LearnGospelMusic.com Community
Style => Jazz => Topic started by: DaNatiMaestro on December 08, 2007, 10:13:38 AM
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Hey folks.. you thought I forgot didn't you?? No, I was waiting on just the right chord and I think I found a good one!! It is the Dominant 7th Flat 13 Sharp 9 chord.
You would use this chord as a passing chord to get to another chord within a progression. This would also be an altered chord because we've altered the 13th by flatting it and the 9th by sharping it.
Let's look at this chord:
Eb7(b13 #9) LH/RH = Eb/GCbDbF#
Chord breakdown wise: in the LH you have the Root, in the RH you have the 3,b13,b7,#9
A note here.. b13 is equivalent to #5, so in the key of Eb.. b13 = Cb or B, #5 = Bb(#) or B.. they are the same note but for the purposes of this post we'll call that note a b13.
How would you use this chord?
In a major 2-5-1 progression use this chord as a substitute for the 5 chord:
in the Key of Ab a normal 2-5-1 progression would be:
LH/RH NUMBER BREAKDOWN Chord Name
Bb/AbCDbF 1/b7-9-b3-5 Bbm9
Eb/GBbDbF 1/3-5-b7-9 Eb9
Ab/GBbCEb 1/7-9-3-5 Abmaj9
Remember that I'm adding the 9th freely here to add some color to these chords.
Here is that same 2-5-1 progression with the dom7b13#9 added
again in the key of Ab, the substitution is going to happen on the 5 chord.. we're changing it from a Eb9 to Eb7b13#9.
LH/RH NUMBER BREAKDOWN Chord Name
Bb/AbCDbF 1/b7-9-b3-5 Bbm9
Eb/GCbDbF# 1/3-b13-b7-#9 Eb7b13#9
AbG/BbCEbG 1-7/9-3-5-7 Abmaj9
note: on that Abmaj9 here added the G on top to have a smooth voice leading as you can see that top note or melody note is moving chromatically from F-F#-G that sounds really good to the ear!
Play the original progression and then play it with the change and hear how smooth the progression gets.
You can use this chord as a passing chord to get to the Imaj7 or Idom7 or..... Imin7!!!!! I'll post that minor progression a lil later..
Here is the 7b13#9 chord in every key around the circle of 4th/5ths. This is how you should practice every chord to really get them under your hands. If you print this out, dictate on the chord whether the chord starts off the 3rd or b7th!! This should help with your chord placements/voicings also as another exercise write out the number to each of the notes in the chord. This will begin to help you identify which notes are the altered ones (b13, #9) and which ones are part of the original harmony (1, 3, b7).
Tasks:
1. Write out whether the chord is off the 3rd or off the 7th.
2. Write out the numbers of the notes in the chord and then write which notes are altered ones (b13, #9) and original harmony (1, 3, b7).
I'll do the first couple of ones for you.. you have to do the rest though.
C7b13#9 C/EAbBbD# off 3rd 1/3-b13-b7-#9 Alt: Ab, D# Orig.: C, E, Bb
F7b13#9 F/ADbEbG# off 3rd 1/3-b13-b7-#9 Alt: Db, G# Orig.: F, A, Eb
Bb7b13#9 Bb/AbC#DGb off b7th ??
Eb7b13#9 Eb/GCbDbF# off ???? ??
Ab7b13#9 Ab/GbBCE
Db7b13#9 Db/FACbE
Gb7b13#9 Gb/BbDEA
B7b13#9 B/ADEbG
E7b13#9 E/AbCDG
A7b13#9 A/GCDbF
D7b13#9 D/F#BbCF
G7b13#9 G/FBbBEb
another note: this chord is really hard to write out. some of these notes should really be written "correctly" like the A# (#9) on the G7b13#9 chord or the E# (#9) on the D7b13#9 chord but I wrote it as Bb and F respectively to make it easier to read and chord.
Just another tool to add to your toolbelt!
I'm sure if you're like me and you run through the circle of 4th/5th exercise you'll notice that you play these chords already but probably didn't know what it was and it just sounded good.. well now you know!!
Any questions or comments post them!! or if you find other uses for this chord post them as well!!
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DaNat you are the man!!!!!! :o :o :o I have just one question if I may, and I hope this isn't a stupid question. Could you please explain what you mean when you say off the 3rd and off the 7th. Again please forgive my ignorance, I've just never heard that particular term. Thanks in advance and God bless you! ;)
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Could you please explain what you mean when you say off the 3rd and off the 7th.
Absolutely!!
This is what I wrote from Cool Chord #1 post...
When I say off the 3rd or off the b7th, I mean the chord that you're playing in your right hand. C/EGbBbD this chord is starting off the E in the right hand so it's starting off the 3rd.
Just thought I'd clear that up.
Chevonee does that make sense? I wanna make sure its clear to you.
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It's just a #5. It's not a b13 unless the 5 is in the chord too...
Eb(#9,b13) - LH/RH - Eb Bb / Db Gb G B
DW
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It's just a #5. It's not a b13 unless the 5 is in the chord too...
Eb(#9,b13) - LH/RH - Eb Bb / Db Gb G B
DW
I'm sorry but which rule is that I must have missed and so have all of the many authors and jazz musicians who play that chord without the 5.
This is when theory goes too far.. when two people say the same thing but differently and cause confusion.
And here's another question for you.. how would you chord that with just the LH? I wrote those chords out so that they could be used either with the LH playing bass and RH with the chord or with a bass player and the left hand playing the chord.. the chord you listed BbDbGbGB would be so difficult to play with just your left hand in the midst of a progression.. GBDbGb is easier and connect smoothly with other chords.. I put thought to how these chords are arranged and it is the standard that any jazz teacher or book would show you.
But yes.. a b13 is "just" a #5
I'll leave the theory to the theory heads and just post the chords.
Please play what feels and sounds right to you.
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It's just a #5. It's not a b13 unless the 5 is in the chord too...
Eb(#9,b13) - LH/RH - Eb Bb / Db Gb G B
DW
Ummm, I don't think so man because the 5th may be omitted from a chord altogether, as long as the 3rd and 7th are present, which they are. So, DaNati is correct with the name of the chord.
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DaNati, you have done it again. nice post man. Where did you get that chord from?
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If the 5th is present then it's a b13. If not, then it's a #5. Saying b13 implies that the 5th is present and unaltered. Just me being anal. ;)
It's the same situation with a #11. If the 5th is present, then it's a #11; if not, then it's just a b5.
It doesn't mean the chord is any less cool.
The reason you don't see a lot of #11's and b13's in chords is because of the strong dissonance between the 5th and these alterations. Instead you see b5's and #5's. It takes a lot of expirementation to come up with a voicing in which the #11 and 5 or the b13 and 5 don't clash hard. The guy who could really do this well was Thelonius Monk.
Theory is about communication, not rules.
Sorry to be so nitpicky. :)
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Easy fellas, we're all gleaning information from one another. That's all. ;) :)
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Yes now I understand. Thanks for breakin it down for me. ;)
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I know the first time someone nit-picked on my chord naming I was a little annoyed, but once he explained it nicely to me, it all made sense.
8)
God Bless!
DW
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That's a nice explanation darkwing, but I still don't fully agree with it. You're still not taking in to account the omission of the 5th as long as the 3rd and 7th are present. Let me ask you a few questions so that I can make a connection:
This chord, Eb / Db-G-C-Eb, is an Eb13 chord right? I got my 1 / b7-3-13-1, my 5th is not there.
If the answer to the above question is correct, isn't it the same as what DaNati was explaining?
If the answer is incorrect, what would you call it?
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That's a nice explanation darkwing, but I still don't fully agree with it. You're still not taking in to account the omission of the 5th as long as the 3rd and 7th are present. Let me ask you a few questions so that I can make a connection:
This chord, Eb / Db-G-C-Eb, is an Eb13 chord right? I got my 1 / b7-3-13-1, my 5th is not there.
If the answer to the above question is correct, isn't it the same as what DaNati was explaining?
If the answer is incorrect, what would you call it?
An Eb7add6, perhaps? :-\
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Original Chord = Eb+9+5 (Ebaug9+5)
Dom13 implies the 5th (Bb) should be in the chord whether you play it or not...
However we understand that in jazz circles chords are usually built off the 7th, that is probably why Danati used the name most common in jazz.
Either way good explanation Danati
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That's a nice explanation darkwing, but I still don't fully agree with it. You're still not taking in to account the omission of the 5th as long as the 3rd and 7th are present. Let me ask you a few questions so that I can make a connection:
This chord, Eb / Db-G-C-Eb, is an Eb13 chord right? I got my 1 / b7-3-13-1, my 5th is not there.
If the answer to the above question is correct, isn't it the same as what DaNati was explaining?
If the answer is incorrect, what would you call it?
My quick & dirty answer is that your chord is an Eb7(13). I'm working on a master list of dominant chords and nomenclature explanations which I will post on my website and reply with the link when complete. My cramped hands thank you! ;)
A little more on my quick & dirty answer:
* The 5th may be omitted except in the special case of the #11 or b13 in which its presence is required to create the indicated harmony. If it is not present, then it is a b5 or #5 respectively. Try including/excluding the perfect 5th with the #11 or b13 and you will hear how different they are from the b5 or #5. Then try coming up with nice voicings for a V7(#11) and V7(b13). It's not easy and I can't think of any off the top of my head. The suggestion I've heard is to place the perfect 5th and the respective alteration as far apart as possible. :) I find it so interesting that the b9 doesn't clash with the root, and the #9 doesn't clash with the 3rd. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact the the root and 3rd are the strongest notes while the 5th is quite weak and is only brought to light when played with an adjacent note.
* If you really don't want the 5th, then write Eb7(13, omit 5). Yuck! I prefer to not to be too anal about including/excluding the 5th.
* "When in doubt, spell it out" - i.e. - If you think your chord name will just add confusion, then just spell it out. I've had to learn to use chord symbols that are familiar to those around me, while still helping them improve their notation. It takes a lot of give and take. "Pick your battles" :)
Continuing to make us all think...
Sometimes I think I like to think about music more than I like to play it. ?/?
DW
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My quick & dirty answer is that your chord is an Eb7(13). I'm working on a master list of dominant chords and nomenclature explanations which I will post on my website and reply with the link when complete. My cramped hands thank you! ;)
A little more on my quick & dirty answer:
* The 5th may be omitted except in the special case of the #11 or b13 in which its presence is required to create the indicated harmony. If it is not present, then it is a b5 or #5 respectively. Try including/excluding the perfect 5th with the #11 or b13 and you will hear how different they are from the b5 or #5. Then try coming up with nice voicings for a V7(#11) and V7(b13). It's not easy and I can't think of any off the top of my head. The suggestion I've heard is to place the perfect 5th and the respective alteration as far apart as possible. :) I find it so interesting that the b9 doesn't clash with the root, and the #9 doesn't clash with the 3rd. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact the the root and 3rd are the strongest notes while the 5th is quite weak and is only brought to light when played with an adjacent note.
* If you really don't want the 5th, then write Eb7(13, omit 5). Yuck! I prefer to not to be too anal about including/excluding the 5th.
* "When in doubt, spell it out" - i.e. - If you think your chord name will just add confusion, then just spell it out. I've had to learn to use chord symbols that are familiar to those around me, while still helping them improve their notation. It takes a lot of give and take. "Pick your battles" :)
Continuing to make us all think...
Sometimes I think I like to think about music more than I like to play it. ?/?
DW
If no one else will ask the question, I will: Why not call it an Eb7add6 or even an Eb7 (6); why the (13)? ?/? :-\
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If no one else will ask the question, I will: Why not call it an Eb7add6 or even an Eb7 (6); why the (13)? ?/? :-\
I didn't think it was a question to ask...you are correct it is a Eb7add6... ;) 8)
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Note: Eb7/6 is also known as Eb7/13...you either add the 6 or add the 13 (which is the same note)
Eb7/6 = Eb-G-(Bb)-(C=6th)-Db
Eb7/13 = Eb-G-(Bb)-Db-(C=13th)
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O.K. darkwing, now i understand where you coming from, I can get with that answer. You have just opened my eyes up to something i didn't fully study in music theory yet. Thanks!!!
Sometimes I think I like to think about music more than I like to play it. ?/?
I'm wit ya here, I also like the thinking behind the music more than playing. If I could, I would spend all day on theory, but I gotta play it sometime, LOL.
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O.K. darkwing, now i understand where you coming from, I can get with that answer. You have just opened my eyes up to something i didn't fully study in music theory yet. Thanks!!!
I'm wit ya here, I also like the thinking behind the music more than playing. If I could, I would spend all day on theory, but I gotta play it sometime, LOL.
Man, I am SOOOO opposite. Theory bores me to tears. :-\
I wish I could play it the way I hear it and can read it. :-\ :(
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I didn't think it was a question to ask...you are correct it is a Eb7add6... ;) 8)
The general concept of building chords is this:
Start with the root and add thirds, then alter each note (aside from the root) up or down a half-step to create the desired tonality.
Hence, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13. By altering or excluding any note (aside from the root) or combination of notes, we can create any possible chord.
When we talk about chord extensions we are talking about 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths. 2nd, 4th, and 6th fit into scale theory as in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
Think of chords as stacked:
13
11
9
7
5
3
1
Think of scales linearly:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Extensions are after the fact, hence using a number below 7 conflicts with this idea.
In my opinion, what it really comes down to is this - Will everyone interpret my chord symbol the same? I think the following are all acceptable as I don't think there is any other way to interpret them except Eb, G, (Bb), Db, C:
Eb7(6)
Eb7(add6)
Eb7(13)
Eb7(add13)
As to which one I prefer, it's Eb7(13), simply because using a 6 doesn't fit well with the concept of adding extensions (extensions are above the 7th).
A favorite quote of mine is, "Music theory is just a theory, just like evolution is a theory". A theory is what we use to explain what we see in nature. A theory is not a law until it is proved over and over again with the scientific method. Every theory has holes. Classical music theory is how classical musicians relate their experience, the same goes for Jazz theory, etc. There are as many music theories as there are musicians. I prefer Jazz theory, but of course I probably have my own twist on it. Theory is about communication.
So why did I bother correcting the chord symbol? My approach should have been, "I prefer calling it a V7(#5,#9), because..." I only try to correct chord symbols if I think they create ambiguity in my mind. It is very subjective, but it goes back to communication. If we don't talk about it, then we'll never reach a concensus upon a "least ambiguous" theory that allows for effective communication.
Sorry for hijacking your thread Danati, I didn't realize where this would lead! LOL ;)
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Man, I am SOOOO opposite. Theory bores me to tears. :-\
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, It's an acquired love (like bean ice cream), LOL. :D
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The general concept of building chords is this:
Start with the root and add thirds, then alter each note (aside from the root) up or down a half-step to create the desired tonality.
Hence, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13. By altering or excluding any note (aside from the root) or combination of notes, we can create any possible chord.
When we talk about chord extensions we are talking about 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths. 2nd, 4th, and 6th fit into scale theory as in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
Think of chords as stacked:
13
11
9
7
5
3
1
Think of scales linearly:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Extensions are after the fact, hence using a number below 7 conflicts with this idea.
In my opinion, what it really comes down to is this - Will everyone interpret my chord symbol the same? I think the following are all acceptable as I don't think there is any other way to interpret them except Eb, G, (Bb), Db, C:
Eb7(6)
Eb7(add6)
Eb7(13)
Eb7(add13)
As to which one I prefer, it's Eb7(13), simply because using a 6 doesn't fit well with the concept of adding extensions (extensions are above the 7th).
A favorite quote of mine is, "Music theory is just a theory, just like evolution is a theory". A theory is what we use to explain what we see in nature. A theory is not a law until it is proved over and over again with the scientific method. Every theory has holes. Classical music theory is how classical musicians relate their experience, the same goes for Jazz theory, etc. There are as many music theories as there are musicians. I prefer Jazz theory, but of course I probably have my own twist on it. Theory is about communication.
So why did I bother correcting the chord symbol? My approach should have been, "I prefer calling it a V7(#5,#9), because..." I only try to correct chord symbols if I think they create ambiguity in my mind. It is very subjective, but it goes back to communication. If we don't talk about it, then we'll never reach a concensus upon a "least ambiguous" theory that allows for effective communication.
Sorry for hijacking your thread Danati, I didn't realize where this would lead! LOL ;)
All Good Info
COSIGN...what you said
My comment wasn't implying that there was no question to ask by SJ...I thought SJ was simply stating what the chord is called and his statement was already correct...LOL. Troof, I've seen it both ways...Eb7/6 or Eb7/13...
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a lively topic lol, i luv discussing theory especially jazz theory and chord structure, harmonization, voicings, etc. but has anybody ever tried adding a Bmaj chord on top of the Ebdom? I usually play it like this Eb G Db/ Gb Cb Db Gb...it's the same chord but with a majory (for lack of a better word) sound on top...very hip 8)
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a lively topic lol, i luv discussing theory especially jazz theory and chord structure, harmonization, voicings, etc. but has anybody ever tried adding a Bmaj chord on top of the Ebdom? I usually play it like this Eb G Db/ Gb Cb Db Gb...it's the same chord but with a majory (for lack of a better word) sound on top...very hip 8)
Yeah, that's a slick polychord voicing for a V7(#5,#9) --> b6/I7 (as in B/Eb7 or Ab/C7)
I like to do this...
Db F Bb / Eb Ab C --> DbM9(13)
C E Bb / Eb Ab C --> C7(#5,#9)
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i was also taught that you could use major chords minor thirds away from the root on top of a dominant to give it an even more "out of the box" sound...[i.e. Ebdom with Eb, Gb, A, or C (major chords) on top] i guess they come out of the diminished scale and how it's harmonized...i just learned it like two days ago in jazz improv class and i was fooling around with licks using those chords and i was shocked at how crazy it sounded...has anybody else tried that or had more experience with using those kind of voicings or licks in your our music/solos?
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i was also taught that you could use major chords minor thirds away from the root on top of a dominant to give it an even more "out of the box" sound...[i.e. Ebdom with Eb, Gb, A, or C (major chords) on top] i guess they come out of the diminished scale and how it's harmonized...i just learned it like two days ago in jazz improv class and i was fooling around with licks using those chords and i was shocked at how crazy it sounded...has anybody else tried that or had more experience with using those kind of voicings or licks in your our music/solos?
Yes, I discussed this in an article on my website (http://freegospelresource.com/music-theory/improvising-with-arpeggios.html (http://freegospelresource.com/music-theory/improvising-with-arpeggios.html))
Here's a handy chart:
D/C7 C9(b5,13) [II/I7]
Eb/C7 C7(#9) [bIII/I7]
Gb/C7 C7(b5,b9) [bV/I7]
Ab/C7 C7(#5,#9) [bVI/I7]
A/C7 C7(b9,13) [VI/I7]
Cm/C7 C7(#9) [i/I7]
Dbm/C7 C7(#5,b9) [bii/I7]
Ebm/C7 C7(b5,#9) [biii/I7]
Gbm/C7 C7(b5,b9,13) [bv/I7]
Gm/C7 C9 [v/I7]
Am/C7 C7(13) [vi/I7]
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If you've poked around on my website, you'll notice I need to go through and change some chord names in charts to correctly reflect the right chords. So please don't jump on me for saying one thing and doing another. :-[
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If you've poked around on my website, you'll notice I need to go through and change some chord names in charts to correctly reflect the right chords. So please don't jump on me for saying one thing and doing another. :-[
Yeah...I meant to tell you the first chord I saw on your site should be a D9#15#2... :D ;D
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Yeah...I meant to tell you the first chord I saw on your site should be a D9#15#2... :D ;D
WOW, what a chord, I gotta add that to my playing, LOL. :o ;D :D
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WOW, what a chord, I gotta add that to my playing, LOL. :o ;D :D
What a chord is right and guess what it sounds like?...
A hot mess...LOL... ;) 8)
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Sorry for hijacking your thread Danati, I didn't realize where this would lead! LOL ;)
It's not my thread or my information.. I'm only giving what God gives me to give to others.
I created these cool chords posts to stir up some traffic and conversation in the jazz forum and apparently it has done that so it's purpose has been served.
I'll continue to post chords, mp3, licks, progression and whatever else I'm lead to do but I won't debate theory I'll leave that to the more qualified. I'll post what I have and that's that.
But everyone keep up the good work.
I just want to help folks add that jazzy flavor to their playing that Jamal at GospelKeyboard.com, Ricky Draper (RickyDraper.com) and others do so well.
Keep practicing everyone.. Enlarge Your Vision and Expect God's Favor in EVERYTHING that you do.. even your playing!!
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What a chord is right and guess what it sounds like?...
A hot mess...LOL... ;) 8)
It sure does (I can't believe I'm admitting to have tried to actually play this chord). :D
Possible voicing for anyone who is curious:
D9 #15/#2 = D-C / E-F-F#-A-C-D# *use your thumb to play E & F at the same time
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It's not my thread or my information.. I'm only giving what God gives me to give to others.
I created these cool chords posts to stir up some traffic and conversation in the jazz forum and apparently it has done that so it's purpose has been served.
I'll continue to post chords, mp3, licks, progression and whatever else I'm lead to do but I won't debate theory I'll leave that to the more qualified. I'll post what I have and that's that.
But everyone keep up the good work.
I just want to help folks add that jazzy flavor to their playing that Jamal at GospelKeyboard.com, Ricky Draper (RickyDraper.com) and others do so well.
Keep practicing everyone.. Enlarge Your Vision and Expect God's Favor in EVERYTHING that you do.. even your playing!!
Keep doin' what you doin', It's Gr8 for this forum and don't mind debating with us, It's all good bruh...I'm still learning and its very helpful info that you bring.
It sure does (I can't believe I'm admitting to have tried to actually play this chord). :D
Possible voicing for anyone who is curious:
D9 #15/#2 = D-C / E-F-F#-A-C-D# *use your thumb to play E & F at the same time
I don't believe you actually tried to chord it ?/?...Too funny T...You are the Ultimate Theory Expert!!! :D ;D You got my vote hands down...
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Those were just jokes T-Block...
I already know you the man, seriously!
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It's not my thread or my information.. I'm only giving what God gives me to give to others.
I created these cool chords posts to stir up some traffic and conversation in the jazz forum and apparently it has done that so it's purpose has been served.
I'll continue to post chords, mp3, licks, progression and whatever else I'm lead to do but I won't debate theory I'll leave that to the more qualified. I'll post what I have and that's that.
But everyone keep up the good work.
I just want to help folks add that jazzy flavor to their playing that Jamal at GospelKeyboard.com, Ricky Draper (RickyDraper.com) and others do so well.
Keep practicing everyone.. Enlarge Your Vision and Expect God's Favor in EVERYTHING that you do.. even your playing!!
Yes, thanks for stirring the pot. As a result, I have grown from it. :)
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Those were just jokes T-Block...
I already know you the man, seriously!
HAHAHAHAH, I know u was joking man. But, you know what they say, some of the best things happen by accident. You never know when u make up a crazy chord that might be a good one. ;) :D
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That's a sick chord :o 8)
How can me put this & similar chords 2 good use...plz give I an example.
Me needs 2 use these bombs with gr8 care... ;D
thanx..
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Gennimens:
I fear that this is not a gospel tune, but can any of you enlighten me on just what is going on with the E7#9b13 chord in the last measure of Recordame? I believe it is very like a tri-tone substitution for the Bb7, but it also is a nice minor turnaround leading into the A- of the first four measures of the next chorus (and it is a very soulful song, even if it isn't gospel). Any help?