts are pretty simple but there's certainly some space for those who want to learn this style. Thanks for sharing.
PianoWiz...
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The video is very nice. I would recommend that you check out the Musicians Forum
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When you are playing auxiliary keys, you are just that - AUXILIARY. You are not supposed to make your 'voice' heard, but are supposed to compliment what is going on. Auxiliary, by definition, means that the song can go on perfectly well without you - you are there to add flavor and fullness.
I play both roles in my church depending on the service and my style and what I do has to be changed to fit the situation (Our lead pianist is a classically trained, plays mostly just what is written on the page and can square off the funkiest of songs and I am a bluesy by-ear player). If you are like I am an can't stand a clean 1-3-5 chord playing behind someone who knows nothing else, learn the chords they use and change the voicing of the chords when you are playing pads or Rhodes behind them. Adding a 2nd here and a 9th there can add complexity to the song and fill out the sound.
You have to be willing to submit to what is going on with the other instruments in order to play an effective aux role. LISTEN. LISTEN. LISTEN. There are times where it is too crowded already on a song without added noise, no matter how skillful. Find your places to come in and out of the song - even the best guitar solo in the world would get tired to your ears if it went on continuously throughout an entire song.
If the lead keyboardists style is classical, funk, gospel, country, whatever - then that should also be your prevailing style for that song. Remember, you are there to compliment. I don't agree that you are there to backup the lead keyboard player - the aux keys is a different instrument altogether even though it looks the same. You are there to compliment EVERY instrument in the band. You get to be a cello complimenting a bass player, be a steel drum player riffing off the drummer, be an oboe player putting a theme or melody above the choir, be the violin that sings part of the melody with the lead vocalist - what fun. Don't be a competing piano player - what's the point in that?
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When you are playing auxiliary keys, you are just that - AUXILIARY. You are not supposed to make your 'voice' heard, but are supposed to compliment what is going on. Auxiliary, by definition, means that the song can go on perfectly well without you - you are there to add flavor and fullness.
I play both roles in my church depending on the service and my style and what I do has to be changed to fit the situation (Our lead pianist is a classically trained, plays mostly just what is written on the page and can square off the funkiest of songs and I am a bluesy by-ear player). If you are like I am an can't stand a clean 1-3-5 chord playing behind someone who knows nothing else, learn the chords they use and change the voicing of the chords when you are playing pads or Rhodes behind them. Adding a 2nd here and a 9th there can add complexity to the song and fill out the sound.
You have to be willing to submit to what is going on with the other instruments in order to play an effective aux role. LISTEN. LISTEN. LISTEN. There are times where it is too crowded already on a song without added noise, no matter how skillful. Find your places to come in and out of the song - even the best guitar solo in the world would get tired to your ears if it went on continuously throughout an entire song.
If the lead keyboardists style is classical, funk, gospel, country, whatever - then that should also be your prevailing style for that song. Remember, you are there to compliment. I don't agree that you are there to backup the lead keyboard player - the aux keys is a different instrument altogether even though it looks the same. You are there to compliment EVERY instrument in the band. You get to be a cello complimenting a bass player, be a steel drum player riffing off the drummer, be an oboe player putting a theme or melody above the choir, be the violin that sings part of the melody with the lead vocalist - what fun. Don't be a competing piano player - what's the point in that?
Verrrrrry strong first post! Thanks so much and welcome dasher! :)
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play loud and drown out the guitars !!!!lol
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I hated being the second keyboard player. I had to follow the lead keyboardist and it was just a headache. He played a lot of "altered" chords, so our chords were always clashing. Even the simplest songs became unrecognizable. I was so glad when the church promoted me to lead keyboardist.
I understand you. Last week I had to stop playing for 2 songs because the lead was playing stuff I couldn't understand and was throwing off the singing.
However, I love backing. I 've never considered myself to be a lead. I rarely back up with brass or strings- I feel that the other sounds on the keyboard are there to be used, so I try to sound different. The pan flute is a great instrument to enhance a song [slow or fast]. The feedback guitar/ distorted guitar is also fun to back with for some songs [slower songs]. The pizzicato sound gives a classical feel to songs. I also listen to Jimmy Swaggart/ Gaithers type of music, so I find myself backing with the accordion/ harmonica for some songs with a bluesy/ shuffle feel to them- that adds a great dimension.
I'm very comfortable backing because I learnt to play for the sheer pleasure of it, and to help out at church when required, not to be on the lead. I even prefer that people lead in singing and I follow them.
Like most have said, the key for having more players is not so that each player shows how much they can do, but so that:
1) Each player does less; while
2) More harmonies are brought into the song/ music
ultimately, this should take the song to the next level, not cause a clash.
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I love the responses that everyone has contributed.