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Author Topic: Is 2-5-1 and the way we look at the number system limiting us?  (Read 1118 times)

Offline diverse379

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Is 2-5-1 and the way we look at the number system limiting us?
« on: February 24, 2015, 06:17:41 AM »
Ok here we go with another one
this is for you intermediate cats.

most of you may want to play the examples first
and then read the explanation afterwards
unless you have a big brain
you may zone out before you get to the examples  lol


i really want you to get this thing so play first read later.

example 1

GACEb/ Eb,D,C,Bb,A,G    ,
F#ACEb/  F#

example 2
so lets play this line

the  seventh of F7 down to the 5 and move chromatically down all the way to the seventh of Ab7

you get
Eb, D, C, B, Bb, A, Ab, G, F# 

now play
the chords from our theory lesson 101 again underneath this line.
GACEb  = F7
F#BbCEb   = Ab7

resolve it to Bbmaj7   by plaing E, F

Example 3 is at the end of this post.

2-5-1 is really an over simplification and a contrite way of looking at music
music should move linearly
as we do in Gospel. but
how can we get there?

so we look at the number system and apply it to gospel
and we can manage to get through a lot of songs this way.

even connect them with a few passing chords and we are doing alright
yes?  no?

I would like to challenge you that the 2-5-1 as you know it is not what it is at all
and was an over simplification.

what if I told you that there was no ii  chord only V7
we do it all the time we play a 2 --5 change and only change the bass note and not the chord
why? because the 2 is really a v7 that is why it is called a Sub Dominant.
but that is for another lesson

alright let me roll up my sleeves. because you got that look on your face.

The following exercises and patterns and concepts come from jazz giant Barry Harris.
play these examples at your piano and you will hear the truth


lets first examine a 7-3-6 progression
in Bb
usually we have a A half diminished followed by a Dmin7 or D7 followed by Gmin7

but this is really an aberation of
F7 to D7 to Bbmaj

because the F7 wants to go to Bb
first we know that A half diminished is really a F7 chord
we also know that the D7 chord is well a D7 which means that F7 went to D7
and Gmin is really a Bb maj6  which functions the same as a Bbmaj7
therefore
our 7-3-6 is really just an F7 moving to a related dominant by a descending minor third
and resolving to Bb


We can interpose the D7 because it is related to F7
how is related?

Because they share the same diminished
if you raise the F on a F7 you get a F# dim7

if you raise the D on a D7 you also get an inverted F# dim7

so now that we can see how they relate

why not try it in an application

play the following line

go from the seventh of F7 down to the fhird of D7

now resolve it to Bb major

now if we use our theory chords from my last post
you can get the correct sound quite easily by playing the following chords

GACEb/Eb,D,C,Bb,A,G    ,
F#ACEb/ F#

although this appears like a 7-3 progression
it is really functioning as a F7 to D7
well we can take this a step further

there is another related 7th chord
Ab7
dont believe me
raise the Ab a half step and you again get the same diminished chord as our old friends the F7 and the D7

so lets play this line

the F7 down to the 5 and move chromatically down all the way to the seventh of Ab7

you get
Eb, D, C, B, Bb, A, Ab, G, F#

now play
the chords from our theory lesson 101 again
GACEb  = F7
F#BbCEb   = Ab7

ok now I am really going to split your wig.

lets look at a 2-5-1 in Bb

That would be Cmin7-F7 to Bbmaj7

but remember I said there is no  ii7 only V7

ok lets look at this progression from the view point of the seventh being related
there is another member of this family
the B7
how do I know. raise the B and you still get the same diminished notes

play this line

go from the 7th of F7 scale wise down to the Four (Bb)
then go up a half step and to B7
play the 7th of B7 and play a descending  major triad appeggio and resolve on the Third of B

it looks like this
Eb, D, C, Bb, B, A, E, C#, Eb

resolve to Bb maj7 by playing      F#, E, F  and play the Bb maj7 with the F


use these chords

EbGBbC  for the first four notes     Eb, D, C, Bb
EbGAC  for the next four notes      B, A, E C#
EF#AC#  for the last three notes     Eb, F# E

DFAC for the last note     F


I am sure you are not convinced that this is just another substitute for the 2-5-1
but I challenge you to look at
the harmony differently


for more information on this sort of stuff

check out Barry Harris
he breaks it down the man is a Genius.
if you are ever in new york
if he still has classes plug into them
To be or not to be that is the question you anwer when you pray practice and read your word
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