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Gospel Instruments => General Music Hangout => Topic started by: 4hisglory on May 29, 2008, 10:15:04 AM

Title: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 4hisglory on May 29, 2008, 10:15:04 AM
A much talked about subject buuuuuutttt.......

Would you consider a transposer, a real musicians??  Yes or No??  Explain your answer.

My answer is 'No', because you are mainly tricking people into believe you can do something you really aren't doing.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on May 29, 2008, 10:35:33 AM
I cosign your no. I think Transposers are nothing but godless, idol-worshiping heathens who deserve to be caused tremendous physical harm. You are tricking people and most importantly yourself. I don't even know where my transpose button is. If i ever find it i will break it off the board and find a transposer and ram it down his/ her throat.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on May 29, 2008, 12:41:02 PM
I can't say they aren't musicians.  You have all kinds of skill levels but if you can play, even if only in one key, I can't take that away from you.  Granted transposers are quite limited, but they are still musicians to me. 
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: rayjohnson83 on May 29, 2008, 12:46:21 PM
I can't say they aren't musicians.  You have all kinds of skill levels but if you can play, even if only in one key, I can't take that away from you.  Granted transposers are quite limited, but they are still musicians to me. 
COSIGN!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on May 29, 2008, 12:52:23 PM
Yes and no.

Yes- see midi's answer + I think God would rather use a transposer with a heart for worship, than a "beast" with a bad attitude and a poor relationship with Relationship with him.
 

No- If you've been playing piano for 5, 10, 20 years, and you cant sit down on a real piano or organ and play in whatever key is thrown at you, then you evidently dont take playing seriously
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: rayjohnson83 on May 29, 2008, 12:59:10 PM
Yes and no.

Yes- see midi's answer + I think God would rather use a transposer with a heart for worship, than a "beast" with a bad attitude and a poor relationship with Relationship with him.
 


No- If you've been playing piano for 5, 10, 20 years, and you cant sit down on a real piano or organ and play in whatever key is thrown at you, then you evidently dont take playing seriously

good answer, alot of people need to remember that its all about glorify God. Thats what Im learning as well. Im finish playing to turn ninjas head. what good is ur playing, if God doesnt get the glory out of it?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 4hisglory on May 29, 2008, 12:59:26 PM
I can't say they aren't musicians.  You have all kinds of skill levels but if you can play, even if only in one key, I can't take that away from you.  Granted transposers are quite limited, but they are still musicians to me. 

"To me", someone that only plays in on key, is different from someone that transposes.  If you play in one key, fine but when you hit that transpose button, you are starting to deceive people into do something you really can't do.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Steelpulz on May 29, 2008, 01:02:47 PM
Somewhat :)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on May 29, 2008, 01:03:02 PM
"To me", someone that only plays in on key, is different from someone that transposes.  If you play in one key, fine but when you hit that transpose button, you are starting to deceive people into do something you really can't do.

That all depends on your motives as a musician. Not everbody is playing in order make an impression on others. If they are playing soley for God and themselves, then they arent decieving anyone.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on May 29, 2008, 01:45:08 PM
That all depends on your motives as a musician. Not everbody is playing in order make an impression on others. If they are playing soley for God and themselves, then they arent decieving anyone.
True, context and motive is important.  If you transpose to get out of a jam but your intent is to be fluent in all keys, then I don't have a problem with that.  Honestly, I don't have a problem with those that are cool with transposing.  It doesn't affect me and my musical goals.  I have more issues with "producers" that sequence things they can't play than I do with some guy transposing.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: DaNatiMaestro on May 29, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
I can't say they aren't musicians.  You have all kinds of skill levels but if you can play, even if only in one key, I can't take that away from you.  Granted transposers are quite limited, but they are still musicians to me. 

COSIGN times 2!!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: chevonee on May 29, 2008, 01:47:31 PM
Yes and no.

Yes- see midi's answer + I think God would rather use a transposer with a heart for worship, than a "beast" with a bad attitude and a poor relationship with Relationship with him.  

No- If you've been playing piano for 5, 10, 20 years, and you cant sit down on a real piano or organ and play in whatever key is thrown at you, then you evidently dont take playing seriously
CO-SIGN!!!!!!

There are musicians who can play in every key frontwards and backwards but their ATTITUDES are AWFUL. They have no character and absolutely no INTEGRITY what so ever...if you ask me they're faking just as bad as the transposer is :-\.  Having said that though, I don't hate on someone who's just starting out and really have no choice. I was basically pushed into playing because we didn't have anyone else...over the years I begin to like it and thus started to learn to play in every key.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on May 29, 2008, 02:57:24 PM
Would you consider a transposer, a real musicians??  Yes or No??  Explain your answer.

Since this is a question geared toward the individual to answer for themselves, yall already know what I'm gonna say:  REAL MUSICIANS PLAY IN EVERY KEY!!!

So, to answer the question, transposers are not REAL musicians.  They are still "musicians" to some degree, but outside of their key, they are "fakers".  In the past I've said that transposers aren't musicians at all, but I have to take that one back.

The way I approached this question is with attitude, heart, behavior, and all that stuff aside.  I looked strictly at playing ability.  Like 4hisglory said, if u can play in only one key and u do just that, then u are in fact a REAL musician, who at that particular point in time can only play in one key.  As soon as u hit dat T-button, u cross the line into the "faker" category for that particular key.  Does that make sense to anyone?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 4hisglory on May 29, 2008, 02:59:46 PM
I have more issues with "producers" that sequence things they can't play than I do with some guy transposing.

Is that what producers suppose to do?  A long time ago, I saw an interview where Doc Dre said he was scared to learn to play an instrument because he thought it would mess him up (but I think he eventually learned).
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on May 30, 2008, 12:31:57 AM

Would you consider a transposer, a real musicians??....My answer is 'No', because you are mainly tricking people into believe you can do something you really aren't doing.

Although it is better to be able to play in all keys, if a musician can only play in three keys, he or she is still a real musician, simply because, being a musician is not an (either/or) or (all or nothing) deal, but rather dynamic varying levels & degrees of playing.

Some people can't play in ANY key. That would be consider someone who is not a "real musician". But someone who can play in 8 keys or 2 keys or 12 keys, "IS" a real musician - just on various levels.

Oh, and to take it one step further:

1) You might have someone who can play in all 12 keys, but no matter what you hear that person play, and no matter what key, they still don't seem to "move" you with their playing.

2) However, you might find somebody who can play in four keys, but nearly EVERYTIME you hear that person play, they always seem to "move" you.

Now what?  ?/?.....do you say that player #2 is NOT a real musician simply because he/she can play all that wonderful, "moving" music in only four keys?

Well...maybe he can only play in four keys, but nearly everytime he plays, he "successfully communicates" through the instrument.  And because of that, i would indeed call him a "real" musician, (perhaps with limits), but nonetheless "real".

Finally, transposing is not "deception", but rather "limitations". He's not transposing to "pull one over on the people", but rather because that's the only current skill option he has.

I mean, exactly how much does the listener really care if you successfully played the song, but each time you touched a Gb, it sounded like an Ab?  I'm not so sure that they're gonna hold their hands over their mouths; gasp and say: "how DARE he!"  :o

Bottom line:


8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on May 30, 2008, 05:50:42 AM
I got you T, Seemunny & Midi..
 :)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on May 30, 2008, 06:24:15 AM
The only reason musicians cant play in every key, is because they dont practice in every key.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: rador on May 30, 2008, 06:46:38 AM
there are some who play in all keys but don't make too much of a sense as those playing in like 4 keys only.
well to those who transpose i believe its time they start trying other keys, i think it's laziness
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on May 30, 2008, 07:52:37 AM
there are some who play in all keys but don't make too much of a sense as those playing in like 4 keys only.
well to those who transpose i believe its time they start trying other keys, i think it's laziness

The only reason musicians cant play in every key, is because they dont practice in every key.


Precisely..

Rador, you made a point that some people might play in all the 12 keys but "not make much sense..."..
Let me start off...If it's about comparison, I'd say go deeper than just saying this one makes "sense"..btw, I think you wanted to say they don't play a piece as well / as advanced as the person playing in the fewer keys? :-\

Ok, if that's the point, I'd say look at the history of how long each party has been playing for..Lemme not look any further than myself:
--It is grossly unfair for the congregation to throw unbecoming remarks at me just because I don't play some fancy runs & licks for every song just because so & so plays those..If we take a look at so & so, s/he's been playing for over a decade & can play in, say 4 keys, & me in my 1 month of playing at church I can play the songs ok (without the spices the people are used to).

So in any way (MHO), I'd rather go with that some1 who has shown a great desire to learn & develop in all the keys than the guy who's played around the different eras..

Yes, when you have an important functional you want the "4 keys" guy to play for you because it will sound better, but given that the "12 keys" guy is humble & has a good attitude generally, I can bet my all that that person can go very far in their playing & after a decade, they will sound way more polished than the "4keys" guy..

I was fortunate to be at a church where we had both these players, except that they both had 10 years in their playing..1 only plays in 1 key (very good & travels all over..they love his style) & then 1 who plays in all (he was just as good..moreover, he could play more genres of music other than gospel & was good at many other things...

My point is, the more "keys" / scales you learn, the more the relations of the notes in the board become a clear to you & you are empowered to play "that & more" since...blahblahblah..


A simple example is a song that modulates up a whole step & then modulates down a half step..or modulates by 4 whole steps..when will you get the time to hit the transpose button 4 times & still sound good ::)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on May 30, 2008, 08:06:19 AM
My point is, the more "keys" / scales you learn, the more the relations of the notes in the board become a clear to you & you are empowered to play "that & more" since...blahblahblah..


A simple example is a song that modulates up a whole step & then modulates down a half step..or modulates by 4 whole steps..when will you get the time to hit the transpose button 4 times & still sound good ::)

Exactly.

Ithink I said this before, but, the location of the notes are very important to me. I wouldnt want to reach for an Ab and hear a C.

And when you are backing up a preacher who modulates a lot, they dont always go in half steps. Sometimes they might go down 3 or 4 keys. It will take a transposer a few seconds to transpose and find the new key. A good musician will be able to hear the change in an instant, and wont break the flow.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on May 30, 2008, 08:13:38 AM
Good.

So we are all in agreement that transposers are evil mud-guzzlers?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjonathan02 on May 30, 2008, 08:24:08 AM
A simple example is a song that modulates up a whole step & then modulates down a half step..or modulates by 4 whole steps..when will you get the time to hit the transpose button 4 times & still sound good ::)

What song does that?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on May 30, 2008, 08:25:30 AM
What song does that?

A song he made up. ::) :)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on May 30, 2008, 08:48:06 AM

I think I said this before, but, the location of the notes are very important to me. I wouldnt want to reach for an Ab and hear a C.
Musicians that have a good sense of pitch or perfect pitch tend to have that issue.  I had to transpose one playing for a wedding.  The groom asked me the night before.  I knew the song but I had no idea the singer could not sing it in the proper key.  It felt really weird (kinda sounded weird too) but I got through it.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on May 30, 2008, 08:55:02 AM
Musicians that have a good sense of pitch or perfect pitch tend to have that issue.  I had to transpose one playing for a wedding.  The groom asked me the night before.  I knew the song but I had no idea the singer could not sing it in the proper key.  It felt really weird (kinda sounded weird too) but I got through it.

I've played on keyboards that sombody else left transposed, and I imedietly knew something was wrong.
I think I have perfect pitch only when I'm at the keyboard.(if that makes sense)


Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on May 30, 2008, 09:01:40 AM
I've played on keyboards that sombody else left transposed, and I imedietly knew something was wrong.
I think I have perfect pitch only when I'm at the keyboard.(if that makes sense)


None whatsoever.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on May 30, 2008, 09:21:48 AM

I think I have perfect pitch only when I'm at the keyboard.(if that makes sense)



Maybe you have relative pitch.
I hate when people leave keyboards transposed.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on May 30, 2008, 09:40:54 AM
Good.

So we are all in agreement that transposers are evil mud-guzzlers?

That's just you & Fenix my man :D :D

Maybe you have relative pitch.
I hate when people leave keyboards transposed.

It sounds weird when the board is left transposed..& Fenix, you do have some relative pitch..I have very little of it :(

What song does that?

There is a guy by the nickname of Dazza..ok, he didn't go up with those giant moves, but he did actually go up & then down...
I have 1 of his Amazing Grace midis where he does that..If you are not really attentive, you will not catch it, But I caught it because I was trying to learn the song his way..& at 1 point the Van Basco piano is on all black notes, white notes the next, then all black notes..

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on May 30, 2008, 09:47:12 AM
I admit that i have developed relative pitch to some extent. I can also hear chord qualities pretty good. For instance, i KNOW a maj 7 from a maj 9 and so on. I can recognize a 13th chord anywhere.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on May 30, 2008, 12:18:38 PM
Finally, transposing is not "deception", but rather "limitations". He's not transposing to "pull one over on the people", but rather because that's the only current skill option he has.

Now, this is where I disagree wit u.  In essence, I believe a person who uses transpose is trying to "pull one over on the people".  If you can't play in a certain key that someone is singing in, the "real" thing to do would be to not play.  Even if the song has to be sung acapella, the musician is still being real because he/she can't play in that key.

Now, that's the "real" thing to do, IMO.  Of course, in order to keep the service going, most will indeed hit that button.  Just realize that when that happens, u have crossed over into the "faker" category for that one instance.

It's like saying if a person goes to the store and buys a cake (or any kind of food), then serves it to some people claiming that they baked (cooked) it.  Now, if no one notices the difference and assumes they made the cake (or food item), does that make them a real cook?  I liken this to a transposer, they are non-verbally saying that they can in fact play in the key at hand, when they really just hit a button.  Ya feel me?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjonathan02 on May 30, 2008, 12:22:30 PM
Now, this is where I disagree wit u.  In essence, I believe a person who uses transpose is trying to "pull one over on the people".  If you can't play in a certain key that someone is singing in, the "real" thing to do would be to not play.  Even if the song has to be sung acapella, the musician is still being real because he/she can't play in that key.

Now, that's the "real" thing to do, IMO.  Of course, in order to keep the service going, most will indeed hit that button.  Just realize that when that happens, u have crossed over into the "faker" category for that one instance.

It's like saying if a person goes to the store and buys a cake (or any kind of food), then serves it to some people claiming that they baked (cooked) it.  Now, if no one notices the difference and assumes they made the cake (or food item), does that make them a real cook?  I liken this to a transposer, they are non-verbally saying that they can in fact play in the key at hand, when they really just hit a button.  Ya feel me?

I understand what you're trying to say. I simply disagree.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jonesl78 on May 30, 2008, 12:37:18 PM
If you can't play in a certain key that someone is singing in, the "real" thing to do would be to not play.  Even if the song has to be sung acapella, the musician is still being real because he/she can't play in that key.


Man, you betta hit that button, then go home and practice. This remind of the Dave chappel skit, " keep it real."
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on May 30, 2008, 12:41:56 PM
Now, this is where I disagree wit u.  In essence, I believe a person who uses transpose is trying to "pull one over on the people".  If you can't play in a certain key that someone is singing in, the "real" thing to do would be to not play.  Even if the song has to be sung acapella, the musician is still being real because he/she can't play in that key.

Now, that's the "real" thing to do, IMO.  Of course, in order to keep the service going, most will indeed hit that button.  Just realize that when that happens, u have crossed over into the "faker" category for that one instance.

It's like saying if a person goes to the store and buys a cake (or any kind of food), then serves it to some people claiming that they baked (cooked) it.  Now, if no one notices the difference and assumes they made the cake (or food item), does that make them a real cook?  I liken this to a transposer, they are non-verbally saying that they can in fact play in the key at hand, when they really just hit a button.  Ya feel me?
And again I say,  it's really not that serious IMO.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on May 30, 2008, 12:45:29 PM
Man, you betta hit that button, then go home and practice. This remind of the Dave chappel skit, " keep it real."

But sometimes keepin it real goes wrong.

And again I say,  it's really not that serious IMO.


Exactly what I was gonna say.


Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjonathan02 on May 30, 2008, 12:45:55 PM
And again I say,  it's really not that serious IMO.

Exactly.   :-\
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on May 30, 2008, 07:37:01 PM
I understand what you're trying to say. I simply disagree.

That's fine.

And again I say,  it's really not that serious IMO.

That's fine as well.  It's very serious to me though.  I take everything about music more seriously than your average musician, so of course my views are gonna clash wit a lot of yall.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on May 31, 2008, 01:07:00 AM
That's fine.

That's fine as well.  It's very serious to me though.  I take everything about music more seriously than your average musician, so of course my views are gonna clash wit a lot of yall.
No clash here.  You'll never hear me say it's cool to transpose.  I just don't have the energy to bash those that do it.  I'm much more interested in developing my own skills. 
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on May 31, 2008, 01:28:45 AM
Now, this is where I disagree wit u.  In essence, I believe a person who uses transpose is trying to "pull one over on the people".  If you can't play in a certain key that someone is singing in, the "real" thing to do would be to not play.  Even if the song has to be sung acapella, the musician is still being real because he/she can't play in that key.

Now, that's the "real" thing to do, IMO.  Of course, in order to keep the service going, most will indeed hit that button.  Just realize that when that happens, u have crossed over into the "faker" category for that one instance.

Again, if a musician can't play in a certain key, and then uses the transpose button, i don't believe his intention is to "pull one over on the people" but rather more directly: "i can't play in this key yall!!".

He can't play in that key, and THAT'S his reason! Perhaps he "should" be able to play in ALL keys, but he just can't (at least at that time).

However, if he finds himself with the option of:

1) Don't play, because "being real wit it" tells me not to...so they'll just have to sing a cappella...

versus:

2) Press the tranpose button and play "until i can learn how to play in all keys"...


To choose option #1 is not only affecting YOU, but the people as well, and perhaps inadvertently, you would have opted to shortchange the service due to personal ego.

Option #2 seems to be the more "Solomonic" thing to do. Because it "successfully takes care of" both problems, meaning:

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on May 31, 2008, 02:59:40 AM
Precisely..

Rador, you made a point that some people might play in all the 12 keys but "not make much sense..."..
Let me start off...If it's about comparison, I'd say go deeper than just saying this one makes "sense"..btw, I think you wanted to say they don't play a piece as well / as advanced as the person playing in the fewer keys? :-\

So in any way (MHO), I'd rather go with that some1 who has shown a great desire to learn & develop in all the keys than the guy who's played around the different eras..

Yes, when you have an important functional you want the "4 keys" guy to play for you because it will sound better, but given that the "12 keys" guy is humble & has a good attitude generally, I can bet my all that that person can go very far in their playing & after a decade, they will sound way more polished than the "4keys" guy...etc etc.

My point is, the more "keys" / scales you learn, the more the relations of the notes in the board become a clear to you & you are empowered to play "that & more" since...blahblahblah..

A simple example is a song that modulates up a whole step & then modulates down a half step..or modulates by 4 whole steps..when will you get the time to hit the transpose button 4 times & still sound good ::)

Exactly.

Ithink I said this before, but, the location of the notes are very important to me. I wouldnt want to reach for an Ab and hear a C.
And when you are backing up a preacher who modulates a lot, they dont always go in half steps. Sometimes they might go down 3 or 4 keys. It will take a transposer a few seconds to transpose and find the new key. A good musician will be able to hear the change in an instant, and wont break the flow.

All valid points! However, the original question was not "if it's better to be very good in only a few keys vs good or pretty good in all 12 keys". But rather: "is someone who plays in less than 12 keys, thus have to use the transposer a "real" musician. I say yes, but with a transposer's touch. But that ain't no "pimp cane", that's a crutch.

Musicians, for you own sakes, "learn to play in all 12 keys!", and for those who refuse, you just won't experience the blessing that playing in all 12 keys will bring you. 8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 4hisglory on May 31, 2008, 08:36:21 AM
Now, this is where I disagree wit u.  In essence, I believe a person who uses transpose is trying to "pull one over on the people".  If you can't play in a certain key that someone is singing in, the "real" thing to do would be to not play.  Even if the song has to be sung acapella, the musician is still being real because he/she can't play in that key.

Now, that's the "real" thing to do, IMO.  Of course, in order to keep the service going, most will indeed hit that button.  Just realize that when that happens, u have crossed over into the "faker" category for that one instance.

It's like saying if a person goes to the store and buys a cake (or any kind of food), then serves it to some people claiming that they baked (cooked) it.  Now, if no one notices the difference and assumes they made the cake (or food item), does that make them a real cook?  I liken this to a transposer, they are non-verbally saying that they can in fact play in the key at hand, when they really just hit a button.  Ya feel me?

A-men but this is basically how our "folks" roll.  We set our standards so low.  We feel we can't obtain the real thing so we fake it.  Musicians transposing,  people walking around with fancy cars, jewelery, house... but being broke, etc.

Twenty years ago, we wouldn't even be having this discussion sense churches had  "pianos" that people had to learn on.

I always find it funny how people say "T-block, can I get hel p with this, T-block you are a beast, T-block, I want to be like you", but then when he tell us how get there, we don't listen and cover it up with "I'm doing the Lord's work".
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjjoe on May 31, 2008, 10:07:56 AM
yes they are real musicians but the question should be are they a complete musician. I agree with both sides of views, but lets try to disect what is a real musician and what is a complete musician. A real musician is like someone says a person who actually plays and not doing the sequencing and layering. Now a complete musician is a musician who knows how to play in all key, know how to play sheet music, chord vocabulary is large, can disect theory, and other stuff. Now a person who use the transpose button is not trying to deceive the other people, they are trying to help run the service. Like the bible says if your Ox is in the ditch will you get it out or will you let it stays there. We need to not try to critize the people who use the button instead try to encourage them to not use it. It like saying is on-line students are real students. they are real students but they have limitations such as they have alot of responsibilites same with the musician they want to learn to play in all keys but they have alot of other responsibilities in their life, or having a hard time in their life so don't critize them. Here is a question is a person who play by a fake book is a real musician?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on May 31, 2008, 10:21:37 AM
To choose option #1 is not only affecting YOU, but the people as well, and perhaps inadvertently, you would have opted to shortchange the service due to personal ego.

Yeah, I already tackled that issue.  I said most people will indeed hit the button to keep the service going forth. I understand where everyone is coming from, just difference of opinion.  Just so u know, I will not publicly embarrass someone who transposes, I just keep it to myself and KIM.

I always find it funny how people say "T-block, can I get hel p with this, T-block you are a beast, T-block, I want to be like you", but then when he tell us how get there, we don't listen and cover it up with "I'm doing the Lord's work".

U can say dat again man.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on May 31, 2008, 10:22:48 AM
Here is a question is a person who play by a fake book is a real musician?

Ummm...I would say yeah.  Even though it's a "fake" book, it has real music in it to be played.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjjoe on May 31, 2008, 10:50:47 AM
But if u put a real sheet music in front of them they can not play it.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Ladyn on May 31, 2008, 11:32:17 AM
Well, my first response is NO! But I gotta hand it to you if you can use that button and play in C and hear Ab. I can NOT do that! 

As I think about this issue, I am reminded of my years of playing the trumpet.  I could NOT fake it at all if I did not know something.  I played in jazz band, and if I had not known my scales I would not have been able to play in that band.  There was no transpose button or attachment for my trumpet, but I worked hard and practiced for hours to learn to play.  My band director did not allow us to get by without knowing our scales, technique, how to read music, and how to function as part of the jazz band.  The drummer couldn't fake it, nor could any other instrument!

So, how fair is it that as a keyboardist because of technology one can essentially fake through a service, but no other instrument can?  Is the keyboardist at least trying to learn all keys, or is this just good enough for them? If it is the latter, then it is a sad, sad state that person is in.  I personally would not fake because sooner or later you will be exposed for all to see, and that is more distracting than choosing not to  play because you don't know the song or the key.  JMHO
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on May 31, 2008, 11:45:38 AM
Yeah.  I think transposers can be considered musicians.  Personally, I think transpose should be used in until a pianist learns how to modulate as opposed to just being content with using transpose.  Relying on transpose like that can really limit a person when they sit at a piano/keyboard that doesn't have transpose. 
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on June 01, 2008, 12:41:54 AM
A-men but this is basically how our "folks" roll.  We set our standards so low.  We feel we can't obtain the real thing so we fake it.

I always find it funny how people say "T-block, can I get hel p with this, T-block you are a beast, T-block, I want to be like you", but then when he tell us how get there, we don't listen and cover it up with "I'm doing the Lord's work".

Ummmm...i don't think you get that message, from my paticular posts. lol I was very "pacific".

he "should" be able to play in ALL keys...

...learn how to play in all 12 keys (if you so desire, of which you should). 8)

"is someone who plays in less than 12 keys, thus have to use the transposer a "real" musician??? I say yes, but with a transposer's touch. But that ain't no "pimp cane", that's a crutch.

Musicians, for you own sakes, "learn to play in all 12 keys!", and for those who refuse, you just won't experience the blessing that playing in all 12 keys will bring you. 8)

Transpose Buttons are a "crutch"...but you still can't take away the "musicianhood" of the players who use them. They didn't just wake up one morning, and magically know how to play in all 8 of those keys - they had to practice too! lol

We ALL have some limitations (unless we know it all!). Some bigger than others.

So, the most you can say about a "transposer" is:

"Yeah, they're real musicians, but with one of the more unacceptable limitations compared to a 12 key player, Which They SHOULD Correct Immediately!" 8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: chevonee on June 01, 2008, 02:57:34 AM
A-men but this is basically how our "folks" roll.  We set our standards so low.  We feel we can't obtain the real thing so we fake it.  Musicians transposing,  people walking around with fancy cars, jewelery, house... but being broke, etc.

Twenty years ago, we wouldn't even be having this discussion sense churches had  "pianos" that people had to learn on.

I always find it funny how people say "T-block, can I get hel p with this, T-block you are a beast, T-block, I want to be like you", but then when he tell us how get there, we don't listen and cover it up with "I'm doing the Lord's work".
Tell us how you really feel Sir...LOL!!! Its tight but its right.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 4hisglory on June 01, 2008, 10:55:53 PM
Ummmm...i don't think you get that message, from my paticular posts. lol I was very "pacific".

Transpose Buttons are a "crutch"...but you still can't take away the "musicianhood" of the players who use them. They didn't just wake up one morning, and magically know how to play in all 8 of those keys - they had to practice too! lol

We ALL have some limitations (unless we know it all!). Some bigger than others.

So, the most you can say about a "transposer" is:

"Yeah, they're real musicians, but with one of the more unacceptable limitations compared to a 12 key player, Which They SHOULD Correct Immediately!" 8)

Should Marion Jones been stripped of her Gold medals she received in the Olympics  for admitting to use steroids?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on June 02, 2008, 12:36:35 AM
Should Marion Jones been stripped of her Gold medals she received in the Olympics  for admitting to use steroids?

"Yes", but why?...Because it's against the rules to use steroids in the Olympics when competing against other athletes.

Stevie Wonder using a transposer in church, because he can only play in 11 keys, but the song was in that 12th key is not against any church rules, and nor is Stevie competing against anyone in worship service.

So to say "Stevie Wonder is not a real musician just because of this scenario" (hypothetical example)......Mike Tyson tells me that's "ludicrist!" lol

Stevie is still as bad (meaning good), as we all know, he just has a "limitation" in one key, so he used the transpose button that Sunday and blessed somebody. But Berry Gordy DID tease him afterwards about learning to play in that 12th key! lol 8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 02, 2008, 12:56:09 AM

Stevie Wonder using a transposer in church.................
(hypothetical example)

It better be hypothetical :D


But thats a great example. Would stevie not be a real musician IF he couldnt play in one key?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on June 02, 2008, 01:04:55 AM
It better be hypothetical :D


But thats a great example. Would stevie not be a real musician IF he couldnt play in one key?

Trust me, it's hypothetical like a MUG!  :D :D :D

ty brotha! 8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on June 02, 2008, 07:27:34 AM
Good Morning folks. :)

I saw a post up there about using fakebooks and i want to say for the record, that using fakebooks i perfectly legal. Fake books have the melody but not the full music on them. They have the suggested chords on top of the melody notes.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjjoe on June 02, 2008, 10:24:21 AM
I was reading the post that says about the fakebook, and I disagree because they are about the same level as yall says about the transposer because if you put a real sheet music in front of them and they rely only playing by the fakebook then they can't play the real piece. If you say it is ok to play a fakebook then it must be ok to use the transpose key. I not disagreeing to other people about learn to play in all keys, but they are real musicians as the people who play by the fakebook.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 02, 2008, 10:33:04 AM
I was reading the post that says about the fakebook, and I disagree because they are about the same level as yall says about the transposer because if you put a real sheet music in front of them and they rely only playing by the fakebook then they can't play the real piece. If you say it is ok to play a fakebook then it must be ok to use the transpose key. I not disagreeing to other people about learn to play in all keys, but they are real musicians as the people who play by the fakebook.

I agree. If transposing is wrong then so is asking for the chords for a hymn. If you are a real musician Buy a hymn book, Learn the notes, either learn to read music, or transcribe them into chords yourself.
I'm not knocking everybody who ask for chords, but those who ask for chord to simple hymns that are in the hymn book without atempting to learn the notes on a music staff. Choir and P+W songs, are a OK.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on June 02, 2008, 10:38:13 AM
But if u put a real sheet music in front of them they can not play it.

O.K., sheet music reading and playing by ear are 2 totally different things that shouldn't be compared to each other at all.  Now, like I said before music in a "fake" book is just as real as it is in a real music book.  The only difference is the "fake" book has easier versions for those who can't read the full version as well.

There are tons of real musicians who can play in all 12 keys but never learned to read music.  The issue here is transposing, not reading music.  Reading music is a whole other topic that has nothing to do with anything here.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjjoe on June 02, 2008, 10:52:07 AM
I disagree because u should be able to it all
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on June 02, 2008, 10:58:41 AM
I disagree because u should be able to it all

You should, only if u know about it.  There are many musicians who don't even know about sheet music or music theory, but they can kill it in all keys.  U still missing da point of this particular topic man.  I'll take a word u used ealier, a COMPLETE musician should be able to do it all.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjjoe on June 02, 2008, 10:58:53 AM
Also sheet music does go together with by ear because the same patterns in sheet music u can by ear on radio etc
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 4hisglory on June 02, 2008, 10:59:34 AM
O.K., sheet music reading and playing by ear are 2 totally different things that shouldn't be compared to each other at all.  Now, like I said before music in a "fake" book is just as real as it is in a real music book.  The only difference is the "fake" book has easier versions for those who can't read the full version as well.

There are tons of real musicians who can play in all 12 keys but never learned to read music.  The issue here is transposing, not reading music.  Reading music is a whole other topic that has nothing to do with anything here.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking.  These skills are mutually exclusive.

Playing by ear
Playing by sheet music
Playing by fake books

All different things, just like

Playing Jazz
Playing Gospel
Play Blues
Playing Classical

Just because you can do one, does mean you can do it all.

When you can do it all, thats when you become a Master Musician.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on June 02, 2008, 11:04:35 AM
Also sheet music does go together with by ear because the same patterns in sheet music u can by ear on radio etc

They are still two totally different skills.  When u read sheet music, you are using your EYES as the main determining factor of the music.  You ears help to reinforce what your eyes are seeing.  When u play by ear, you are using your EARS as the main determining factor of your music.  Those 2 can't be compared in any way man.  Even if they use the same patterns, the 2 methods are totally different.

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjjoe on June 02, 2008, 11:12:52 AM
The question is a person who use the transpose key are real musician and the answer is they are as real as the person who use a fakebook
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on June 02, 2008, 11:15:48 AM
The question is a person who use the transpose key are real musician and the answer is they are as real as the person who use a fakebook

Then your answer is flawed man.  That's not even an acceptable comparison, let alone a good one.  As soon as u realize that fakebooks contain real music, you will understand.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 4hisglory on June 02, 2008, 11:21:08 AM
Then your answer is flawed man.  That's not even an acceptable comparison, let alone a good one.  As soon as u realize that fakebooks contain real music, you will understand.

Yeah, the answer is very flawed.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjjoe on June 02, 2008, 11:24:19 AM
I am not flaw because you said that transposer are not real musician because they are trying to deceive the congregation well a person who use a fakebook doing the same thing because in a real situation if you put a piece of a real sheet music without the name of the chord on top and etc they cannot do it because they relied on the fakebook. If a pastor try to hire someone to play the original piece of music and they say they can play the original piece of music (sheet music) and when it is time to peform they cannot do it because they were use to playing by fakebook. Look I am not trying to dispute not using the transpose key but saying they are not real musician is wrong and disrespectful. I think you are a great musician and not out of disrepect trying to cause conflict.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on June 02, 2008, 11:34:52 AM
Ahhhhh the debate continues.  There's only one person that I'm concerned about being a real musician.  ME!!   
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 02, 2008, 12:16:51 PM
Then your answer is flawed man.  That's not even an acceptable comparison, let alone a good one.  As soon as u realize that fakebooks contain real music, you will understand.


Your answer is flawed :D


Fake books do not contain real music. It is only 1/4 real.


This is fake
(http://www.notation.com/images/HomePageScoreFakeBook.gif)

This is real music

(http://www.virtualsheetmusic.com/images/first_pages/BIG/Bach/JesuPfFirst_BIG.gif)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on June 02, 2008, 02:50:03 PM
Your answer is flawed :D


Fake books do not contain real music. It is only 1/4 real.

Under13,  you are guilty of copyright violations.  How do you plea?   ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 02, 2008, 02:54:55 PM
Under13,  you are guilty of copyright violations.  How do you plea?   ;D


No Comment. Speak to my Lawyer.   
(http://www.jacoby-and-meyers.com/images/logo_alt_ny.gif)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on June 02, 2008, 02:57:09 PM
I am not flaw because you said that transposer are not real musician because they are trying to deceive the congregation

I never said any of that.  You are not flawed, your statement is.  Plus, I said a transposer is a real musician, they are just fake in the key that transposed to.  There is a difference.  I'm not trying to cause conflict, I'm trying to get the right information out.  When you've gone through music school and learned the correct way, then u get people saying all kinds of weird things, it's your job to set the record straight.  

Just like in any other profession, whether u are a cook, bible scholar, doctor, lawyer, etc. you want to make sure the correct information is presented so that no one is left in the dark about how things really work.

Your answer is flawed :D


Fake books do not contain real music. It is only 1/4 real.

Looks like you are missing my point as well.  What I mean by real music is there are notes and chord symbols there.  Whether or not it is like the original piece is irrelevant.  The music in a fakebook is very much real and can be played just like the music in the original piece is very much real and can be played.  Does that make more sense?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on June 02, 2008, 03:11:51 PM
Yo T, don't even sweat it man.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 02, 2008, 03:15:04 PM
Yo T, don't even sweat it man.

i sure aint sweatin it no mo. We all have different opinions. We all think that we are correct. No point in us trying to change each others opinions. I agree to disagree
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on June 02, 2008, 04:43:23 PM
Your answer is flawed :D


Fake books do not contain real music. It is only 1/4 real.


This is fake
([url]http://www.notation.com/images/HomePageScoreFakeBook.gif[/url])



Yeah!  *hides her beginner books*
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 4hisglory on June 02, 2008, 04:50:08 PM
I am not flaw because you said that transposer are not real musician because they are trying to deceive the congregation well a person who use a fakebook doing the same thing because in a real situation if you put a piece of a real sheet music without the name of the chord on top and etc they cannot do it because they relied on the fakebook. If a pastor try to hire someone to play the original piece of music and they say they can play the original piece of music (sheet music) and when it is time to peform they cannot do it because they were use to playing by fakebook. Look I am not trying to dispute not using the transpose key but saying they are not real musician is wrong and disrespectful. I think you are a great musician and not out of disrepect trying to cause conflict.

So, according to your example, people that 'Play by Ear' aren't real musicians because they can't play sheet music?  I think you may be on the wrong site. :)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 02, 2008, 05:01:40 PM
Yeah!  *hides her beginner books*


nothin wrong with beginner books. but I think a lot of teachers use material that is  way too easy. If the notes in the book look like that, then it is too easy.

I suggest using this book to learn how to read music. (with a teacher)
http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Aaron-Piano-Course-Lessons/dp/0898988551



Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjjoe on June 02, 2008, 05:40:26 PM
like Under13 say let just end this topic because you are going to get different opinion. We are brother and sisters in christ and we are in different sometimes heated conversation but it is time to mend fences or the wolf (the emeny) going to draw confusion in the camp and this thing of helping people will be diminished. The Bible stated blessed are the peacemaker for they will inherit the earth. Every musicians got different weakness even the pros got weakness in their playing, etc but Romans 15:1 says the strong outha bear the infirmities of the weak, and this website and other website are trying to do this. Lets be stronger brothers and Sisters in christ because god and Jesus is watching our actions. If you use the transpose we and god and jesus understands, but it is time to grow as a musician. We need to get off milk and to start eating meat meaning we once upon a time resort to the transpose but its time to grow in more keys to be a better musician remember we want to encourage you not offend to you. Love and Kindness have I drawn to thee.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on June 02, 2008, 07:44:26 PM
"All hearts and minds clear...", LOL!!!  :D  ;D  :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 02, 2008, 08:29:12 PM
Looks like you are missing my point as well.  What I mean by real music is there are notes and chord symbols there.  Whether or not it is like the original piece is irrelevant.  The music in a fakebook is very much real and can be played just like the music in the original piece is very much real and can be played.  Does that make more sense?

If it is real, then why do they call it a "FAKE Book"?  :D ;)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on June 03, 2008, 12:22:48 AM
Shame! shame! shame! lol

You all ack like you tryin' to get heated and don't even know why! lol

This is very easy yall! This little confusion is no more than "word games/semantics"....not actual "thoughts".

I'll bet anything, that everybody on this post are actually in agreement, but just because of a less than perfect word label, everybody ends up thinking that it's two opposing sides! lol

I am going to attempt to clear this up, and it shouldn't be very difficult at all lol:

1) I would venture to guess that EVERYBODY in this thread agrees that: "musicians should learn to play in EVERY key"
2) I would venture to guess that EVERYBODY in this thread agrees that: "at the moment a musician hits the transpose button, HIS FINGERS ARE NOT PLAYING IN THE "REAL" KEY. Some call it a "fake" KEY, not fake musician, but fake KEY.
3) I would venture to guess that, IF Stevie Wonder could only play in 11 keys, but the song was in the 12th key, so he used the transpose button, there's absolutely NO ONE in this thread that's would prepared to say that Stevie Wonder is NOT a "true or real" musician, despite 11 keys. lol

Whoever steps out on this to disagree, i'm gonna back away from my computer so the lightning bolt don't hit me! 8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: divinemusician on June 03, 2008, 02:18:43 AM
Now, this is where I disagree wit u.  In essence, I believe a person who uses transpose is trying to "pull one over on the people".  If you can't play in a certain key that someone is singing in, the "real" thing to do would be to not play.  Even if the song has to be sung acapella, the musician is still being real because he/she can't play in that key.

Now, that's the "real" thing to do, IMO.  Of course, in order to keep the service going, most will indeed hit that button.  Just realize that when that happens, u have crossed over into the "faker" category for that one instance.

It's like saying if a person goes to the store and buys a cake (or any kind of food), then serves it to some people claiming that they baked (cooked) it.  Now, if no one notices the difference and assumes they made the cake (or food item), does that make them a real cook?  I liken this to a transposer, they are non-verbally saying that they can in fact play in the key at hand, when they really just hit a button.  Ya feel me?

I have to disagree bro...not everybody that "hits the don't hit button" are fakers or trying to pull something over somebody head. after all NON OF US CAME OUT THE WOMB PLAYING ALL KEYS... so you started with one key and i am sure as heck not going to believe you stopped playing when they went to a different key nor didn't believe yourself to be a UP AND COMING MUSICIAN. Just as a basketball player may not know all the tricks in the book, if they play ball, then they are ballers!!! They may not be "professional" but they can ball. I don't consider myself a musician not because I do transpose!!! but because I don't know as much as I think (Key word is I think) I need to know. It has nothing to do with me transposing becaue my desire is not to stay there. my desire is to learn all keys. however in the mist of me learning... if i have to transpose guess what ya girl hittin that buttom proudly and playin those keys proudly in Jesus name. Becasue I don't play to be considered by "people" a musician, I play because of the love I have for music and God. AFter all we all consider David a musician but whos to say he could play in ALL keys.......

unless you know a persons story on why they transpose I think you can't call them a "faker".... because i don't fake I just have not gotten to the point they you guys have. WE all have learning points. now like Under13 said, if you been truly playin for 5,10,15 etc years and you have not taken the time out to learn your musician then thats just SORRY!!! JUST A SORRY I TELL YA.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 03, 2008, 06:16:37 AM
I have to disagree bro...not everybody that "hits the don't hit button" are fakers or trying to pull something over somebody head. after all NON OF US CAME OUT THE WOMB PLAYING ALL KEYS... so you started with one key and i am sure as heck not going to believe you stopped playing when they went to a different key nor didn't believe yourself to be a UP AND COMING MUSICIAN. Just as a basketball player may not know all the tricks in the book, if they play ball, then they are ballers!!! They may not be "professional" but they can ball. I don't consider myself a musician not because I do transpose!!! but because I don't know as much as I think (Key word is I think) I need to know. It has nothing to do with me transposing becaue my desire is not to stay there. my desire is to learn all keys. however in the mist of me learning... if i have to transpose guess what ya girl hittin that buttom proudly and playin those keys proudly in Jesus name. Becasue I don't play to be considered by "people" a musician, I play because of the love I have for music and God. AFter all we all consider David a musician but whos to say he could play in ALL keys.......


I think I said this before, but the only reason people cant play in every key is becaus they dont practic in every key. If you practice every key then you wont need to transpose. It shouldnt take you more than 6 weeks to kick the transpose habbit. Practice 2 keys a week. if you diligently pratice the keys that you arent good in, then you will get better. Trust me, it wll work; a few months go when I first started playng for this church, I was not very good in the key of D. But because they sang almost every song in D, I am now pretty good with D.

Do whatever it takes. If you play well by ear, find songs that are in different keys. If you are into theory, use the number system.  And also learn your scales and the proper fingering in every key. Its not that hard. YOu just have to put in the work. You reap what you sow.

I'm glad that my first keyboard did not have a transpose button, and that I didnt even know about it until I had already learned very key
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjonathan02 on June 03, 2008, 06:48:14 AM
I think I said this before, but the only reason people cant play in every key is becaus they dont practic in every key. If you practice every key then you wont need to transpose. It shouldnt take you more than 6 weeks to kick the transpose habbit. Practice 2 keys a week. if you diligently pratice the keys that you arent good in, then you will get better. Trust me, it wll work; a few months go when I first started playng for this church, I was not very good in the key of D. But because they sang almost every song in D, I am now pretty good with D.

Do whatever it takes. If you play well by ear, find songs that are in different keys. If you are into theory, use the number system.  And also learn your scales and the proper fingering in every key. Its not that hard. YOu just have to put in the work. You reap what you sow.

I'm glad that my first keyboard did not have a transpose button, and that I didnt even know about it until I had already learned very key


What you're saying comes from the "I don't have a family or anyone but me to take care of" approach to music. Which is fine, if one is in that position.


But, I submit, what does one DURING that "6 week" period. Not play at their church.


Musician: Sorry Pastor; I know you'd like me to play for the services. But, I can't because I'm taking this six week crash course in learning all keys.


Pastor:  ?/? :-\


Before you answer, remember, YOU'RE the guy that said that pastors should allow musicians to make mistakes DURING service.  
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 03, 2008, 06:57:13 AM
What you're saying comes from the "I don't have a family or anyone but me to take care of" approach to music. Which is fine, if one is in that position.


But, I submit, what does one DURING that "6 week" period. Not play at their church.


Musician: Sorry Pastor; I know you'd like me to play for the services. But, I can't because I'm taking this six week crash course in learning all keys.


Pastor:  ?/? :-\


Before you answer, remember, YOU'RE the guy that said that pastors should allow musicians to make mistakes DURING service.  

Then do it over 12 or 24 weeks, and only transpose during services and choir rehearsal. There was recently a thread about balancing family life and practice. If you really want to, you will find the time to practice. Turn the TV off and practice. Get up early in the AM and practice. Stay up after the kids and wife/husband are asleep, and practice.

There is a difference betwen making mistakes in service and transposing. Transosing has nothing to do with the pastoer, it has to do with your growth as a musician.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjonathan02 on June 03, 2008, 07:12:51 AM
Then do it over 12 or 24 weeks, and only transpose during services and choir rehearsal. There was recently a thread about balancing family life and practice. If you really want to, you will find the time to practice. Turn the TV off and practice. Get up early in the AM and practice. Stay up after the kids and wife/husband are asleep, and practice.

There is a difference betwen making mistakes in service and transposing. Transosing has nothing to do with the pastoer, it has to do with your growth as a musician.

Really?  :-\ ::)


All I'm saying is, ya'll actin' like using the transpose button WHILE learning to play proficiently in ALL keys is DA DEBIL!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on June 03, 2008, 07:43:00 AM
Good Morning folks. :)

I cannot believe we are still on this topic.

For the record, i agree with U-13; it should not take you more than 6-8 weeks of diligent practice to be able to play in all keys.

I also do say that, yes, the transpose key IS "da debil" cuz you give it an inch and it will take a mile. I say this because it is SO easy to fall into laziness with the transpose key. In as much as we like to think that the musician will go home and practice, more likely than not, he will be so relieved to be able to get through the service using the transpose button, that he will not go home and practice.

We are all musicians here and we know the importance of finger memorization. This means that your fingers "remember" what to voice and all that. Using the transpose button hinders your ability to finger-memorize your keys. It will be THAT much difficult for you to play in other keys if you use the Transpose button for an extended period and have made it a part of your playing routine. Your fingers will not develop finger memory and you will end up frustrating yourself SHOULD you decide you want to start playing in other keys.

Even in the period of learning as a beginner, i will not advocate teaching them to use it so that they can "get through" the service. Sit the song out or let a more experienced person play it while you learn. Bad habits are too easy to form and hard to break. Using the transpose button is a bad habit.

IMO.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: SisterCM on June 03, 2008, 07:47:33 AM
Interesting!  I don't know how to use the tranpose button, I guess I better not add that to my things to learn list.   ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on June 03, 2008, 08:00:57 AM
Interesting!  I don't know how to use the tranpose button, I guess I better not add that to my things to learn list.   ;D

God bless you.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on June 03, 2008, 08:56:04 AM
Really?  :-\ ::)


All I'm saying is, ya'll actin' like using the transpose button WHILE learning to play proficiently in ALL keys is DA DEBIL!
Amen brother.   ;D    I still think if we focus on our own skills and ambitions, everything will be just fine.  I can't worry about if some other musician is transposing or not.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjonathan02 on June 03, 2008, 09:00:35 AM
Amen brother.   ;D    I still think if we focus on our own skills and ambitions, everything will be just fine.  I can't worry about if some other musician is transposing or not.

AMEN!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 03, 2008, 09:04:05 AM
Amen brother.   ;D    I still think if we focus on our own skills and ambitions, everything will be just fine.  I can't worry about if some other musician is transposing or not.

I guess it depends on who the musician is. If you care about their growth, then why would you want them to continue thier bad habbits.  Some musicians I dont care about, but some I do.

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: themidiroom on June 03, 2008, 09:20:34 AM
I guess it depends on who the musician is. If you care about their growth, then why would you want them to continue thier bad habbits.  Some musicians I dont care about, but some I do.


I'm done. :)   
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 03, 2008, 04:43:07 PM
Amen brother.   ;D    I still think if we focus on our own skills and ambitions, everything will be just fine.  I can't worry about if some other musician is transposing or not.

All points expressed here are very valid.
I don't advocate using the transpose, but like some1 said once, 1 might be forced to use itjust because that's what will make the service or event flow at the required standard..(this is understandable considering that sometimes in a 2& half hour servive they could do 20 songs in only 2 or 4 keys at max..so even if 1 wanted to get into the habit of using all the keys in the service, you are not given that chance because 1 key is sung in more than the rest.. :() So SisCM, with that as 1 of the reasons, I would advise that you at least know how to use the transpose button in case you might need it, but I'm not calling on you to use it because like Fenix said, you might want to use it for 1 song, but yo end up using it for a decade!! >:(

What I do to counter this [the singing in 1 key throughout service] (especially if I want to give other keys a chance, is start playing some soft music in the background in any key other than the "over-used 1s.."..in the hope that whoever starts a song starts it in that key..)

TMR is also correct. If some1 has played great music , be it they were transposing or not, the bottom line is they played great..
But obviously if they were being assessed at music school, they would have failed, but the point is they are not at music school..
Personally, I feel happy whenever I change keys & actually flow...The moment I press that transpose , then I know I have failed myself, so I try to avoid it by all means...

That is why I practice a few songs in all the keys..& I can see progress..

It is my PERSONAL goal to learn as much theory as I can & never transpose & most importantly, play well & play what moves people in any key..

I'm also aware that it is other musician's GOALS TO avoid playing in other keys & to avoid theory at all costs.. ::)
I don't try to impose my views & goals on them...I try to reason once or twice with them, if they don't want to hear of it, I just live & let them live.. :-X
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: SisterCM on June 03, 2008, 05:21:06 PM
All points expressed here are very valid.
I don't advocate using the transpose, but like some1 said once, 1 might be forced to use itjust because that's what will make the service or event flow at the required standard..(this is understandable considering that sometimes in a 2& half hour servive they could do 20 songs in only 2 or 4 keys at max..so even if 1 wanted to get into the habit of using all the keys in the service, you are not given that chance because 1 key is sung in more than the rest.. :() So SisCM, with that as 1 of the reasons, I would advise that you at least know how to use the transpose button in case you might need it, but I'm not calling on you to use it because like Fenix said, you might want to use it for 1 song, but yo end up using it for a decade!! >:(

And we know old habits are hard to break and I don't think I even want to go there.  Besides I am helping my 7 year old grand daugther and a 13 year old young man learn to play and I have to set good examples for them.  I don't think that would be a good example.  :)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: chevonee on June 03, 2008, 06:19:37 PM
Yo T, don't even sweat it man.
Say that again just a little louder PLEASE!!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 03, 2008, 06:25:16 PM
And we know old habits are hard to break and I don't think I even want to go there.  Besides I am helping my 7 year old grand daugther and a 13 year old young man learn to play and I have to set good examples for them.  I don't think that would be a good example.  :)

Good job you're doing..
I avoid that button...I also don't teach it to my few scholars..however, some of them have gone astray & have become addicts who only seem to know 1 key..it's 1 thing when you know how to do it in other keys, but because "you are feeling the key you are currently using" & it's another when you do it because it's the only way for you...
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: divinemusician on June 03, 2008, 06:40:59 PM
I think I said this before, but the only reason people cant play in every key is becaus they dont practic in every key. If you practice every key then you wont need to transpose. It shouldnt take you more than 6 weeks to kick the transpose habbit. Practice 2 keys a week. if you diligently pratice the keys that you arent good in, then you will get better. Trust me, it wll work; a few months go when I first started playng for this church, I was not very good in the key of D. But because they sang almost every song in D, I am now pretty good with D.

Do whatever it takes. If you play well by ear, find songs that are in different keys. If you are into theory, use the number system.  And also learn your scales and the proper fingering in every key. Its not that hard. YOu just have to put in the work. You reap what you sow.

I'm glad that my first keyboard did not have a transpose button, and that I didnt even know about it until I had already learned very key


i agree with you it does not take much to kick the habbit but my life isn't that simple. I am extremely busy so when i find time to practice i do, in the mean while I do play at church when my job allows me to be their durning the week. My time is about to open up due to me about to go back to school and I am taking a leave from my job so I will have mre time. I just don't play at church, I wear as they say many different hats and i just can't get everything done in 24 or even 48 hours. but i do agree with you. i don't plan on staying stuck on N i will be in D1 one day (Driving) until then I guess I got to do what I go to do. this does not mean I dont have love for music or I am not dedicated I am just dedicated to more than one thing and I have a lot of things going on. When I do practice I do practice two keys at a time with C# being my strong key, I am starting to dabble in Eb as well.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 03, 2008, 06:43:18 PM
Fake it 'til you make it :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: divinemusician on June 03, 2008, 06:48:17 PM
Fake it 'til you make it :D

lol i guess i am a FAKER  not to be confused with a LAKER...(i don't like the Lakers) anyways... yea i will do that i guess :-\ ;)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 03, 2008, 07:51:31 PM
i agree with you it does not take much to kick the habbit but my life isn't that simple. I am extremely busy so when i find time to practice i do, in the mean while I do play at church when my job allows me to be their durning the week. My time is about to open up due to me about to go back to school and I am taking a leave from my job so I will have mre time. I just don't play at church, I wear as they say many different hats and i just can't get everything done in 24 or even 48 hours. but i do agree with you. i don't plan on staying stuck on N i will be in D1 one day (Driving) until then I guess I got to do what I go to do. this does not mean I dont have love for music or I am not dedicated I am just dedicated to more than one thing and I have a lot of things going on. When I do practice I do practice two keys at a time with C# being my strong key, I am starting to dabble in Eb as well.

With C# under your belt, you will be amazed at how well & quickly you might learn to play in F#  & G# as well..
That's if what happened to me happens to others..
Learning G#/ Ab will also help you learn Eb with much ease..

Well, play it till you master it..
No fakers here ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 03, 2008, 07:58:43 PM
lol i guess i am a FAKER  not to be confused with a LAKER...(i don't like the Lakers) anyways... yea i will do that i guess :-\ ;)

start doing your scales in your unfamilar keys, every day, even if its only for a few minutes. That should help, especialy if you do it with the proper fingering
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: divinemusician on June 03, 2008, 08:49:36 PM
start doing your scales in your unfamilar keys, every day, even if its only for a few minutes. That should help, especialy if you do it with the proper fingering

i will start doing that it i can spare the time...  ;)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on June 04, 2008, 01:17:42 AM
Interesting!  I don't know how to use the tranpose button....

                       

GREAT! So glad you axed. I'll be glad to show you how!

Ok, first...on your keyboard, in the upper right hand corner, press that button with the picture of the devil on it. Then, when you hear that burst of loud laughter, don't be afraid, just let it get into you, until you suddenly find yourself laughing along in the same manner! (that means it's working).

Then, ruuuuuub the button over & over while chanting: "Oh yeah! I've finally found you, this i know, for the button tells me so!" (do that at least 10 times. Some people do it 12 times for every key).

Then finally...PRESS the wonderful button of beauty; hold it, then press ANNNTY key on the keyboard you want!!! Then breathe, exhale, let it out...feel it!

Now when people ask you "SisterCM, how you grow horns on yo head?", you just tell em: "Well, a lotta people can't quite put their finger on it, like i used to be - but i've solved that problem! It's all in the fingers, it's ALL in the fingers!" (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/innocent/innocent0007.gif) (http://www.picpiggy.com)














Muahahahahahahaah!!(http://bestsmileys.com/evil/11.gif)
Kirk Franklin, you'll NEVER be able to Stomp me in ANY key now!!! Muahhh hahahahahhh!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: SisterCM on June 04, 2008, 07:14:44 AM
                       

GREAT! So glad you axed. I'll be glad to show you how!

Ok, first...on your keyboard, in the upper right hand corner, press that button with the picture of the devil on it. Then, when you hear that burst of loud laughter, don't be afraid, just let it get into you, until you suddenly find yourself laughing along in the same manner! (that means it's working).

Then, ruuuuuub the button over & over while chanting: "Oh yeah! I've finally found you, this i know, for the button tells me so!" (do that at least 10 times. Some people do it 12 times for every key).

Then finally...PRESS the wonderful button of beauty; hold it, then press ANNNTY key on the keyboard you want!!! Then breathe, exhale, let it out...feel it!

Now when people ask you "SisterCM, how you grow horns on yo head?", you just tell em: "Well, a lotta people can't quite put their finger on it, like i used to be - but i've solved that problem! It's all in the fingers, it's ALL in the fingers!" ([url]http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/innocent/innocent0007.gif[/url]) ([url]http://www.picpiggy.com[/url])














Muahahahahahahaah!!([url]http://bestsmileys.com/evil/11.gif[/url])
Kirk Franklin, you'll NEVER be able to Stomp me in ANY key now!!! Muahhh hahahahahhh!






 :'(  you scurrrrrrrrrring me! 



 :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on June 04, 2008, 08:34:10 AM
With C# under your belt, you will be amazed at how well & quickly you might learn to play in F#  & G# as well..
That's if what happened to me happens to others..
Learning G#/ Ab will also help you learn Eb with much ease..

Well, play it till you master it..
No fakers here ;D

Boy you ain't lying!!!!!!!!

Learn to play in Db (or C#) and you will have access to almost all the black keys. If you can make it in Db, Gb and Ab will be pieces of cake.

Its just like G. If you can play in G, you have almost all the white keys nailed pretty much.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on June 04, 2008, 12:26:27 PM
Fake it 'til you make it :D


(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii314/Jlaws318/snoopsmh.gif)

Worst piece of advice ever for a musician, SMH.  ?/?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 04, 2008, 12:28:41 PM
([url]http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii314/Jlaws318/snoopsmh.gif[/url])

Worst piece of advice ever for a musician, SMH.  ?/?


(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii314/Jlaws318/lala-1.gif)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: SirTJ on June 04, 2008, 12:55:47 PM
Boy you ain't lying!!!!!!!!

Learn to play in Db (or C#) and you will have access to almost all the black keys. If you can make it in Db, Gb and Ab will be pieces of cake.

Its just like G. If you can play in G, you have almost all the white keys nailed pretty much.

That's true. I started in G and picked up C and F immediately afterwards. I've even got B down to a certain degree. E and A still need work, though.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 04, 2008, 01:00:16 PM
That's true. I started in G and picked up C and F immediately afterwards. I've even got B down to a certain degree. E and A still need work, though.

If you have B down, E should be easy as well as F#. IMO. They all seem simular to me.

As for A, There a few good RnB songs in A, so I pretty good with it. Most gospel musician dread playing in A.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: SisterCM on June 04, 2008, 01:16:48 PM
Boy you ain't lying!!!!!!!!

Learn to play in Db (or C#) and you will have access to almost all the black keys. If you can make it in Db, Gb and Ab will be pieces of cake.

Its just like G. If you can play in G, you have almost all the white keys nailed pretty much.


Wow!  Thank you!  I can play in the key of G.  Now I have a key to learn this summer, while school is out.  I was wondering what I would work on, with my review of all that I have covered this winter and spring. 
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 04, 2008, 03:21:34 PM
Well, the guys have said it..

These keys go in sets..We might all be slightly different, but it's pretty much close. This is how they worked for me:

G: C & D
Db: Gb & Ab
E: A & B
F: Bb
Eb: Ab & Bb

ETC..
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on June 05, 2008, 01:39:04 AM




 :'(  you scurrrrrrrrrring me! 



 :D :D :D :D :D

 I thought you said you wanted to learn how to use it!  :D :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: SisterCM on June 05, 2008, 07:30:00 AM
I thought you said you wanted to learn how to use it!  :D :D

No way!   ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: SisterCM on June 05, 2008, 08:32:10 AM
Well, the guys have said it..

These keys go in sets..We might all be slightly different, but it's pretty much close. This is how they worked for me:

G: C & D
Db: Gb & Ab
E: A & B
F: Bb
Eb: Ab & Bb

ETC..



So what is the fuss about learning all the keys?  :)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: cas10a on June 05, 2008, 12:59:49 PM

So what is the fuss about learning all the keys?  :)

I don't understand the fuss...If you can play a song well in a certain key...

...for some its easy to transpose notes/chords in their mind, but if that is difficult for you, when learning...
1. write down the notes/chords you play in the key you are comfortable
2. tranpose the notes/chords on paper to the key you are trying to learn (you can count half-step/whole steps - whatever works best for you)
3. Play what you wrote in the key you want to become familiar with.

If you do this for a songs you play well in a key you are comfortable with, eventually you will become comfortable in the new key, it's just your mind and fingers adjusting to the movement (for the most part...the chords will be the same) in the new key and thats a matter of repetition.  ;) :)

I find it difficult to use a transpose button on a keyboard, it would be a rare occassion if I ever used it, maybe because I learned on piano.  Maybe the only case I would use it, is if I was truly uncomfortable with playing a song I was unfamiliar with in a certain key, but come to think of it, even then I would try to just play in that key...by the time I figured out where the tranpose button is, the song would probably be over...lol! ;) :D ;D

IMHO...musician that use it, are musicians, they just have not fully learned their craft...Don't rely on the transpose button, you may not have one always...
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 05, 2008, 01:20:14 PM

So what is the fuss about learning all the keys?  :)

Other than for personal development,you might one day wantto play on the grand/ or just a piano.
It's fine if you are by yourself, but the moment  some1 starts a song in a key you are unfamiliar with, there will be no transpose button to help you out. The only way you will be able to play is if you start the song & if the people can't sing it in that key, then... >:( Also, you wouldn't play song that modulate to another key if you only play in 1 key :'(

I also know of paid guys who have lost out on big crusades..The crusades ould probably present them with many opportunities & $$$, but because the Kurz or whichever board that was available had no transpose button, they had to decline the offer :'(

So inasmuch as I know how useful the transpose button is (but bad!bad!bad! for your growth!) , I encourage everyone to avoid it by all means & just learn in all the keys..It won't be too long before you are rewarded & all the keys feel very familiar to both your mind & your fingers.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on June 05, 2008, 01:34:17 PM
^^^

That was good right there Mus.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 05, 2008, 01:51:46 PM
^^^

That was good right there Mus.

 ;)

It's happened to me b4  (the piano part >:() & I vowed to myself that I would never let that thing happen to me again..

The last thing you want to do is force people to sing in a key they can't sing in..

& I'f I'm planning to get a nice grand in the future , I better teach myself good habits.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 05, 2008, 03:16:50 PM
^^^^^
ALL good points. What if you decide to play the organ? They dont have transpose. And praise leaders dont always sing in the key you practiced in. You have to play in whatever key they sing in.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on June 05, 2008, 04:02:02 PM
^^^^^
ALL good points. What if you decide to play the organ? They dont have transpose. And praise leaders dont always sing in the key you practiced in. You have to play in whatever key they sing in.

Dawg, that is why i MAKE SURE to start playing the song while the praise leader is giving the exhortation. I don't trust them very much so i make sure to play the song very softly so they can get the key in their system.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 05, 2008, 04:49:36 PM
Dawg, that is why i MAKE SURE to start playing the song while the praise leader is giving the exhortation. I don't trust them very much so i make sure to play the song very softly so they can get the key in their system.

I do that too. But sometimes they will start the second or third song, in whaatever key they want.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 05, 2008, 05:47:09 PM
Dawg, that is why i MAKE SURE to start playing the song while the praise leader is giving the exhortation. I don't trust them very much so i make sure to play the song very softly so they can get the key in their system.

I find this to work with most singers (Not the song part,t he key part!)


I do that too. But sometimes they will start the second or third song, in whaatever key they want.

Pity some faces come into mind at the mention of that..
It's like the person completely isolates their ears from the atmosphere..

I don't mind some1 starting a song that's in their heart, but doing another "off" key is  >:( >:( ::)
It just breaks the flow!!!
SOme people you can get them to keep the key by playing louder & louder as you see that they are about to sing, but others are just too "raw" to think about the flow..
anyway, doesn't matter coz once the song is running a new wave can be started ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on June 06, 2008, 07:38:02 AM
I find this to work with most singers (Not the song part,t he key part!)


Pity some faces come into mind at the mention of that..
It's like the person completely isolates their ears from the atmosphere..

I don't mind some1 starting a song that's in their heart, but doing another "off" key is  >:( >:( ::)
It just breaks the flow!!!
SOme people you can get them to keep the key by playing louder & louder as you see that they are about to sing, but others are just too "raw" to think about the flow..
anyway, doesn't matter coz once the song is running a new wave can be started ;D

I remember when one of the choir members was leading and she sang off key. The pianist we had at that time just stopped all the musicians and told them to stop playing until she was done. When she was done, he started the song AGAIN in the right key and the choir had to sing the song all over again.

That was a funny day man.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 06, 2008, 10:32:07 AM
I remember when one of the choir members was leading and she sang off key. The pianist we had at that time just stopped all the musicians and told them to stop playing until she was done. When she was done, he started the song AGAIN in the right key and the choir had to sing the song all over again.

That was a funny day man.

With that said, you remind me of an incident that happened a few weeks back when our choir was singing..:

There were a few solo parts, so somehow they got different people to sing the parts..& this girl just went off key by a couple of steps...it unsettled every1 :-[

But when I looked at her history, she has a tendency of starting songs in a key suited to her, so if the choir had been aware of this, they shouldn't have allowed her to sing a solo...anyway, they ended up singing in her key, but it was all messed up!! >:(
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on June 06, 2008, 01:23:12 PM
One other issue with my choir is that the people are so used to singing in their respective voice class that it is very hard for them to sing lead. For instance, a tenor was leading p&w on Friday and was trying to teach me the song. I could not get the song cuz he was singing the tenor part and i could not recognize the song at all. ?/?

Wassup with that?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on June 06, 2008, 01:45:33 PM
One other issue with my choir is that the people are so used to singing in their respective voice class that it is very hard for them to sing lead. For instance, a tenor was leading p&w on Friday and was trying to teach me the song. I could not get the song cuz he was singing the tenor part and i could not recognize the song at all. ?/?

Wassup with that?

Thats just bad singing. The members of my group were doing that, and the just could not understand why it was wrong
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjonathan02 on June 06, 2008, 03:14:16 PM
Thats just bad singing. The members of my group were doing that, and the just could not understand why it was wrong

It's not bad singing. It's staying locked into your particular lane, is all. Take the same person, with an alto and a soprano and they'd be fine. Because dude was by himself, he ONLY knows the tenor part and hasn't learned to hear or listen for the other parts.


That person is teachable.

Bad singing is taking a song from the key it's in and putting it somewhere else when it's your turn to solo.....and the song doesn't have a modulation in it at. all.  ::)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 07, 2008, 03:41:20 PM
It's not bad singing. It's staying locked into your particular lane, is all. Take the same person, with an alto and a soprano and they'd be fine. Because dude was by himself, he ONLY knows the tenor part and hasn't learned to hear or listen for the other parts.


That person is teachable.

Bad singing is taking a song from the key it's in and putting it somewhere else when it's your turn to solo.....and the song doesn't have a modulation in it at. all.  ::)

& that's a Rapp!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: raphaelbendan on June 10, 2008, 10:13:31 PM
I started transposing about 2 years ago. It started out because I had worship leaders singing in key of C using a 62 key keyboard I begin liking to hit my low C on the bass line. Then I started having to deal with too many non singers.

Yes I can play most tunes in any key but sometimes you need to just make sure you play it good to keep everyone in a good spirit.

Yes transposers are musicians, but I will not retune my Guitar or Bass for a song.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on June 11, 2008, 12:17:24 PM
I started transposing about 2 years ago. It started out because I had worship leaders singing in key of C using a 62 key keyboard I begin liking to hit my low C on the bass line. Then I started having to deal with too many non singers.

Yes I can play most tunes in any key but sometimes you need to just make sure you play it good to keep everyone in a good spirit.  
Yes transposers are musicians, but I will not retune my Guitar or Bass for a song.

That's understandable...If I also feel that things could be way more "up there", I try to transpose if I can do it without disturbing the flow.
But all in all, if we can already do "all those great things" in some keys, we should dedicate our practice time to reaching that level in other keys as well...Of course that take blood, sweat & tears ;D ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 3rd-Day on June 16, 2008, 03:14:35 PM
A much talked about subject buuuuuutttt.......

Would you consider a transposer, a real musicians??  Yes or No??  Explain your answer.

My answer is 'No', because you are mainly tricking people into believe you can do something you really aren't doing.
Yes!

Musician- composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : instrumentalist

The definition has nothing to do with the ability to play in every key.

For the record, I dont transpose. Never did!

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on June 18, 2008, 02:28:10 AM

WOW!! I Guess I am Not Making the Best Impression on this Messageboard .. Well I've never been one for Popularity  ....But Let me Clarify

I Meant EVERY thing I said.... and I Don't REGRET saying it ..  Now I didn't Mean to OFFEND my BROTHER but I Don't REGRET saying it whatsoever and I'll Stand by it 

REAL MUSICIANS do not TRANSPOSE..

See?...I tried to have ya back, now you're takin it too far! lol....I personally feel that one should learn all 12 keys and not HAVE to use a transpose button. BUT, i already shut this nonsense down in my Stevie Wonder scenario (somewhere around here lol), that can NOT even be argued!

As a matter of fact, let me go find it! lol


Stevie Wonder using a transposer in church, because he can only play in 11 keys, but the song was in that 12th key is not against any church rules, and nor is Stevie competing against anyone in worship service.

So to say "Stevie Wonder is not a real musician just because of this scenario" (hypothetical example)......Mike Tyson tells me that's "ludicrist!" lol

Stevie is still as bad (meaning good), as we all know, he just has a "limitation" in one key, so he used the transpose button that Sunday and blessed somebody. But Berry Gordy DID tease him afterwards about learning to play in that 12th key! lol 8)

Now, i'm not so sure you're prepared to say that an "11 key, transpose button using" Stevie Wonder, is NOT a "real musician"!! lol (If so, let me stand back, so i don't get hit with the lightning bolts!)

The idea of LEARNING ALL KEYS is sound advice. But the " insulting and inaccurate characterizations" of musicians, is where you "play yourself". You can make your point without falling in error, by mischaracterizing other musicians. This is no more than "word games". Get accurate with your words, and you'll be alright. 8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on June 18, 2008, 02:29:30 AM
I may have put that on the wrong thread, let me check!  :o
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on June 18, 2008, 02:31:32 AM
Yeah, go here http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,56240.100.html (http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,56240.100.html)

to catch the convo. My bad! lol
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjegede04 on July 11, 2008, 08:17:54 AM
i am a transposer and i think that i only do it to learn quickly and then when if finish learning i will transpose.

Basicaly i can play in every key but for some reason i choose not to.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: cas10a on July 12, 2008, 03:52:15 PM
Ok...we have thoroughly worn this topic out. :-\ ;)...

Many can play in every key and modulate on the spot if need be (I started lessons young learning classical piano-"NO" transpose button), but I have used the transpose on rare occasions when I could find it on a keyboard (years later when keyboards became less expensive...lol, it is has been helpful on rare occasions)...

Bottom line on transposing, we all know...it is best to learn how to play in every key, but if you haven't learned all you need to know to play in every key, use the technology that God provided men/women the knowledge to invent (transpose button) to be able help you...

Yes...you are a musician if you can only play in "1" key...you just need to learn the rest of the keys and perfect God's gift to you....

NOTE:  just don't depend on the transpose button...make it your plan to learn every key fluently! :) 8)...JM2$C...IMHO!

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: PianoWizard on July 13, 2008, 10:10:13 AM
Ok...we have thoroughly worn this topic out. :-\ ;)...

Many can play in every key and modulate on the spot if need be (I started lessons young learning classical piano-"NO" transpose button), but I have used the transpose on rare occasions when I could find it on a keyboard (years later when keyboards became less expensive...lol, it is has been helpful on rare occasions)...

Bottom line on transposing, we all know...it is best to learn how to play in every key, but if you haven't learned all you need to know to play in every key, use the technology that God provided men/women the knowledge to invent (transpose button) to be able help you...

Yes...you are a musician if you can only play in "1" key...you just need to learn the rest of the keys and perfect God's gift to you....

NOTE:  just don't depend on the transpose button...make it your plan to learn every key fluently! :) 8)...JM2$C...IMHO!

AMEN TO THAT..... :D.

PianoWiz...
Title: Tranposers are not skilled Musicians.
Post by: under13 on July 13, 2008, 10:25:25 PM
One thing about trasposers, is that they ARE NOT SKILLED MUSICIANS. The musicians in the Bible played skillfully, and so should we. Playing in every key is a basic skill. Too many of us wanna skip the fundamentals. The same goes for those who dont know basic key signatures, basic notation, timing, scales and other basic elements of theory.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on July 14, 2008, 11:01:48 AM
Some1 please close & archive this topic :D :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Ladyn on July 14, 2008, 11:49:30 AM
Some1 please close & archive this topic :D :D
[/quote

Good suggestion
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on July 14, 2008, 06:43:33 PM
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT...
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on July 14, 2008, 06:44:17 PM
*transposes*

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

*transposes*

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

*transposes*

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on July 14, 2008, 07:24:08 PM
*transposes*

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

*transposes*

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

*transposes*

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on July 15, 2008, 05:14:51 PM
Dang kodacolor, u had to post that song twice for effect huh?   :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Ladyn on July 15, 2008, 06:25:34 PM
*transposes*

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

*transposes*

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

*transposes*

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

Ok, this song is officially an  EARWORM!!! I can't get this frazzlin' song out of my head now!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: organrecka on July 17, 2008, 12:52:47 AM
Well my first nature is drums but when our head musican left the chruch I started playin keys and organ    without someone on keys the service wasnt the same my point is u need to learn all keys at hm. I agree  transposing sucks but they are still musicans if they transpose
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: seemunny on July 24, 2008, 02:29:48 AM
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT

I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES
EVERYBODY'S NERVES, OH
I KNOW A SONG THAT GETS ON EVERYBODY'S NERVES
AND THIS IS HOW IT GOES
DOOT- DOOT - DOOT...

Ok, that was funny, and i think i laughed a l.i.t.t.l.e. harder than i should have. lol
"doot-doot-doot?"...i don't know for sure, but i'm guessing the MUST be a dance that goes along with that...lol



i repent.

8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on July 24, 2008, 08:31:53 AM
I rebuke this thread. 8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: MemphisKeys on August 28, 2008, 05:10:05 PM
To be honest some musicians might have to transpose at a point of time...especially if they are just starting out and want to get some experience and want to learn... when I started I use to use the transpose button but it was still learning to me...So no matter if yall think "transposers" are "fakers" that make yall a faker too because i know when we all started playing some point of time we had to transpose and come back to whatever key we want to learn. I did it when I first started playing but, once you start to get experience and understand what you doing then you want have to transpose no more.. I learn how to play out of every key but not as effective as I want but Im still  learning.. Get off the transposers back they'll get it sometime....Everybody can't learn everything at once...I learned how to play at different sometimes, Still trying to get effective in some keys...yall have to understand that nobody can learn anything more then what they know over night...If it bothers them then trust me they'll get it.... I was like that...Of course I still have things to learn but ima get there..
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on August 28, 2008, 05:20:19 PM
that make yall a faker too because i know when we all started playing some point of time we had to transpose and come back to whatever key we want to learn. I did it when I first started playing but,

Speak for yourself, cuz I sure didnt do it :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Metronome on August 28, 2008, 05:38:17 PM
To be honest some musicians might have to transpose at a point of time...especially if they are just starting out and want to get some experience and want to learn... when I started I use to use the transpose button but it was still learning to me...So no matter if yall think "transposers" are "fakers" that make yall a faker too because i know when we all started playing some point of time we had to transpose and come back to whatever key we want to learn. I did it when I first started playing but, once you start to get experience and understand what you doing then you want have to transpose no more.. I learn how to play out of every key but not as effective as I want but Im still  learning.. Get off the transposers back they'll get it sometime....Everybody can't learn everything at once...I learned how to play at different sometimes, Still trying to get effective in some keys...yall have to understand that nobody can learn anything more then what they know over night...If it bothers them then trust me they'll get it.... I was like that...Of course I still have things to learn but ima get there..

Couldnt agree less............for this reason.  Even if you are learning to play you should have some sort of knowledge about what music is before even touching a note...some sort of theory/chord formulation should be in your brain.  Thats why a lot of cats gets frustrated and discouraged.  The wanna play so bad in service but yet and still they have know idea as to what they are playing.  You gotta have some foundation in you . That way you could learn it on the fly if need be....and if not stil be able to practice them at home.  I learned all of my keys in 6 months without a board to practice on....just through knowing SOME (not even a lot) theory and playing on sundays and fridays.  Chords arent hard................once you learn a I-IV-V in C you should be able to play it in all keys if you really want to.....transposing is nothing but laziness
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: GSM on August 28, 2008, 07:29:57 PM
I'm sure most of you are getting tired to responses on this topic....but I thinks its key, that we don't become divisive and fingerpointers, or make universal assumtions and declarations in regard to musicianship and skill.  We must acknowledge that there are a variety of factors that may contribute to one doing what he/she does.

Although NOW I understand some basic theory, and am fluent in all keys...it was not always the case.  If in a service on a keyboard and I "got stuck" to save disruption in the service, and frankly to avoid embarassment, I'd transpose in a minute.

We cant say that all tranposers are lazy or "unreal".  Even though I believe I understand, why some hold that argument.  I'm 34, and have been publicly playing keys, since 14.  I am a drummer that was forced (literally, by my ex gangsta turned preacha father)to the organ because there was not one in our small church.   I continued to practice and develop in all my keys, however for the longest time, I was not fluent or comfy in G, I'm not sure why, but I just didn't have vision and application in G, regardless of how I practiced, or worked on my chording....G was torment for me...so if at a board and a song popped off in G, if on a organ, I'd move them to F# or Ab...if on a board, I'd transpose.  Thankfully, I'm much better in G, but for many a year(into my 30's) G was my learning disability(Although for some odd reason, I could rock that JHall cut "changed" in G)

Everyone is not exposed to theory,or the numbers system, and in small churches like I grew up in, many could only play in a few keys.  A player I know in particular would play you to tears in C,F,G and Bb, but did the Spirit of God move any less ,when she was at a board and transposed???...NO....does that make her a faker or "unreal" musician?

I knew of another musician who could play in every key, NEVER transposed, but a lot of their playing was unitelligable...is he the "real" musician ??  I know of another gentleman, who in the studio or in rehearsal had to transpose, because they could not play in every key...but on sunday morning, they literally transformed and became what many of you would describe "a beast" in every key, I mean this cat can do no wrong, but when service is over, he's back to tranpose city...so which is he??

Granted I know some musicians are lazy, and I'd be lying if I said I havent had a thought, or snicker or two, when someone was killing and showing every run and progression they knew in Eb, but as soon as the choir director got happy and had them modulate up to E (not part of the plan)...they switched to the worlds most basic chords (or transposed).

My point is for you high flying eagles, be a lil patient, and don't disassociate yourself from the rest of us cardinals, pigeons and ducks...afterall an ostrich is still a bird

I'm a proponent of knowing your craft, playing in all keys, being adept at all styles, but please let us not be competitive or elitist over this issue.  Fact is God anointed us to play, and it is He that has given us the faculty to develop in our skill(obviously he wasnt much in a hurry to help me in G).  Like the story of the talents, some of us are a 10, others 5, and 2.

I encourage us all to operate at the maximum level according to our faith and the measure that was placed in us.  Spend time practicing and developing your craft, more importantly spend time playing TO HIM, learning what HE enoys, and wants to hear, and not just practicing and playing to impress others
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: MemphisKeys on August 29, 2008, 09:56:37 AM
I understand that but can't nobody on here say that they knew actually what they was doing when they first sat down at a keyboard... Sometimes when you wanna learn how to play a instrument you just bang on it... Beginners can't just sit at a keyboard an automatically know what they are doing I would like to learn... I know when I first started playing I wanted to learn what I can when I took my keyboard to church I wanted to learn that's how you learn by getting out... Can't nobody sit here and say that they sat at a keyboard and knew what they was playing... Somebody had to be taught something...Transposers are no different those that can play and understand... I didn't understand what I was doing but as I begin to learn I stop transposing.... Everything will come in due time everybody can't learn as fast as others... It took me a while to learn what I know and Still have learning to do...
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on August 29, 2008, 10:13:31 AM
How many times am i gonna have to rebuke this thread?

Do i have to get out my anointing oil?  >:( ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Ramar on August 29, 2008, 11:35:17 AM
Transposers are asterisk musicians... Jus' call 'em Barry Bonds.

*

Put an asterisk on their keyboards and call it a day.


I just had to put my little two cents in this worn out thread, didn't I???

Don't worry, I already put the anointing oil on my own head.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Ladyn on August 29, 2008, 12:44:39 PM
I think the horse is DEAD folks! Beating him more is just plain demented, insane, asinine, ludicrous, insidious, pitiful, pathetic......... I have a lot more, but I know when to quit.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Ramar on August 29, 2008, 12:47:09 PM
I think the horse is DEAD folks! Beating him more is just plain demented, insane, asinine, ludicrous, insidious, pitiful, pathetic......... I have a lot more, but I know when to quit.

you just kicked the horse again...
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Travis T on August 29, 2008, 01:11:51 PM
I started off reading music then the person who really helped me take that leap into playing gospel by ear was a transposer. This guy played in c the ALL the time and only used 3 finger chords C,F,G,Aminor and thats it. So me being new on the gospel scene didnt know any better just started following him, boy i tell you what a mistake. The result was 1. me not being able to read that well now(used to be good at it) 2. Been playing for about 5 years and cant play as well as do in c in the other keys. 3 I transpose most of the time. Does this make me not a Musician NO,  I can play in every key, but not as well as I do in C, and I actually think every musician can play in every key. If your playing and someone asks you what key are you in and you say G and your really tring to play in G but not doing that well does that mean that your not playing in G ? NO. I my advice to non-transposers is to give transposer tips,techniques,and strategies, and what ever else would help tansposers stop transposing. And transposers TAKE THE ADVICE AND APPLY IT ! and sometimes transposers transpose because they are comfortable doing not cause the cant play, so someone who can rip it in everykey but transposes into their favorite key to be comfortable is not a musician ? NO
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on August 29, 2008, 05:46:41 PM
And the saga continues, LOL.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on August 29, 2008, 07:37:59 PM
I think we already established that transposers are real musicians, they just arent skilled musicians. knowing your scales and basic chords in every key is a basic skill. There is no reason why someone who has been playing for over a year, should not to know the most basic fundamentals of theory.

In every other profession, the worker will learn the basic principles needed to do the Job. A  musician who does not know his keys, is like a Pastor who does not know the bible, or a mechanic who cant change a flat tire. So why when it comes to music, do we make up every single excuse we can think to defend our lazyness?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: divinemusician on September 03, 2008, 06:54:19 PM
I think we already established that transposers are real musicians, they just arent skilled musicians. knowing your scales and basic chords in every key is a basic skill. There is no reason why someone who has been playing for over a year, should not to know the most basic fundamentals of theory.

In every other profession, the worker will learn the basic principles needed to do the Job. A  musician who does not know his keys, is like a Pastor who does not know the bible, or a mechanic who cant change a flat tire. So why when it comes to music, do we make up every single excuse we can think to defend our lazyness?

I totally agree and this is coming from somebody that transposes... yea I know T-Block.. but I am up to knowing 6 keys... i think that is ok in my thoughts... but yea Under13 I must agree
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: ma1ne on December 02, 2008, 03:21:05 PM
1st off i really feel that they are muscians. Everybody not gon be a monster on the keys. Im all about the music. Meaning if it sounds good and its on key then we can do business. Sum musicians out there really cut on people that cant do every key and i feel as though thats arrogance. Now if you willin to show the person more than thats fine but dont try to play nobody. I hate arrogance, I HATE ARROGANCE and i think people tend to forget about the purpose of the gift God gave them. I bet u u can take a dude that may only know 2 keys and bring the house down in comparison to a dude that do runs with his feet. Its all about the annointing. So yes they are musicians.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Rjthakid on December 02, 2008, 04:49:59 PM
1st off i really feel that they are muscians. Everybody not gon be a monster on the keys. Im all about the music. Meaning if it sounds good and its on key then we can do business. Sum musicians out there really cut on people that cant do every key and i feel as though thats arrogance. Now if you willin to show the person more than thats fine but dont try to play nobody. I hate arrogance, I HATE ARROGANCE and i think people tend to forget about the purpose of the gift God gave them. I bet u u can take a dude that may only know 2 keys and bring the house down in comparison to a dude that do runs with his feet. Its all about the annointing. So yes they are musicians.

The NSA will be sending you a welcome basket.  Please open it when you are at least 20 feet from innocent bystanders. 

-Thank You.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on December 02, 2008, 05:19:48 PM
The NSA will be sending you a welcome basket.  Please open it when you are at least 20 feet from innocent bystanders. 

-Thank You.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I thought the NSA was shut down!!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Rjthakid on December 02, 2008, 05:37:15 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I thought the NSA was shut down!!!

Underground my brutha.  We're just underground.   ;)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: nicewitit on December 25, 2008, 08:15:39 PM
of course Im all for musicians having the right heart and all that jazz, but i just dont consider you to be a COMPETENT musician if you are a MONSTER- in Db. but your pressing buttons when you modulate to D, just my opinion.

-D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: BigFoot_BigThumb on December 25, 2008, 11:54:36 PM
I don't know if I've ever chimed in on this topic.  But my feeling on this subject is NO, they are not musicians because a true, disciplined musician can and will learn to play a song in it's original keyboard notation.  The person that created the transpose button should be shot.  Transposing is cheating IMO.  Now if someone requests that you play a song in another key and you can take it there without hitting that button, that shows a real musician.  I mean piano, horns, and guitars do not come with transpose buttons.  So why should a keyboard have one?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on December 26, 2008, 04:33:45 AM
The person that created the transpose button should be shot.

?/?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on December 26, 2008, 05:58:22 AM
The person that created the transpose button should be shot.

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAA, in a weird way I agree wit you.  People misuse and abuse that button so much it's a shame b4 the living God.  It's probably one of the worst inventions ever, professionaly speaking.  That along with Capo for guitars.

But, look on the bright side, that same guy (or girl) made a killing because of it, LOL.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: CReneeW on December 26, 2008, 04:33:57 PM
To me, transposers are musicians, but they are limited to certain keys.

 When I first started playing, the transpose button was used. The fear of playing at a church or another function with an original piano caused me withdraw from the button. Now, If I can not play a song in another key, then I will not play. :)     
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjegede04 on December 26, 2008, 04:39:15 PM
why are peope still talking abot this, it keeps showing up on my uread replies
and is starting to anoy me

(plese do not reply to what i have said. email me if you want)
Title: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musicmajordjs on December 27, 2008, 04:02:39 AM
Well I am finally back. I been gone since July, I see that this topic is still popular.......WOW. :o The only thing I have to say is that yes people that use the magic button are musicians until they play an acoustic piano. Stop puttin musicians down and lift them up and encourage them to practice. Just talkin about the issue helps nothing. I really get mad at all of the negative comments towards musicians that transpose. The kingdom of God is about uplifting....not tearing down before they start.

Think about it, I guess the button was put there for some reason
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: jjegede04 on December 28, 2008, 03:01:51 PM
I hope the previous message closes this topic once and for all
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on December 28, 2008, 07:22:08 PM
I hope the previous message closes this topic once and for all

It won't.  If you don't like the topic, don't reply in it. ;)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on December 28, 2008, 07:51:30 PM
OK, so today my church goes to fellowship with another church. They have PnW, Our Choir gets up, our pastor is on the keyboard, I'm on the organ. He starts the song, It sounds kinda off..... I know we did it this morning in C, now he's doing it in F. even though I've never done it in that key, I still played it fine. Then we do the next song which we rehearsed in E, but he does it in A, by that time I've figured out that the previous player must have had it transposed + 5. And that song, was more uptempo and I couldnt really play it too well in A, so I struggled though it.

So now I think I'm changing my position on Transposers. They may be musicians, but they are definatley incompetent, and they should at least have the courtesy to untranspose when they leave the instrument.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on December 29, 2008, 01:13:40 AM
OK, so today my church goes to fellowship with another church. They have PnW, Our Choir gets up, our pastor is on the keyboard, I'm on the organ. He starts the song, It sounds kinda off..... I know we did it this morning in C, now he's doing it in F. even though I've never done it in that key, I still played it fine. Then we do the next song which we rehearsed in E, but he does it in A, by that time I've figured out that the previous player must have had it transposed + 5. And that song, was more uptempo and I couldnt really play it too well in A, so I struggled though it.

So now I think I'm changing my position on Transposers. They may be musicians, but they are definatley incompetent, and they should at least have the courtesy to untranspose when they leave the instrument.


So your pastor didn't recognize that the board had been transposed? Did he start playing in C position then you heard it and had to figure out that it was actually F? This is messed up right here man.

Whenever i see our bassist start playing the board before i get on it, i switch it on and off. I don't even know where the transpose is on the Motif.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjonathan02 on December 29, 2008, 08:09:03 AM
OK, so today my church goes to fellowship with another church. They have PnW, Our Choir gets up, our pastor is on the keyboard, I'm on the organ. He starts the song, It sounds kinda off..... I know we did it this morning in C, now he's doing it in F. even though I've never done it in that key, I still played it fine. Then we do the next song which we rehearsed in E, but he does it in A, by that time I've figured out that the previous player must have had it transposed + 5. And that song, was more uptempo and I couldnt really play it too well in A, so I struggled though it.

So now I think I'm changing my position on Transposers. They may be musicians, but they are definatley incompetent, and they should at least have the courtesy to untranspose when they leave the instrument.

a. How did your pastor NOT know the song was in the wrong key?


b. Why didn't he stop and start again?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Rjthakid on December 29, 2008, 09:02:46 AM
a. How did your pastor NOT know the song was in the wrong key?


b. Why didn't he stop and start again?

The answer to both of these questions is probably that he's not very advanced.

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on December 29, 2008, 09:12:41 AM
a. How did your pastor NOT know the song was in the wrong key?


b. Why didn't he stop and start again?

I have no idea. I didnt get to speak to him about it. He's a pretty good player (better than me), but I think he's more into memorization of the chords, instead of  just playing by ear, so maybe he didnt notice. IDK.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 4hisglory on December 29, 2008, 09:42:36 AM
This subject is still going on?  I thought we already established that transposers are musicians just like athletes that use steroids are athletes. :)''
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Rjthakid on December 29, 2008, 09:52:28 AM
This subject is still going on?  I thought we already established that transposers are musicians just like athletes that use steroids are athletes. :)''

Yea, let's talk about something NEW!

Do you guys think Church Musicians should be paid?   :P
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on December 29, 2008, 09:58:59 AM
Yea, let's talk about something NEW!

Do you guys think Church Musicians should be paid?   :P

Thanks for reminding me, I gotta  get up and go to the bank  ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Rjthakid on December 29, 2008, 10:05:00 AM
Do you guys think Church Musicians should be paid?   :P

Thanks for reminding me, I gotta  get up and go to the bank  ;D

Well we know YOUR answer. :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on December 29, 2008, 11:47:12 AM
I have no idea. I didnt get to speak to him about it. He's a pretty good player (better than me), but I think he's more into memorization of the chords, instead of  just playing by ear, so maybe he didnt notice. IDK.

Hmm, chord memorization is not the coolest way to go. My bassist warned me about just relying purely on muscle memory when playing a song. The reason he told me to try and actually hear and understand the progression is that if i should forget what chord comes next, then i am screwed. This has happened to me a few times when i had to rush learn a song. I had just memorized the chord shapes and all. Then when i started playing and forgot ONE chord shape, i fell apart. :)

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on December 29, 2008, 12:39:32 PM
Hmm, chord memorization is not the coolest way to go. My bassist warned me about just relying purely on muscle memory when playing a song. The reason he told me to try and actually hear and understand the progression is that if i should forget what chord comes next, then i am screwed. This has happened to me a few times when i had to rush learn a song. I had just memorized the chord shapes and all. Then when i started playing and forgot ONE chord shape, i fell apart. :)



I guess thats why I messed up on the second song. I got though half of it alright, but there was one part which I had just memorized the notes. I guess I better go study the number system.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Jmanley1116 on December 29, 2008, 02:26:32 PM
Not to keep talking about this, but I went to a concert in the bronx recently where one group was up and the guy on boards transposed.  The group that got up after them started and everything was jacked.  They stopped the song...the keyboardist happened to be a popular musician in NYC and he grabbed the mike and blasted the guy who transposed.  It was the funniest thing in the world. 
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on December 29, 2008, 02:36:14 PM
Not to keep talking about this, but I went to a concert in the bronx recently where one group was up and the guy on boards transposed.  The group that got up after them started and everything was jacked.  They stopped the song...the keyboardist happened to be a popular musician in NYC and he grabbed the mike and blasted the guy who transposed.  It was the funniest thing in the world. 

Drop some names! :D

We werent too jacked up, but we did not sound anywhere near our best and The songs were too high for our singers to sing effectivley. But God was still Glorified, so I guess thats what really matters. ( being an artist, its really hard to say that.)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Rjthakid on December 29, 2008, 03:16:49 PM
Not to keep talking about this, but I went to a concert in the bronx recently where one group was up and the guy on boards transposed.  The group that got up after them started and everything was jacked.  They stopped the song...the keyboardist happened to be a popular musician in NYC and he grabbed the mike and blasted the guy who transposed.  It was the funniest thing in the world. 

"To the wannabe keyboardist who transposed this keyboard: Please reset the board when you're done for the sake of the REAL musicians who play after you.  Go out and cop my DVD and learn somethin.....chump."



 :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: B3Wannabe on December 29, 2008, 05:35:57 PM
"To the wannabe keyboardist who transposed this keyboard: Please reset the board when you're done for the sake of the REAL musicians who play after you.  Go out and cop my DVD and learn somethin.....chump."



 :D

My God! I hope you're making that up!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on December 29, 2008, 07:08:24 PM
My God! I hope you're making that up!

 :D :D

Indeed
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Da_Drumma on December 30, 2008, 08:29:26 AM
WIKIPEDIA:

Musician- A person who plays or writes music. Musicians can be classified by their roles in creating or performing music.

Webster's:

Musician- A composer, conductor, or performer of music.

Wikipedia:

Music- is an art form whos medium is sound organized in time.

Wikipedia:

Art- The process or product of deliberatley and creatively arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions.

So why arent Transposers considered real musicians???



I tried looking up "Real Musician" but what do you know, THERE IS NO REAL DEFINITION!!!!

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on December 30, 2008, 04:01:36 PM
Not to keep talking about this, but I went to a concert in the bronx recently where one group was up and the guy on boards transposed.  The group that got up after them started and everything was jacked.  They stopped the song...the keyboardist happened to be a popular musician in NYC and he grabbed the mike and blasted the guy who transposed.  It was the funniest thing in the world. 

Man, I wish I could've been there.  Heck, I wish u would've taped it so that we all can hear it.  I would've been cracking up all night.

One time a while ago back when I was a drummer, there was this keyboardist who used transposed.  Then, a well-known musician blasted him so bad.  And this was at a gospel event which made it extra funny and embarrasing.  No cursing was involved though, it was all holy.

"To the wannabe keyboardist who transposed this keyboard: Please reset the board when you're done for the sake of the REAL musicians who play after you.  Go out and cop my DVD and learn somethin.....chump."

 :D

That's my dawg!!! :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Lamonte 1990 on January 01, 2009, 07:25:40 PM
I can't say they aren't musicians.  You have all kinds of skill levels but if you can play, even if only in one key, I can't take that away from you.  Granted transposers are quite limited, but they are still musicians to me. 

Sha-Bingo!!!!

U hit it rite there....
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: smf on January 03, 2009, 07:43:33 PM
You know, I am a transposer.  My skill level is not that great, I'm doing the best I can to teach myself with the help of such great musicians on this website as yourselves.  Although I may not be a "real" musician to some of you, TO GOD BE THE GLORY I am a REAL worshiper, with a REAL heart towards GOD and a REAL heart towards ministry, and in the end, that's all that matters.  What I do, I do it as unto the Lord, and I am believing HIM for the increase.  God bless you all, and may God continue to use you ALL for the edification of the Body of Christ, and for the Advancement of the Kingdom.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: NJDBalla on January 04, 2009, 04:03:18 PM
To me,Transposers are musicians, BUT, they are not keyboardists, which To Me, means one which is skilled at playing a keyboard instrument; i.e. Master Keyboardist...



           Hopefully that made sense ;D,
                                   NJD

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on January 05, 2009, 04:13:53 PM
To me,Transposers are musicians, BUT, they are not keyboardists,

It's the other way around to me man.  They are keyboardists because the keyboard is the instrument they use transpose on. Ain't no luck on an acoustic piano. ;)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on January 05, 2009, 04:18:12 PM
*sings*

This is the thread that never ends. 
Yes it goes on and on my friends
Somebody started up the thread not knowing what it does
And they'll just keep on arguing forever just because

This is the thread that never ends. 
Yes it goes on and on my friends
Somebody started up the thread not knowing what it does
And they'll just keep on arguing forever just because

*transposes*

This is the thread that never ends. 
Yes it goes on and on my friends
Somebody started up the thread not knowing what it does
And they'll just keep on arguing forever just because

*transposes*

This is the thread that never ends. 
Yes it goes on and on my friends
Somebody started up the thread not knowing what it does
And they'll just keep on arguing forever just because...
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on January 05, 2009, 04:22:31 PM
*sings*

This is the thread that never ends. 
Yes it goes on and on my friends
Somebody started up the thread not knowing what it does
And they'll just keep on arguing forever just because

This is the thread that never ends. 
Yes it goes on and on my friends
Somebody started up the thread not knowing what it does
And they'll just keep on arguing forever just because

*transposes*

LMBO!!!  Girl, u almost made me choke when I saw this.  U r too much. :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: BigFoot_BigThumb on January 05, 2009, 04:28:07 PM
You know, I am a transposer.  My skill level is not that great, I'm doing the best I can to teach myself with the help of such great musicians on this website as yourselves.  Although I may not be a "real" musician to some of you, TO GOD BE THE GLORY I am a REAL worshiper, with a REAL heart towards GOD and a REAL heart towards ministry, and in the end, that's all that matters.  What I do, I do it as unto the Lord, and I am believing HIM for the increase.  God bless you all, and may God continue to use you ALL for the edification of the Body of Christ, and for the Advancement of the Kingdom.

Lemme ask you this young man(or lady).  How would you feel if someone transposed the keyboard you had to play on and didn't change it back when done?  Improving on your instrument comes with discipline that you have to be willing to factor into your playing.  Don't settle for what you can do only with a certain "adjustment."  Work towards being the best keyboardist you can be where you can play anything put before you without messing with that doggone button.       
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on January 05, 2009, 04:37:43 PM
It's the other way around to me man.  They are keyboardists because the keyboard is the instrument they use transpose on. Ain't no luck on an acoustic piano. ;)

Exactly. A transposer may be a keyboardist, but they fo sho aint no REAL organist or pianist. When someone calls you to acompany them, and they dont have a keyboard, and they decide to modulate though every key, and you sit there twiddling your thumbs(or destroying the song) , cuz you cant play in but 3 keys....... lets see if you get called back to play for them again.

Lemme ask you this young man(or lady).  How would you feel if someone transposed the keyboard you had to play on and didn't change it back when done?  Improving on your instrument comes with discipline that you have to be willing to factor into your playing.  Don't settle for what you can do only with a certain "adjustment."  Work towards being the best keyboardist you can be where you can play anything put before you without messing with that doggone button.       

I agree.

If you are a beginner, then OK. To me thats still not a legit excuse, but I do understand if you use it in an emergency. But if you've been playing more than 1 or 2 years, then you are just cheating yourself and your growth as a musician.

As for being a "real worshiper", OK, but the musicians in the bible played skillfully, and they prepared other musicians to play skillfully. Transposers are not all that skillful, and are not good role models to up and coming musicians.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: SirTJ on January 05, 2009, 07:11:55 PM
Hmm, chord memorization is not the coolest way to go. My bassist warned me about just relying purely on muscle memory when playing a song. The reason he told me to try and actually hear and understand the progression is that if i should forget what chord comes next, then i am screwed. This has happened to me a few times when i had to rush learn a song. I had just memorized the chord shapes and all. Then when i started playing and forgot ONE chord shape, i fell apart. :)



This is good advice.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 3rd-Day on January 06, 2009, 11:15:06 AM
Not to keep talking about this, but I went to a concert in the bronx recently where one group was up and the guy on boards transposed.  The group that got up after them started and everything was jacked.  They stopped the song...the keyboardist happened to be a popular musician in NYC and he grabbed the mike and blasted the guy who transposed.  It was the funniest thing in the world. 

WORD?!?!?!

"To the wannabe keyboardist who transposed this keyboard: Please reset the board when you're done for the sake of the REAL musicians who play after you.  Go out and cop my DVD and learn somethin.....chump."


 :D

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!? Nah Man!!!   :D   He grabbed the mic and said that?!?! And then plugged his DVD??   OMG!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: lockslie1 on January 06, 2009, 12:21:18 PM
"To the wannabe keyboardist who transposed this keyboard: Please reset the board when you're done for the sake of the REAL musicians who play after you.  Go out and cop my DVD and learn somethin.....chump."
:D

WOW!!!! I hope that didn't happen either. :D :D :D

Seriously......In my opinion everybody has room for improvement and I don't agree with putting people on blast. I play in every key, but I would never look down on someone that didn't know every key whether they've played for 2 or 10 years. It is very important to learn all of your keys, but I can take it up a notch and say learn perfect pitch which would have prevented the "well known musician" from not knowing the keys were transposed in the first place which messed up his group. No musician has it all together to where they should feel they are so great that they need to blast people during concerts or services. He could have waited until after service and had a talk with the guy to give him tips and encouraged him to learn every key.
 

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 3rd-Day on January 06, 2009, 12:34:39 PM
WOW!!!! I hope that didn't happen either. :D :D :D

Seriously......In my opinion everybody has room for improvement and I don't agree with putting people on blast. I play in every key, but I would never look down on someone that didn't know every key whether they've played for 2 or 10 years. It is very important to learn all of your keys, but I can take it up a notch and say learn perfect pitch which would have prevented the "well known musician" from not knowing the keys were transposed in the first place which messed up his group. No musician has it all together to where they should feel they are so great that they need to blast people during concerts or services. He could have waited until after service and had a talk with the guy to give him tips and encouraged him to learn every key.
 


Cosign!!

Dude that had to hurt of strike some kind of nerve especially if was coming from somebody I inspired to play like.  To be put on blast like that.......whew!!  Im all for tough love but....."Go out an cop my DVD and learn somethin....chump!"  at a concert, in the microphone???   ?/?


You know what? All jokes aside, I cant applaud that. That's messed up ........ and im from the Bronx.  :-[

Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: NJDBalla on January 06, 2009, 03:50:52 PM
It's the other way around to me man.  They are keyboardists because the keyboard is the instrument they use transpose on. Ain't no luck on an acoustic piano. ;)
I'm pretty sure thats what i meant to say... who knows? ;)
But yeah they are not musicians, But are keyboardists...
Thx for pointing that out...
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on January 07, 2009, 07:31:26 AM
Im all for tough love but....."Go out an cop my DVD and learn somethin....chump!"  at a concert, in the microphone???   ?/?

Hey 3rd day, I think u got it confused.  That statement is something that RJ says he would've said to the dude, that's not what really happened.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: 3rd-Day on January 08, 2009, 06:20:43 PM
Hey 3rd day, I think u got it confused.  That statement is something that RJ says he would've said to the dude, that's not what really happened.

Wow! Thanks for clearing that up for me.  8)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjohn158 on June 06, 2009, 02:09:28 AM
If a young man or young woman doesn't play in every key...so be it!
Sure everyone should take the time to cultivate their craft, however ability isn't the most important thing.  Whats most important is that a MUSICIAN is in tune with the Holy Spirit!!
If God called u to be a Musician thats what you are..Even if you play in 1 key. 
Those who transpose..like myself...Dont be discouraged. Just take the time to develop your Gift. God gave it so we should polish it!!!
Be more consirned about kingdom building than who plays in every key!!!

God Bless
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: B3Wannabe on June 06, 2009, 02:37:05 AM
Indeed.

Welcome to the site...sjon!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjohn158 on June 06, 2009, 09:05:40 PM
Thank You Sir--This site is blessed!!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Joanne Shelton on September 11, 2009, 02:20:52 PM
I know I'm new on the block, but here goes. Let's say you have no one in the congregation who can play in any key.  Then you have a new person step up who is able to hear music and is willing to learn in order to help the services go forward.  That new person learns in one key at a time, but in the mean time, he/she transposes.  Now, you've given your service because you love the Lord and love music.  I appreciate that person and praise God for sending a willing spirit.  Some of the exprienced artist have such diva-like attitudes that they can be a hinderance to the Spirit's flow because it becomes all about them. This may not be a musician, but it's not what you give or how much.  It's the heart you have when you give it. 

I love music and I love anyone willing to give of themselves to minister to the body.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: yoofi on September 14, 2009, 09:05:54 AM
yes and no because i think there are some trans posers out there who really love the lord. the problem is they are too lazy to sit down and learn their keys. i am in Ghana west Africa and the community am in has a whole lot of cats that are just transposing. i know its not good cos i stopped doing that a long time ago and it has really helped me. we shouldn't really worry about them cas every time you enter a room full of trans posers you would always stand out.shalom
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on September 15, 2009, 09:22:13 PM
Let's not assume that just because someone transposes that they're lazy.  I don't know if it was in this thread or what, but someone said for about 4 straight months (or something like that) he studied his piano and learned to play in every key.  It was his main focus.  Great for him that he has that kind of time, but how many people actually have that time other than grade school kids who have summers off and don't have to work?

I know this lady who is great at piano and she transposes.  She is in the process of learning in different keys but it's taking a very long time because of her hectic schedule and she's being forced to learn songs for the choir and praise team at the drop of a hat at the church she attends.  Should she just bow out until she learns to play in all keys?  That sound really really really really really really really really really stoopid(int).
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on September 15, 2009, 09:27:40 PM
Final Thought:  Transposing doesn't make a musician.  How many keys a person can play in doesn't make a musician.  What it comes down to at then end of the day is if you can play the song.  Sure some musicians are lazy and use tranposing as an out.  For others transposing is a tool that they plan to use temporarily until they learn to play in every key or at least in enough keys to serve their purpose.

When it comes down to it there are only two types of people who aren't musicians:

1) the one that doesn't try

2) the one that turns the volume on the board all the way down and routes a boombox through their amp and pretends to play.

Goodnight and good lock...I mean luck.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on September 15, 2009, 09:36:32 PM
I liken transposers to people who buy frozen dinners, warm them up, then present it to their family like they cooked the meal themselves. Sure the food tastes good, but u didn't cook it, so u have no right to act like u did.

At the end of the day, if u can look in the mirror and be happy with how u choose to use your gift/talent of music, then go on bout ur business.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Zammie on September 16, 2009, 10:05:36 AM
This has come up so many times in my head and I think it's sometimes a product of your environment in the sense that access to learning materials and a piano or keyboard, as the case maybe, challenges you to up your skills or leaves you thinking if you should make drumming your major and not a mere minor instrument. I started playing like 4yrs ago and I'm not 'perfect' in all keys. Now, I feel inadequate when I can't conviniently play in a key and I've not being resting on my oars in that regard but when you play in a church where the best progression you are constrained to play is the 1=4=5 progression how do you improve significantly? Yes, leaving would be right but when your dad is the minister in charge then what? What I do is to learn songs in their original keys ,let my many pianist friends play in any key convenient for them and improve on music theory which I'm actually sound in though playing is a different ball game. And true ,not everyone is a musician but what makes a musician is,from my end, his/her yearning to improve and actually improving. T-block is evidently advanced yet carries the tag "still learning'" into this site and I believe, every other place. I'm here to be whole. I play c,c#,d,d#,f,f#(my best),g,g#,a,a# and b, pretty much all keys you might say but I'm not convenient on all of them and e is one key I have not really explored. I can play in all keys but one; would you then say I am not a musician? I may not be fast on the piano but nothing not extra-complex does not pass me by in music. I am a musician and I transpose....only sometimesthough...very few times. THATS'S MY TAKE
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: bullet1 on October 08, 2009, 10:56:51 PM
I have to chime in on this thread for two reasons.  1.  I transpose.  I am a beginner and there are some keys I just haven't had the time to perfect.  If you hop in E I'm going to transpose straight up!  I mean if that's what you do until you can learn then so be it.  Just as long as you don't allow it to be a crutch your good.  2.  I coach 8 grade girls basketball and I don't bench a player because they can't go left or they can't rebound or something.  I teach them!!!  Honestly if I was that dude at that church and was blasted out like that, I think I would've pulled the plug out of the wall or something.  That's just not cool for anyone to embarrass someone like that!  Lord forgive me but that's just wrong. 
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: JBoo on October 10, 2009, 11:58:16 AM
NO ONE STARTS OFF PLAYING FLUENTLY IN ALL KEYS...IN MY CASE I RECENTLY STOPPED TRANSPOSING LOL BUT IM A DRUMMER AT HEART AND I HAD TO LEARN ON THE SPOT TRAINING ON THE KEYS TO FILL IN FOR THE MUSICIAN WHO LEFT..THERE NO WAY I COULD HAVE MADE IT THROUGH A SERVICE WITHOUT TRANSPOSING...IT TAKES TIME AND EFFORT TO PLAY IN ALL KEYS FLUENTLY>.AND I BET EVERYONE ON HERE HAS TRANSPOSED??WE ALL DO IT AT SOME TIME UNTIL WE GET TO DAT LEVEL
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on October 10, 2009, 01:47:47 PM
AND I BET EVERYONE ON HERE HAS TRANSPOSED??WE ALL DO IT AT SOME TIME UNTIL WE GET TO DAT LEVEL

And I bet u would lose that bet. No one has to transpose, ever. It's up to the individual. There are people to this day who have never transposed anything and u can believe they are on this site.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on October 10, 2009, 01:57:39 PM
And I bet u would lose that bet. No one has to transpose, ever. It's up to the individual. There are people to this day who have never transposed anything and u can believe they are on this site.

Yeah, I was one of those people for a while.  Believe it or not, I just learned what transposing was when I turned 20.  I transposed for a song once when I was in my room farting around, and it didn't feel comfortable.  I just play in whatever key it's in.  Now that I think about it that might make me considered worse than the transposers because while they can't/won't play in all keys they have something that can help them.  With me, if ya'll aren't singing it in the key I'm playing it then ya'll are OOL... Out Of Luck!  I'm sure I could find out how to play it in another key, but not right then and there on the spot.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: berbie on October 10, 2009, 03:35:56 PM
I never transpose because I can't do it very well. I tend to get lost and then try to play chords in the key that the singer is singing in. Of course they don't sound right.  Then I am really lost because the notes don't sound right.

To me, transposing is simply a tool that is available to musicians. Sometines I wish that I could use it well because I really play better in some keys.  There are many reasons why a person might be transposing.  Unless it is known why a person is trsnsposing, it is difficult to accurately place a label on him/her.

If a person plays by ear, and for whatever reason CANNOT learn all keys, can he ever be a musician?  Even though he can SLAM in one or two keys and transpose the rest?  Personally, I think he can.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: violist2009 on October 15, 2009, 12:44:17 PM
God I hate to keep this thread going, please don't wave the ban hammer at me for this, but have to throw in a couple of cents here.  :-\

I personally don't use the transpose function on my board that often mostly because I don't have a need to. I'll use it during rehersals with people who need things transposed on the spot(I have a hard time playing by ear so I use sheet music and its hard enough to read vocal lines and piano lines at the same time to make sure the vocalist is on track.), BUT then after we figure out where he/she wants the song to be at, I'll go back after rehersal and manually transpose it there and learn it in that key. Is this such a bad thing? I honestly think its a great function for on the spot things like this. However, I don't use it during services, because at the church i went to before i was just kinda thrown into playing. EVERYTHING WAS IN A DIFFERENT KEY THAN WHAT I KNEW THE SONG IN. And to add insult to injury I was on a Yamaha Acoustic Grand. No transpose button on that one, so I had to quickly learn to transpose things.

Now back to point, I would say that "transposers" are real musicians, because who is to say that they aren't? I agree that you should be able to play in every key, but thats not what music is truly about. Its not all about theroy and manual transposition vs the keyboard function. Its about worshipping God with the annoniting that He has given us. Music is mearly the expression of emotion through pitch. And if you absloutly need the advancement of modern technology to get to the correct pitch(though seriously guys its a piano, quite easy to transpose on really, just move your fingers up or down how many half steps you need to go. Mind the black keys of course ;D)then by all means, USE IT. Does it take away from the annoniting of the player if they do use it? Does the audience care if you used the transpose function or not?

So sorry for contributing to the never ending topic here, but just had to say something.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on October 15, 2009, 06:24:37 PM
...and lock  ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on October 16, 2009, 04:22:24 AM
This thread will never die. Even after the Rapture, this thread will still keep going.  :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on October 16, 2009, 06:10:29 PM
...and lock ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on October 16, 2009, 06:18:27 PM
...and lock ;D

?/?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on October 16, 2009, 06:34:43 PM
...and lock ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on October 16, 2009, 07:28:38 PM
...and lock ;D

If you dont like the thread, dont open it, and let everyone else continue their conversation. :)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Bweezle on October 17, 2009, 12:00:15 AM
my 2 cent is that. I am still learning as we all are. sometimes all i have time to do is learn the song in its recorded key. with that being said on sunday i may have to transpose if the song causes for modulation!!  i have been told you got to what you have to do sometimes to get thru service point blank. the spirit of God still moves and souls are still saved which is why I play. I know that I still have work to do and I go bk and learn the modulations so the next time I dont have to transpose.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: SisterCM on October 17, 2009, 09:52:48 AM
I think the intent of this thread is to encourage the up coming musicians not to rely totally on transposing, but to learn to play in all keys. If you are in the very beginning level, don’t start out transposing. 
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on October 17, 2009, 02:50:45 PM
I think the intent of this thread is to encourage the up coming musicians not to rely totally on transposing, but to learn to play in all keys. If you are in the very beginning level, don’t start out transposing. 

I believe the intent is to stop transposing from ever becoming a valid alternative to hard work and dedication of learning an instrument, mainly the keyboard.

If you dont like the thread, dont open it, and let everyone else continue their conversation. :)

That!!! ;) :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on October 17, 2009, 05:13:05 PM
We guitarists don't have this problem.  :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on October 17, 2009, 05:54:31 PM
We guitarists don't have this problem.  :D

Amen!   ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on October 17, 2009, 06:07:28 PM
We guitarists don't have this problem.  :D

Yes yall do. ?/?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on October 17, 2009, 06:39:02 PM
We guitarists don't have this problem.  :D

Yeah right. ::) :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: organman88 on October 18, 2009, 07:29:40 PM
NO ONE STARTS OFF PLAYING FLUENTLY IN ALL KEYS...IN MY CASE I RECENTLY STOPPED TRANSPOSING LOL BUT IM A DRUMMER AT HEART AND I HAD TO LEARN ON THE SPOT TRAINING ON THE KEYS TO FILL IN FOR THE MUSICIAN WHO LEFT..THERE NO WAY I COULD HAVE MADE IT THROUGH A SERVICE WITHOUT TRANSPOSING...IT TAKES TIME AND EFFORT TO PLAY IN ALL KEYS FLUENTLY>.AND I BET EVERYONE ON HERE HAS TRANSPOSED??WE ALL DO IT AT SOME TIME UNTIL WE GET TO DAT LEVEL
I NEVER TRANSPOSED A DAY IN MY LIFE >:( but you are right no one starts off playing fluently in all keys and it doesnt help when all the gospel songs are in Ab either  :D its just most musicians especially gospel musicians get put out to play at an early state and they get comfortable with it because they can get by
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sjonathan02 on October 19, 2009, 06:35:03 AM
This thread will never die. Even after the Rapture, this thread will still keep going.  :D

So it appears. ::) :-\
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Incognegro on October 19, 2009, 09:50:14 AM
Dear God.  Make the hurting stop.

In Jesus' Name.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Gaxton on October 23, 2009, 11:32:40 AM
Wow!

In all sincerity ,most of the people here
condemning people who use transpose button
are the ones who need re-orientation in their psyche.

1st of all, consider the fact that the transposer guy

may not even have enough time to rehearse songs in all keys.

So what do u expect him to do? He should back off the keyboard on sunday cos he

doesn't know how to play the song in its original key; c'mon guys.

Its very possible the guy doesn't know much about theory on how to play several keys and BTW all of u crying that a TRANSPOSER is this or that... How many people can boldly point to you and say thank God becos you helped developed their play


Don't have much to say for now but let us learn to address issues as they are.

God bless
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on November 06, 2009, 01:14:30 AM
After years of exile, I return & this thread still tops the list--whoosh!!
Nothing said in the past 3 pages has not been stated before.

(just coz I had to say something ;D)  I am in a new city, getting back to playing after an involuntary break- I just couriered my board & am backing at this new church- the main player transposes, but that doesn't stop me from learning certain things from him just because he transposes. It's a very different style of playing, so a great learning curve for me.

I choose not to transpose & practise more in all keys.

Guys, it's a personal choice- we are all musaicians  :)

I don't bash a guy/ gal for transposing, but I tell them why it's not my strong point if they enquire.


Now let's play & personally strive to learn as much as we can & encourage beginning folks to learn in the most comprehensive manner & produce offspring that will surpass our weaknesses & be "complete" players.

Under13, there was a thread talking about a "complete musician" or something of that effect right? :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on November 06, 2009, 01:21:21 AM

Under13, there was a thread talking about a "complete musician" or something of that effect right? :D

yo no se.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on November 06, 2009, 03:32:12 AM
yo no se.

Ok, i think it's all in this thread. Yo man, wyh do yuo repsond in Marandin? :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Metronome on November 06, 2009, 11:33:18 AM
Wow!

In all sincerity ,most of the people here
condemning people who use transpose button
are the ones who need re-orientation in their psyche.

1st of all, consider the fact that the transposer guy

may not even have enough time to rehearse songs in all keys.

So what do u expect him to do? He should back off the keyboard on sunday cos he

doesn't know how to play the song in its original key; c'mon guys.

Its very possible the guy doesn't know much about theory on how to play several keys and BTW all of u crying that a TRANSPOSER is this or that... How many people can boldly point to you and say thank God becos you helped developed their play


Don't have much to say for now but let us learn to address issues as they are.

God bless

But at the same time why does a musician get a free pass?? Does the preacher get a pass for preaching the same message everysunday just using different words??

Transposing is the worst crutch of all time.  You get nowhere fast using it.  BEcause EVERYONE ive ever know to transpose has had that "oh crap" moment where they got publically blasted...

You wanna be a beast? stop transposing

You wanna do ya church justice? stop transposing

You wanna have a sense of fulfillment at the end  then come back to LGM and be like "yall told me so"?

STOP TRANSPOSING!!!!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on November 06, 2009, 09:22:30 PM
But at the same time why does a musician get a free pass?? Does the preacher get a pass for preaching the same message everysunday just using different words??

Transposing is the worst crutch of all time.  You get nowhere fast using it.  BEcause EVERYONE ive ever know to transpose has had that "oh crap" moment where they got publically blasted...

You wanna be a beast? stop transposing

You wanna do ya church justice? stop transposing

You wanna have a sense of fulfillment at the end  then come back to LGM and be like "yall told me so"?

STOP TRANSPOSING!!!!!

A-to-da-Mezen!!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: aerhodes on November 07, 2009, 07:34:52 PM
Since this is a question geared toward the individual to answer for themselves, yall already know what I'm gonna say:  REAL MUSICIANS PLAY IN EVERY KEY!!!

So, to answer the question, transposers are not REAL musicians.  They are still "musicians" to some degree, but outside of their key, they are "fakers".  In the past I've said that transposers aren't musicians at all, but I have to take that one back.

The way I approached this question is with attitude, heart, behavior, and all that stuff aside.  I looked strictly at playing ability.  Like 4hisglory said, if u can play in only one key and u do just that, then u are in fact a REAL musician, who at that particular point in time can only play in one key.  As soon as u hit dat T-button, u cross the line into the "faker" category for that particular key.  Does that make sense to anyone?


I truly find all the responses interesting especially this one.  I can speak from experience as a Minister of Music, it’s often frustrating when you have someone who has to transpose everything, but on the other hand I have had even worst experiences with nasty musicians who can play in every key. I think a real musician is someone who realizes the that the craft is never perfected and is a stage that always changes as time progress. I had a unique situation recently. A young man came to my service and he was a transposer but he could read music. I have another music who could play in every key but couldn't read a thing. So who is the real musician? A music major who can't play the piano in every key but plays every other instrument in the band well and reads music or a man who plays in every key with ease but can’t read a note? So when you speak of ability, what defines the borders of what musical ability  to say what a REAL musician is?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on November 08, 2009, 02:36:37 AM

I truly find all the responses interesting especially this one.  I can speak from experience as a Minister of Music, it’s often frustrating when you have someone who has to transpose everything, but on the other hand I have had even worst experiences with nasty musicians who can play in every key. I think a real musician is someone who realizes the that the craft is never perfected and is a stage that always changes as time progress. I had a unique situation recently. A young man came to my service and he was a transposer but he could read music. I have another music who could play in every key but couldn't read a thing. So who is the real musician? A music major who can't play the piano in every key but plays every other instrument in the band well and reads music or a man who plays in every key with ease but can’t read a note? So when you speak of ability, what defines the borders of what musical ability  to say what a REAL musician is?

good question. It really depends on the arena your in. But in the black church, you need to be able to know every key and know it with confidence. Example: I was at a funeral today, and the guy playing for the soloist (she sang "the battle is not yours") was reading the music instead of playing by ear. All throughout her solo he was flipping pages back and forth, and I guess he didnt have em in the right order, but when she modulated, he couldnt keep up at all, probably because he was lost in the music.  and knowing him, I just knew that would happen

I just share that to show that in many situations reading and not being able to transpose (the real way)  is a hinderance, and in some situations not being able to read music and will be a hinderance. So like I said, it depends on the environment you are playing in.

IMO a real real musician is one who is versatile and is able to read and play by ear (without hitting the T button)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on November 08, 2009, 10:19:53 AM
Agreemento U13. Im in a new church now & the current player is taking advantage of fact that im available for now, today he told me to up the game and learn all their songs with very weird progressions. So when learning the songs i use notes, but at church there are no notes & i allow the lead singer to start the song in any key because their biggest problem is an inability to keep the key you give them-hence another aspect of the importance of versatility. 70% of the time its E or F!

Another problem: when the choir guys write the key a song was sung in, they write '-3', meaning i have to check each time if da guy is playing in G or some other key. The least someone transposing can do is call a key by its name, not minus this,plus that etc.

peace fam.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on November 08, 2009, 04:13:26 PM
Hi musallio!  ^_^  Long time, no see!  How's it going?
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on November 09, 2009, 08:32:53 AM
Hi musallio!  ^_^  Long time, no see!  How's it going?


Hi Koda :)

Yeah, it's been a sad period for me--I was away from practising, playing & more importantly, my fam!! :(

I finally managed to settle in this new place, couriered my board, identified a church where I could assist in the music department etc.
I'm glad to see that you guys are still keeping the family strong.

Saying I missed you guys really isn't enough to express my grief- you guys are really my heartbeat!


To everyone who has not seen this (http://www.hearandplay.com/mtreport.pdf), please download & read.  I was really assessing my areas of lack as I read through it.
I know soon enough I'll be as good as you Koda ;D ;)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kodacolor on November 09, 2009, 03:12:50 PM
Hi Koda :)

Yeah, it's been a sad period for me--I was away from practising, playing & more importantly, my fam!! :(

I finally managed to settle in this new place, couriered my board, identified a church where I could assist in the music department etc.
I'm glad to see that you guys are still keeping the family strong.


Saying I missed you guys really isn't enough to express my grief- you guys are really my heartbeat!


To everyone who has not seen this ([url]http://www.hearandplay.com/mtreport.pdf[/url]), please download & read.  I was really assessing my areas of lack as I read through it.
I know soon enough I'll be as good as you Koda ;D ;)


IRT the part in bold:  Praise God!

Thanks for the link! I hope to start reading it in depth sometimes this week, but not today because I have a short story to finish writing for class that I need to email in by the end of the night.  :-\
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: robdown on November 10, 2009, 10:52:41 AM

To everyone who has not seen this ([url]http://www.hearandplay.com/mtreport.pdf[/url]), please download & read.  I was really assessing my areas of lack as I read through it.
I know soon enough I'll be as good as you Koda ;D ;)
that's a real good read! thanks for sharing!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on November 11, 2009, 03:05:04 AM
Koda:

I hope you aced that story & get a 1st sis :)


RobD:

I'm glad if you find it useful- I just get excited & want to share when I see something that could potentially make someone better in anything good  ;)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sonicfoxbody on November 17, 2009, 07:45:28 AM
But at the same time why does a musician get a free pass?? Does the preacher get a pass for preaching the same message everysunday just using different words??

Transposing is the worst crutch of all time.  You get nowhere fast using it.  BEcause EVERYONE ive ever know to transpose has had that "oh crap" moment where they got publically blasted...

You wanna be a beast? stop transposing

You wanna do ya church justice? stop transposing

You wanna have a sense of fulfillment at the end  then come back to LGM and be like "yall told me so"?

STOP TRANSPOSING!!!!!
I can admit, I'm not the best organist out there by far but, I can play in every key. However, I don't like to play in some keys. We all know that every one of us musicians out there have our comfort keys. On to the reason for my post;

About being blasted, lol (the reason for my post). I had a guy who played the keys usually took him a while to catch on to a song but when he got it he got (or at least it seemed). My guitar player always told me "I think that dude is transposing" But I never knew for sure since he sat on the other side of the church. Finally we went on program to another church, the day before the pastor called me and wondered why this guy always have to take his keyboard with him, I didn't have an answer. We get to the other church and there's no room for him to add his keyboard in the crammed musicians area. Comes to find out he could only play in Eb. The pastor referred to him as an embarrassment. He was nothing without that button.



On a side note, I usually open a can of worms with this one, if I'm expected to play in every key I think real singers should be able to sing in every key.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on November 17, 2009, 09:17:45 AM
On a side note, I usually open a can of worms with this one, if I'm expected to play in every key I think real singers should be able to sing in every key.

This is open for debate cuz some peole don't have the voice range to sing a song like it's supposed to be sung in every key. On the keyboad u can play in every key cuz it's available. With voices, u can only work wit what u got and that's it.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on November 19, 2009, 02:11:40 AM
I think a real musician is one who does not try to pretend he is something he's not.

I love that. But I think that delves more into the question of character. But a very different & solid perspective to it.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Fenix on November 19, 2009, 10:34:41 AM
Just...die!!!!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: FenderJazzGuy on November 19, 2009, 10:51:33 AM
WOW, I just happened upon this topic. Let me give my situation. Im truly a bass player. I started going to a church that has a full band. The only slot that was open was secondary keys. Now, being a musician I could either sit back and not play since the bass chair was taken. Or, play keys since im decent in Db. Well I tool the keys route. a few weeks later the main keyboardist decided to leave the church. So now im the only keyboardist. I'd much rather be playing bass but Im was more needed on keys. I transpose every Sunday. There are a few songs I can play in Eb but mostly in Db. I do have some knowledge in theory because of playing bass but I still lean to transposing. At my church we do alot of songs with the 1 4 5 and occasional minor 6 progressions. So I can play some songs in a few of the white keys but when It comes to flowing in worship, I can only do that in Db. Am I wrong? My heart really is not in playing keys so I just do what I can. I do sometimes feel I need to practice in all the keys but then I feel like I'm taking practice away from my bass.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: ibili365 on November 20, 2009, 01:09:32 AM
Yes and no.

Yes- see midi's answer + I think God would rather use a transposer with a heart for worship, than a "beast" with a bad attitude and a poor relationship with Relationship with him.
 

No- If you've been playing piano for 5, 10, 20 years, and you cant sit down on a real piano or organ and play in whatever key is thrown at you, then you evidently dont take playing seriously

Get a point
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: musallio on November 27, 2009, 01:42:27 AM
WOW, I just happened upon this topic. Let me give my situation. Im truly a bass player. I started going to a church that has a full band. The only slot that was open was secondary keys. Now, being a musician I could either sit back and not play since the bass chair was taken. Or, play keys since im decent in Db. Well I tool the keys route. a few weeks later the main keyboardist decided to leave the church. So now im the only keyboardist. I'd much rather be playing bass but Im was more needed on keys. I transpose every Sunday. There are a few songs I can play in Eb but mostly in Db. I do have some knowledge in theory because of playing bass but I still lean to transposing. At my church we do alot of songs with the 1 4 5 and occasional minor 6 progressions. So I can play some songs in a few of the white keys but when It comes to flowing in worship, I can only do that in Db. Am I wrong? My heart really is not in playing keys so I just do what I can. I do sometimes feel I need to practice in all the keys but then I feel like I'm taking practice away from my bass.


Answer a brother guys :D

I really think that you shouldn't really be cracking your head over playing in all keys- because:
i) Your heart is not really into playing keys/ the piano- you're merely filling a "temp" gap.
ii) You have bass to practice, which is more aligned to your goals and vision- just make sure you master that :)
iii) Most importantly, the service is able to flow because of your ability to play in Db.

But

Mna, if you can make means, do try to learn all the keys- in case you end up falling in love with them & playing them for the next 50 years ;D ;)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: DREICO on December 06, 2009, 12:22:31 AM
now this subject has been going on for a very long time... So let the transposer say something!!!! Yes i transpose and i love to do it. AS A MATTER OF FACT IM GLAD MY MOTIF CAME WITH A TRANSPOSE BUTTON>>> but currently imlearning to play in other keys thanks to LGM and the family. Some of us musicians have no choice to transpose, because you have other musicians in your city that dont help and love to criticize. But in time I'll be one of the musicians who doesnt transpose anymore. But i will never say a transposer is not a real musican, because i look at the way God taught me to play. He had to make it simple, but through his Favor im now ready to grow. IN LEAVING I ASK ANOTHER QUESTION>> people who drive automatics instead of sticks..are they real drivers? JUst because someone chooses to use the technology doesnt make them any less than anyone else.. SO i thank the Lord for those of you who dont transpose, because you continue to set the standards that keep us fake musicians try to be real!!!!

LOL:)
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on December 06, 2009, 01:16:19 AM
N LEAVING I ASK ANOTHER QUESTION>> people who drive automatics instead of sticks..are they real drivers? JUst because someone chooses to use the technology doesnt make them any less than anyone else.. SO i thank the Lord for those of you who dont transpose, because you continue to set the standards that keep us fake musicians try to be real!!!!

LOL:)

I see where you are going, but I think thats different. Driving is not an art or a craft to most people. Now if you said "race car driver" then yes, if they cant drive a stick, they arent a real driver. :D :D

I dont think most people have problems with casual players who transpose, but when you are a pro, you are supposed to know your craft, and playing in every key is one of the most basic parts of playing. the bible said for musicians to play skillfully, not just play any old way.


Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Skizo Frene on December 07, 2009, 09:56:26 AM
My church had a concert on Saturday.

A visiting group came to sing, and they had their own musician.

I move from the keyboard to the Organ (my favorite instrument), but when their musician got to the keyboard he asked me to come over.  I walk over to him and he asks, in barely over a whisper, "where's the transpose"?

There was one other time when I found the transpose feature on the church keyboard, and that was to show this same guy how to find it in the past.   :D

My question is, what happens if the group sang a song that required him to modulate? 

Would he have to reach over and try to change the transpose mid-song? 

What happens if he goofs why trying to modulate it up/down and has to stop playing for a second?


What would've happened if they came and found out that all we had was a piano?

What if I didn't know where the transpose feature was?

Would he be able to play?  Would he have to get off the keyboard and walk over to the choir director to tell her he can't play because he can't find the transpose?

For God's sake, practice in every key.   :-\
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: dseaberry on December 07, 2009, 10:25:37 AM
Personally, I have played for 27 years and I have never transposed. This is partly due to the fact that I started out on piano and, as we all know, there is no transpose button on an acoustic piano. To each their own but I do feel that the transpose button is a crutch. Anything you can do in one key you can learn to do in ANY key. O course, like any other musician, I have favorite keys but I play in all of them. It only takes one occassion of going to church with a Hammond or piano and not being able to transpose to truly cure someone. It is embarrassing. My thing is this. Do what you can in the present but focus on learning your craft. Push yourself past your comfortablities and maximize your potential on your chosen instrument. If you need to transpose now, then transpose. But practice in the other keys and develop your proficiency. In music, as in life, you only excel when you push yourself past your comfort zone. Be blessed and keep playing.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: churchyreal on April 23, 2010, 02:55:35 PM
I just had to bring this up being this is one of the most controversial issues in music industry.

I felt so bad this past Sunday for this musician who came in. We had male chorus anniversary and the musician (couldn't tell if it was a he or she  :-X) was wanting the piano transposed. I honestly didn't know how because it's kind of complicated to transpose it. The musician even asked if the organ had transpose on it. The musician said that he/she plays all their songs in Ab. I was like "I wonder how T-Block would respond to that."  ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on April 24, 2010, 12:54:32 PM
I was like "I wonder how T-Block would respond to that."  ;D

You already know. ;)

If you know how the tranpose button works, then it's cool to just tell the visiting musician how to do it. But, make sure when they done, reset it.
_______________________________________ ___________________

True story:

I was at this church last Friday cuz my mom had to preach. The church we were visiting had a double stack keyboard. I'm not really used to playing them, but I welcomed the challenge. Anyway, I go to play on one of the keyboards and it was cool. However, once I started playing on the other keyboard, I noticed that the 2 weren't sounding right together. How about, the house musician had one keyboard in one key and the other keyboard in a totally different key.

I was like W.I.T.W.? Oh, I called him up quick and told asked him to just reset both of them. I mean how disrespectful can you get by not telling me that the 2 keyboards were in 2 totally different keys. I was mad, but I kept it moving. Some people need to just get on the grind and stop being lazy.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Blessingss on April 28, 2010, 04:49:36 AM
Hey fellas pls dont kick me out here. Well I started playing when I didnt know the name of a single key on the keyboard, a scale was just a completely different world and all such 'other things'.

Now I have almost all the basics and I happen to love theory behind everything that I do. Well I don't play descently in every key at the moment but the thing is: I dont see the reason why people can keep on wanting to play 1 or 2 or 4 keys when they have all the tools and time to practice-and people in this community to help them.

I'm also really confused why people want to play in those few keys beacase I believe if you have just the basic music theory, take what ever you play in 1 key to all the 12 keys. The number system, the scale degree chords (even the scales themselves) e.t.c, can allow even beginners like us to do this. Learning a new fingering must be interesting on its own, so let's go for what ever it takes to play in every key.

It's plain & clear that playing in every key breaks the limitation of chording since (somebody will agree with me) when ever you 'mess up' with something new in music, you will always come up with great ideas to help you improve in that first key and you take it to the other keys, so the cycle keeps going on and on.

Ladies and gentlemen let me speak my foolishness once: "Music was created to be done in 12 keys, so anything done otherwise will always lead to imperfection"

I told you I dont play in every key yet, I played in that Ab for a long time, I didnt know how to do anything else anyways But now that I know I've to do things the right way. I know you are all not Swazis but I think this country slogan can help all of  us in this case "There's no hurry in Swaziland" ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sonicfoxbody on April 28, 2010, 07:45:59 AM
You already know. ;)

If you know how the tranpose button works, then it's cool to just tell the visiting musician how to do it. But, make sure when they done, reset it.
_______________________________________ ___________________

True story:

I was at this church last Friday cuz my mom had to preach. The church we were visiting had a double stack keyboard. I'm not really used to playing them, but I welcomed the challenge. Anyway, I go to play on one of the keyboards and it was cool. However, once I started playing on the other keyboard, I noticed that the 2 weren't sounding right together. How about, the house musician had one keyboard in one key and the other keyboard in a totally different key.

I was like W.I.T.W.? Oh, I called him up quick and told asked him to just reset both of them. I mean how disrespectful can you get by not telling me that the 2 keyboards were in 2 totally different keys. I was mad, but I kept it moving. Some people need to just get on the grind and stop being lazy.
something similar happened to me a few weeks ago. We were on program at another church and it was some sort of spiritual soul bowl. 4 different churches involved, each had to sing 1 song and their pastor preach a 15 minute sermon. Well, I had my youth there, I went to play a song in F as soon as I started playing it my bass player looked at me like uhhhh no, I knew it sounded off as well. I let it ride for just that song, while the pastor was preaching I couldn't find the transpose button for the life of me, its an older clavinova with some of the buttons/letters rubbed off. The guy who played it before me seriously kept ignoring me...... Inconsiderate musicians, gotta love 'em.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on April 28, 2010, 10:05:17 AM
Ladies and gentlemen let me speak my foolishness once: "Music was created to be done in 12 keys, so anything done otherwise will always lead to imperfection"

15 keys (12 playbable + 3 enharmonics), lol. I agree wit you man 100%!!! :D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Blessingss on April 29, 2010, 01:32:20 AM
15 keys (12 playbable + 3 enharmonics), lol. I agree wit you man 100%!!! :D

Hey T u've got to teach me something here, I wonder why I've always missed that in theory-I knew that when ever I stumble you wouldn't let me fall.

God bless you.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on April 29, 2010, 03:18:41 AM
Hey T u've got to teach me something here, I wonder why I've always missed that in theory-I knew that when ever I stumble you wouldn't let me fall.

God bless you.

The word enharmonic means the same keys on keyboard, but spelled different on paper. For example, the note Bb can also be named A#. Both of those notes are the same note on the keyboard, but one is spelled with a flat and the other one is spelled with sharp. Same for some of the keys. Here are all the keys:

C

C#/Db  *enharmonic

D

Eb

E

F

F#/Gb  *enharmonic

G

Ab

A

Bb

B/Cb *enharmonic


If you add up each individual key, you get a total of 15. I've played music that has been written in each of those 15 keys. A lot of people are more comfortable with either flats or sharps, so when it comes to those enharmonic keys, they choose which one they want to write in. Other times, you look at the chords of the whole piece to pick the best key to write in.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Blessingss on April 30, 2010, 01:18:10 AM
Got ya, I'm adding this to my library. Thank you so much T, this one of the most valuable information you always bless us with.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: kochukochu on May 03, 2010, 02:36:33 PM
I think, it?s a helpful topic. I like this topic. I want know some helpful things from this side. It fresh my mind and experience. So lots of thanks for sharing this information with me.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: Blessingss on September 07, 2010, 02:55:59 AM
Recently I watched Kirk Whalum's Gospel According To Jazz Chapter III and I discovered that the are some things you wont ever do at anytime if you dont play in every key, And since that day I started to do everything in every key.

The bounderies that we always had; getting bored, feeling that we' not progressing even if we' ve got so much material from around here has always been caused by the limits of thinking in one or few keys, so if you're just starting out, never make the favourite key mistake but develop the 'every key habit'

God bless you everyone.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: B3Wannabe on September 07, 2010, 09:04:23 AM
The word enharmonic means the same keys on keyboard, but spelled different on paper. For example, the note Bb can also be named A#. Both of those notes are the same note on the keyboard, but one is spelled with a flat and the other one is spelled with sharp. Same for some of the keys. Here are all the keys:

C

C#/Db  *enharmonic

D

Eb

E

F

F#/Gb  *enharmonic

G

Ab

A

Bb

B/Cb *enharmonic


If you add up each individual key, you get a total of 15. I've played music that has been written in each of those 15 keys. A lot of people are more comfortable with either flats or sharps, so when it comes to those enharmonic keys, they choose which one they want to write in. Other times, you look at the chords of the whole piece to pick the best key to write in.

There were instruments with 24 notes. C# and Db didn't sound the same. It wasn't until the 1800's, if I remember correctly, that they settled on 12 notes.


I see where you are going, but I think thats different. Driving is not an art or a craft to most people. Now if you said "race car driver" then yes, if they cant drive a stick, they arent a real driver. :D :D

I dont think most people have problems with casual players who transpose, but when you are a pro, you are supposed to know your craft, and playing in every key is one of the most basic parts of playing. the bible said for musicians to play skillfully, not just play any old way.

I agree with the other guy. A keyboard is not a piano, like a Hammond is not a pipe organ. They're different instruments. You can be a musician and only learn on a keyboard, if you ask me. It's just, like any other craftsman, you need to bring your own tools, if you're asked to perform.

It's like saying that one isn't a photographer, because they edit their photos in photoshop, and can't get the same results from a camera. There are some things that a pitchbender, modulation wheel, and transpose allow a keyboardist to do that are impossible on a normal piano.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on September 07, 2010, 10:17:35 AM


I agree with the other guy. A keyboard is not a piano, like a Hammond is not a pipe organ. They're different instruments. You can be a musician and only learn on a keyboard, if you ask me. It's just, like any other craftsman, you need to bring your own tools, if you're asked to perform.

It's like saying that one isn't a photographer, because they edit their photos in photoshop, and can't get the same results from a camera. There are some things that a pitchbender, modulation wheel, and transpose allow a keyboardist to do that are impossible on a normal piano.

As for being a keyboardist, I see your point but I disagree. We should want to be the best we can be. If I'm at a Department Store and I run into Fred Hammond and tell him I'm a keyboardist and he wants to hear me as he's looking for someone to tour with  and  he asks me to play the piano there to see what I got, and  he sings something easy in the key of B, and I cant follow him, I'm not getting the gig, All because I couldnt rely on a bunch of electronic tricks to play basic chords in a certain key. My point is as a pro, you should be able to play a real piano.  I also think that we should all be able to make our way around Hammonds as well as Pipe organs....not saying we all need to master each one, but you never know when you may be somewhere and be called to play. When that happens to me I dont wanna be looking at the pipe organ scratching my head like a doofus.

Like I said I'm talking about pros who get paid, not someone who just casually plays.

As for people bringing their own tools, I've seen musicians (usually old people) bring their $99 casios to a church, and honestly they look kinda silly when there is a top of the line Motif sitting there. :D

As for your photographer analogy, I dont think it really that really applies.  He/she still needs to know aperture, shutter speed, ISO and their effects among other things. If they dont know those basic things, they may as well be considered the transposers of photography. lol
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on September 07, 2010, 10:30:04 AM
As for people bringing their own tools, I've seen musicians (usually old people) bring their $99 casios to a church, and honestly they look kinda silly when there is a top of the line Motif sitting there. :D

That means NOTHING. So what u got a top of the line keyboard, if I can't use it then to me it's garbage. If they feel more comfortable on they $99 keyboard, then that's just them. It's all in how u use a keyboard that truly makes the difference. BTJM!
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on September 07, 2010, 10:37:14 AM
That means NOTHING. So what u got a top of the line keyboard, if I can't use it then to me it's garbage. If they feel more comfortable on they $99 keyboard, then that's just them. It's all in how u use a keyboard that truly makes the difference. BTJM!

My point is, as a pro you should be able to play just about anything that's put in front of you (within reason). That means you should educate yourself on how to get to the basic piano sounds on the motif, fantom triton etc... but you dont have to agree...
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on September 07, 2010, 10:44:22 AM
My point is, as a pro you should be able to play just about anything that's put in front of you (within reason). That means you should educate yourself on how to get to the basic piano sounds on the motif, fantom triton etc... but you dont have to agree...

That's cool, i kinda agree with that, in terms of a pro. I can play on anything (except an organ right now) cuz as soon as I get to a board, I'm looking for sounds, lol.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: B3Wannabe on September 07, 2010, 01:47:13 PM
I suck when I play acoustic piano sounds on a keyboard without weighted keys. I ALSO suck when I play a keyboard without a sustain pedal. I absolutely need my sustain pedal! LOL

I think the reason we downplay someone that is solely a keyboardist, is because of our own need to feel better than them. BTJM. I know I encourage people to not transpose. I even give a couple friends heartache over using it, but when it really boils down to it, it doesn't really matter....to me.

If you shoot in raw, you don't need to know any of that, as long as you can get something captured.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: under13 on September 07, 2010, 04:32:37 PM

If you shoot in raw, you don't need to know any of that, as long as you can get something captured.

Not quite. You cant change your aperture in photoshop. If you take a group photo at f1.4 and only the first row of people are in focus, theres not much you can do in Post processing. Same with shutter speed. Yeah, you can use Auto mode, but the camera often chooses settings that dont work for what you need to do. :P


I suck when I play acoustic piano sounds on a keyboard without weighted keys. I ALSO suck when I play a keyboard without a sustain pedal. I absolutely need my sustain pedal! LOL





I think the reason we downplay someone that is solely a keyboardist, is because of our own need to feel better than them. BTJM.
[/quote]

I dont see it like that....I dont even see what we're talking about as downplaying someone...Well I guess that depends on the person's motives...



Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: B3Wannabe on September 07, 2010, 04:57:34 PM
Not quite. You cant change your aperture in photoshop. If you take a group photo at f1.4 and only the first row of people are in focus, theres not much you can do in Post processing. Same with shutter speed. Yeah, you can use Auto mode, but the camera often chooses settings that dont work for what you need to do. :P


Indeed that is true. ;D ;D ;D ;D

The analogy was small anyway. LOL

I dont see it like that....I dont even see what we're talking about as downplaying someone...Well I guess that depends on the person's motives...

The title of this thread says, "Are transposers musicians?" I think that's downplaying.

I say they are, and that it is even possible to be a "professional musician", if you're a transposer, as all you have to do is make music your career. Expert, no. Master, no. Professional, possible.
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: sfday on September 09, 2010, 03:26:25 PM
you are talking about transposers there are 2 different kind of transposers if I am correct there is the one that uses the button and it transposes and then there is that one who can transpose by knowing their key signatures and move to whatever key they need to move to correct me if  i'm wrong I can't play and that's all my fault but that's another story  :D forgive my run on sentences   ;D
Title: Re: Are Tranposers Musicians?
Post by: T-Block on September 09, 2010, 04:22:16 PM
you are talking about transposers there are 2 different kind of transposers if I am correct there is the one that uses the button and it transposes and then there is that one who can transpose by knowing their key signatures and move to whatever key they need to move to correct me if  i'm wrong I can't play and that's all my fault but that's another story  :D forgive my run on sentences   ;D

On this board, when we mention "transposers", we're mainly talking about the people who use the transpose button because they can only play in one key. This is the kind of person of which this thread is addressing.

As you can see, there are 15 pages of varying viewpoints on the subject.