Order of Worship.....is it time to let it go?

[blyempowered]

Good points everyone. I would like to see more worship services that are less structured and just flowed. Is there a place for structure? Absolutely, but my problem is when the "order of worship" is treated like a do-or-die component of the life of a church. I do not believe God would be less satisfied if we depended less on the "order of worship." But then some would counter me and say "God would not be less satisfied if we depended more on the 'order of worship.'"

[T-Block]

T-Block, it's not the order of worship it's the elements in it. The invocation, scripture reading, songs, hymns, sermon, announcements, altar call, etc. Not the fact that there IS an order, but the stuff that makes up the order. That's what he's saying. He's saying that all the stuff that's part of our worship service today wasn't a part of the NT gathering.

I hear ya.

Seems to me (and ICBW) like there's a hint of "The NT church is the right way to have church" type attitude going on here. Is that what the book is trying to say? I mean, isn't the point of church to fellowship, learn about Jesus, and equip ourselves to spread Jesus to others? If so, who's to say that one way is better than another way? We have religious freedom here, they didn't.

Just my thoughts. *shrug*

[blyempowered]

I hear ya.

Seems to me (and ICBW) like there's a hint of "The NT church is the right way to have church" type attitude going on here. Is that what the book is trying to say? I mean, isn't the point of church to fellowship, learn about Jesus, and equip ourselves to spread Jesus to others? If so, who's to say that one way is better than another way? We have religious freedom here, they didn't.

Just my thoughts. *shrug*

Yeah, the book we're reading is making the case that the New Testament church (in principle) is the blueprint that should be followed. In principle I agree but in methodology?....Idk.

The problem the author has is that a majority of what happens in church today is not biblically defined and has been added by people, not necessarily by God.

[Fenix]

3. "The sunday morning service is shamefully boring." He makes the case that services are very predictable and usually run the same way every single week.

Truer than true! Our Sunday service is woefully boring!! Most times, you can pretty much guess where the preacher is going 5 minutes into the sermon.

[blyempowered]

I would highly encourage you all if you haven't to purchase the book. Warning: your perspectives may be challenged. Some leave the book having an entirely different view, some are not sold on the book's basic arguments and some (like me) are kind of straddling the fence.

[Fenix]

The fence is cool. I've got a nice vantage point. Plus i have my trusty cushion so its not as uncomrftable as it looks. 

[phbrown]

if you happen to be frugal like me see if you can borrow the book

[MicrophoneCheck]

When I read this...and they made alarming claims like the sermon is unbiblical...it made me wonder, well if its unbiblical then why in the world am I preaching it?  Why did I study hours for it?  Why did the Holy Spirit inspire the words of it?  Why were souls saved through the preaching of it?  See, I don't buy the "sermons are unbiblical bit." 

[phbrown]

When I read this...and they made alarming claims like the sermon is unbiblical...it made me wonder, well if its unbiblical then why in the world am I preaching it?  Why did I study hours for it?  Why did the Holy Spirit inspire the words of it?  Why were souls saved through the preaching of it?  See, I don't buy the "sermons are unbiblical bit." 

Might need a new thread to answer those questions

[MicrophoneCheck]

Might need a new thread to answer those questions

Perhaps. 

[phbrown]

Didn't Jesus give sermons? But I guess he was doing that outside of church...

http://www.lifeofchrist.com/teachings/sermons/default.asp


Sermons of Jesus Christ
This is a complete list of the sermons of Jesus Christ. The sermons are arranged by book.

Matthew    
   
 Sermon/Discourse     Matthew     Related Teachings
Sermon on the mount     5:1 - 7:29     Luke 6:17-49
The 12 commissioned     10:1-42     Mark 6:6-13
About John the Baptist     11:2-30     Luke 7:18-35
A house divided     12:22-50     Mark 3:20-30
Parables by the sea     13:1-53     Luke 8:4-21
Kingdom greatness     18:1-35     Mark 9:33-50
Authority of Christ     21:23-22:14     Luke 20:1-19
Woes to leaders     23:1-39     Mark 12:38-40
The end of time     24:1-26:2     Mark 13:1-37
Upper room discourse     26:26-35     John 13:1-17:26

   
   
Mark    
   
 Sermon/Discourse     Mark     Related Teachings
Parables by the sea     4:1-34     Matthew 13:1-53
Traditions of men     7:1-23     Matthew 15:1-20
Warnings     9:30-50     Matthew 18:1-35
Concerning divorce     10:1-12     Matthew 19:1-12
Return of Christ     13:1-37     Luke 21:5-36

   
   
Luke    
   
 Sermon/Discourse     Luke     Related Teachings
Sermon on the plain     6:17 - 7:1     Matthew 5:1 - 7:29
About John the Baptist     7:18-35     Matthew 11:2-30
Parables by the sea     8:4-21     Matthew 13:1-53
Seventy sent     10:1-24     Matthew 10:1-42
How to pray     11:1-13     Matthew 6:5-15
A house divided     11:14-36     Mark 3:2-31
Pharisees rebuked     11:37-54     Mark 7:1-23
God cares     12:1-13:9     Matthew 10:5-33
Discipleship     14:25-35     Matthew 10:34-42
The lost parables     15:1-16:31     John 9:35 - 10:21
The second coming     17:20-37     Matthew 24:32-51
Parables on prayer     18:1-14     Luke 11:1-13
The end of time     21:5-36     Matthew 24:1-26:2

   
   
John    
   
 Sermon/Discourse     John     Related Teachings
Meets Nicodemus     3:1-21     Romans 6:1-14
Woman at the well     4:5-38     Colossians 3:16
His equality with God     5:17-47     Matthew 28:18-20
Bread of Heaven     6:26-58     John 8:12-59
Light of the world     8:12-59     John 6:26-58
The good shepherd     9:35-10:21     Luke 15:1-10
Son of God     10:22-39     Matthew 25:31-46
Upper room discourse     13:1-17:26     Matthew 26:26-35

[jdholliday]

Truer than true! Our Sunday service is woefully boring!! Most times, you can pretty much guess where the preacher is going 5 minutes into the sermon.

Not speaking against your Pastor, but if it is "woefully boring" which probably means you are not growing then why stay there?

[MicrophoneCheck]

Didn't Jesus give sermons? But I guess he was doing that outside of church...

Not just Jesus but:

New Testament Practice Jesus began His ministry in the synagogue by announcing He was the Herald who fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy concerning the preaching of the kingdom and its blessings (Luke 4:16-21). By the time Peter and the other apostles preached, their emphasis focused on the person and work of Christ as the central point of history certifying the presence of God's kingdom on earth today. In the NT, this message concerned a summation of the basic facts about the life, character, death, burial, resurrection, and coming again of Christ. It continues today as the main word of revelation to the world through the church. Although the NT uses some thirty different terms to describe the preaching of John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles, those most commonly used can be grouped under either proclamation (to herald, to evangelize) or doctrine (to teach). Many scholars define these emphases as either gospel preaching (proclaiming salvation in Christ) or pastoral teaching (instructing, admonishing, and exhorting believers in doctrine and life-style). In practice each function melds into the other. Thus, 1 Corinthians 15:1-7 not only represents the “irreducible core” of the gospel message, but it also includes clear doctrinal teaching on the substitutionary atonement and the fulfillment of messianic prophecies. The same passage forms a foundation for the exposition of the extensive doctrine of general resurrection and its Christian dimensions taught in the following verses. Stephen's address in Acts 7:1-53 represents the best of the OT tradition, weaving narrative and historical portions of Scripture together with contemporary interpretation and application to the present situation. Peter's sermon in Acts 2:1 affirms the atoning nature of Jesus' death and the reality of His resurrection together with a clear call to faith and repentance forming a balanced argument framed around the central proposition that “Jesus Christ is Lord.”

http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5088

[blyempowered]

What the author argues is that the way we do sermons today is unbiblical and in a church meeting everyone should be able to share not just one. Not saying I agree just stating author's viewpoint.

[MicrophoneCheck]

What the author argues is that the way we do sermons today is unbiblical and in a church meeting everyone should be able to share not just one. Not saying I agree just stating author's viewpoint.

I see.  Thanks for clearing that up.  However, I get the impression that one did stand to deliver the message and then it was followed by a discussion.  Similar to what some do in Sunday School or in Bible Study groups.

[phbrown]

I see.  Thanks for clearing that up.  However, I get the impression that one did stand to deliver the message and then it was followed by a discussion.  Similar to what some do in Sunday School or in Bible Study groups.

Mike check,

Do you think the sermons that Jesus delivered was like something you would preach today?

Would Jesus prepare a "speech" to be delivered on the sabbath at 11:15am after hearing a song by the levites?

How do you think Peter or Paul would react if someone asked a question while they were preaching?

[MicrophoneCheck]

Mike check,

Do you think the sermons that Jesus delivered was like something you would preach today?

Would Jesus prepare a "speech" to be delivered on the sabbath at 11:15am after hearing a song by the levites?

How do you think Peter or Paul would react if someone asked a question while they were preaching?

I don't think Jesus had to prepare a speech, being that He was the word made flesh...dwelling among us
I do believe that in the fellowships they broke bread (had a meal) and then discussed the scriptures.  The bible does point out that at the last fellowship before the cross (the Last Supper), they sang a hymn and departed, so perhaps the music came after the discussion.  During the discussions He told a parable and they did ask questions.

In Acts 2:38 we find Peter answering the question they asked after his famous Pentecost sermon.  His reply in Acts 2:38 is the answer to it. 

Off the top of my head, that's what I can come up with.

[phbrown]

I don't think Jesus had to prepare a speech, being that He was the word made flesh...dwelling among us
I do believe that in the fellowships they broke bread (had a meal) and then discussed the scriptures.  The bible does point out that at the last fellowship before the cross (the Last Supper), they sang a hymn and departed, so perhaps the music came after the discussion.  During the discussions He told a parable and they did ask questions.

In Acts 2:38 we find Peter answering the question they asked after his famous Pentecost sermon.  His reply in Acts 2:38 is the answer to it. 

Off the top of my head, that's what I can come up with.

Mike check,
thank you for your answers, got a few more I hope you don't mind

Have you ever encourage, or listened to, a discussion during a sermon? Meaning people asked you questions.

Do you think the parable took about an hour to say?

after the last supper do you think they had a bulletin or a church program saying which song(s) they were going to sing?

I only ask these questions to point out potential differences in the way we do things today versus the way it "might have" happened back in the day.

Like Blyempowered said this is just the viewpoint of this particular author.

[nessalynn77]

Wow, that's good.  I never thought about it that way (Peter's sermon in Acts).

Mike check,
thank you for your answers, got a few more I hope you don't mind

Have you ever encourage, or listened to, a discussion during a sermon? Meaning people asked you questions.

Do you think the parable took about an hour to say?

after the last supper do you think they had a bulletin or a church program saying which song(s) they were going to sing?

I only ask these questions to point out potential differences in the way we do things today versus the way it "might have" happened back in the day.

Like Blyempowered said this is just the viewpoint of this particular author.

I'm not MC, but I want to pause and point out that whether they had these things or not, it doesn't make them wrong or less effective.  I believe the bible focused on what was important and as long as we are not contrary to what we've been instructed in the Word of God, I believe we can use methods that help us minister effectively for the people that we have been called to.  Paul adjusted his sermons, and approach in the scripture, but kept it holy at all times.  That, to me, is part of becoming all things to all men... *shrug*

IMO, this is another instance of the church majoring in the minors.  If God calls you to establish a church, he may give you instructions that differ from other churches.  It doesn't make other churches or you wrong, it just makes them different.  You might reach souls in your church that others may not appeal to and vice versa.  Someone please point out the sin and give scripture reference... otherwise, I fail to see the point.

[MicrophoneCheck]

Mike check,
thank you for your answers, got a few more I hope you don't mind

Have you ever encourage, or listened to, a discussion during a sermon? Meaning people asked you questions.

Do you think the parable took about an hour to say?

after the last supper do you think they had a bulletin or a church program saying which song(s) they were going to sing?

I only ask these questions to point out potential differences in the way we do things today versus the way it "might have" happened back in the day.

Like Blyempowered said this is just the viewpoint of this particular author.

I would LOVE it if I were there in person, but no, I was NOT there when they crucified my Lord 
However, Yes, because I have actually had a "home church" set up-- they did
The lesson takes as long as it takes...days, weeks, or a few moments (and I believe it did in Jesus' day too)
I doubt that they had a bulletin...I mean a scroll maybe (naaaaah)...but unless the bible forbids a bulletin, why is it an issue of the author?

It's a great discussion...and I've read similar view points...the house church movement is growing and I've done my homework (use to have one).