May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[lordluvr]

I see what you're saying. Got a question: now the Greek word used in Matthew 5:17 in the KJV for "fulfilled" is "Pleroo" which means to bring to release, to carry into effect, causing God's will to be done, to make complete, etc. So my question would be, what's the difference between something being destroyed and something being "completed?"  Maybe your question is deeper than what I'm thinking, but the difference between something being destroyed and something being completed is almost like the difference between night and day.  When a building goes from blueprint to structure, it's complete.  Take a wrecking ball to the structure and it's destroyed. 

Looking at the context of Matthew 5 (even to 7), some would argue that Jesus was presenting a new "interpretation" of the law. Again, this is why the issue, to me, boils down to figuring out what the use of the OT is for the Christian. Without re-reading all of Mat. 5-7, I know this much: Jesus made the law real simple in that he essentially said that it's based on one thing, love.  The first and greatest commandment: Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart..., and the second, thou shalt love thy neighbor...  Everything else is built on that.  Different interpretation?  Not so sure about that.  Better understanding?  Definitely

And related to that, has anyone read chapter 8? If so, has your views on tithing and clergy salary changed? Here's where I stand on the tithing issue: To be perfectly honest (since we're a family), I kind of have a problem with people preaching tithing to a point where it makes it seem like if you don't tithe you're under a curse. Part of the problem with that (as the author identified) is that most of the time people don't read the entire chapter or even consider the context of the time. I'm not against tithing per se, but how do we know that when it says in Malachi "bring tithes and offerings to the store house that there may be meat in my house", it is talking about money (the dollars we have) versus actual meat?  I haven't read chapter 8

I won't try to debate the tithing issue because it's been debated entirely too much on LGM but just wanted to get your opinions of if how you felt about tithing was challenged.

[phbrown]

So did the author convince any of you all that we should get rid of choirs, praise teams ,etc., and just go totally to congregational singing?

nope

[blyempowered]

nope

LOL I figured the author was not going to convince people, especially those who are musicians and raised in music ministry, to get rid of choirs, praise teams, etc.

Again, I understand the author's point and he makes a good one but....idk......I guess I just don't see it (right now) as a make or break thing in the church. *shrug*

[sjonathan02]

LOL I figured the author was not going to convince people, especially those who are musicians and raised in music ministry, to get rid of choirs, praise teams, etc.

Again, I understand the author's point and he makes a good one but....idk......I guess I just don't see it (right now) as a make or break thing in the church. *shrug*

It's akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater and there's no need for that.



Should there be a more concentrated focus on CORPORATE worship and getting the congregation involved? YES!

But, to say that music has no place in the worship service is purely crazy talk.

[LaylaMonroe]

Yeah, I don't believe we need to get rid of choirs and stuff, but I do think that we should place a lot less of an emphasis on that aspect of ministry. Honestly, I would just like to see the church at large focus about 60% of its attention on evangelism and outreach; 30% on education, and the other 10% on everything else (administration, music, worship services, auxiliaries, conferences, etc).

BTJM.

[blyempowered]

Yeah, I don't believe we need to get rid of choirs and stuff, but I do think that we should place a lot less of an emphasis on that aspect of ministry. Honestly, I would just like to see the church at large focus about 60% of its attention on evangelism and outreach; 30% on education, and the other 10% on everything else (administration, music, worship services, auxiliaries, conferences, etc).

BTJM.

Wow! That would be a major shift!

[chevonee]

I've been reading excerpts from Chapter 7 and to be honest with you, I am starting to question myself. Shesh...they are really talking a lot about things that are near and dear to my heart...music ministry, praise teams,  choirs, etc. I agree with you guys when you say that black churches will never do away with music ministry but this book does make some valid points about music though. *shrug* Maybe we have do put music above what it should be. Would I still go to church if I didn't play? Would I enjoy service as much without music? Hmmmmm

This book is really going to change CHEVONNE forever....one way or another.

[blyempowered]

Hmmmm.

[sjonathan02]

I've been reading excerpts from Chapter 7 and to be honest with you, I am starting to question myself. Shesh...they are really talking a lot about things that are near and dear to my heart...music ministry, praise teams,  choirs, etc. I agree with you guys when you say that black churches will never do away with music ministry but this book does make some valid points about music though. *shrug* Maybe we have do put music above what it should be. Would I still go to church if I didn't play? Would I enjoy service as much without music? Hmmmmm

This book is really going to change CHEVONNE forever....one way or another.

Ahhh, now those are great questions.  I'm sure most of us would say 'yes' so we won't go there that's a personal thing between us and God. 

I stand by what I said earlier, the focus of music should be to glorify God through song WITH the congregation. When we begin to think that we're more important than the one to whom and about whom we're supposed to be singing, it's time to check our motives.


No chord or choir is better than Christ.  No singer or psalmist is better than the Savior.  And, no music ministry or minstrel is better than the Messiah.

BTJM.

[chevonee]

Ahhh, now those are great questions.  I'm sure most of us would say 'yes' so we won't go there that's a personal thing between us and God. 

I stand by what I said earlier, the focus of music should be to glorify God through song WITH the congregation. When we begin to think that we're more important than the one to whom and about whom we're supposed to be singing, it's time to check our motives.


No chord is better than Christ.  No singer is better than the Savior.  And, no music ministry is better than the Messiah.

BTJM.

You're absolutely right bro! I had to actually search myself to make sure that I'm not so carried away on playing that I actually forget the whole purpose of what I do. If one isn't careful, they could easily lose focus and begin to worship music instead of Christ. I know without a doubt that I would still enjoy church without music. It would take me a while to get over it because I love to play and sing soooooo much, but I would definitely do it.

I would certainly hope that I would never have to do this though.

[sjonathan02]

You're absolutely right bro! I had to actually search myself to make sure that I'm not so carried away on playing that I actually forget the whole purpose of what I do. If one isn't careful, they could easily lose focus and begin to worship music instead of Christ. I know without a doubt that I would still enjoy church without music. It would take me a while to get over it because I love to play and sing soooooo much, but I would definitely do it.

I would certainly hope that I would never have to do this though.

You won't have to worry about that. I think the authors missed the boat on this one in, again, trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater.


Motives need to be checked, for sure.  But, to eliminate music altogether, I don't really believe God wants that.

[blyempowered]

Actually, I think the author made a good case for getting rid of music and just doing congregational singing (on principle) but methodologically speaking I don't think it's possible nor do I think it's that big of an issue. Again, I do think that in our tradition we need to deemphasize the role of music and not make music such a primary aspect of church but then again, that system would have to be broken in the minds of those who attend these churches, which again I don't see possible.

When yall get to chapter 8, let me know. I'm very curious to hear what you all have to say on the issue of tithing and clergy salary.

[blyempowered]

Oh and Chevonne and Jonathan, I feel like one of the big themes of this book is that the Old Testament was done away with when Jesus died on the cross, which means that everything (all practices, customs, traditions, etc.) were done away with when Jesus died on the cross. Many of those practices would include music, emphasis of meeting in a building, clergy attire, possibly tithing, etc.

What do you all think? Should the Old Testament have a role when it comes to New Testament/Post-Apostolic Christians?

[chevonee]

Man I thought chapter 7 was a doozy but chapter 8 "Tithing and Clergy Salaries" is shonuff something to really think about.

[phbrown]

Oh and Chevonne and Jonathan, I feel like one of the big themes of this book is that the Old Testament was done away with when Jesus died on the cross, which means that everything (all practices, customs, traditions, etc.) were done away with when Jesus died on the cross. Many of those practices would include music, emphasis of meeting in a building, clergy attire, possibly tithing, etc.

I agree with you churchy that does appear to be one of the writers belief ... to answer the question I need to do some research

[phbrown]

the public library said my book is due tomorrow and that I can renew anymore ... sooo guess who is going to finish the book tonight LOL

[LaylaMonroe]

Ch8, tithing and clergy salaries...

Well, on the subject of tithing, let me say this:

1. My church teaches/believes the doctrine of tithing.

2. I was born/raised to believe in the tithe, and speaking anything else would give my mother a sure heart attack. She had us so trained to tithe, that every one of us (4 sisters and me) have tithed since our very first jobs, saved or not. We ALL tithe, and only 2 of us are saved and churchgoing. My other sisters send their tithe to my mom and she forwards it to her church. Mom doesn't play with the tithe. It is just that serious.

3. I have studied this subject pretty thoroughly and I am pretty comfortable arguing both sides of the coin. I believe the tithing debate has merit from both perspectives, but the bottom line is that there really IS no requirement for us to tithe today. The only argument we have (as Frank pointed out) is Malachi 3, which is irrelevant when studied in context, the Mosaic Law (which is also irrelevant, since we don't keep the rest of the Mosaic Law), and the Abrahamic tithe, which is totally different. Every scripture in the NT about giving instructs us how to give, and none of them compel or even encourage us to give the tithe.

My bottom line: the authors are right on this one. We should give liberally, cheerfully, and deliberately, as I always teach in new members classes. But there's no Biblical requirement for Christians to give the tenth. That said, I am a tither and probably always will be. Tithing wasn't even mandated in the Church until centuries after Jesus Christ and the apostles died. If it was mandatory, why weren't they doing it in the first several centuries?

IRT Clergy Salaries: I think Paul settles this matter and I don't even think it's debatable. Clergy salaries are not Biblical and neither are mandatory honorariums. Does that mean it's wrong or bad to give a pastor a salary? I don't know. I guess I'm on the fence with that one, leaning toward no, it's not wrong. But as we often do, we tend to take something "just barely okay" and make it a must-do, incorporating our own sentiments and proof-texting to make it mandatory, which IS wrong.

I know that ministry costs. If no one knows that, I do. And I'm of the seemingly conflicting belief that we should live off of our gifts (in other words, the gifts God gave us should be used to sustain us financially). However, that doesn't mean we should charge people for our gifts or demand a salary for our service to the body of Christ. That's where we get into trouble. And I agree with the authors that this is largely why our churches have such financial difficulties and compromise so much (and are so tempted to employ gimmicks and fraudulent behavior). We are under so much strain to support these salaries, that we HAVE TO get more money. And that just wasn't a focus of the early church's mission. If we've screwed up in no other area, we've definitely screwed up in that one.

My bottom line for this entire thread and discussion is really that if we're unsure what to do, we should take a look at what the Apostles taught (by word or demonstration) and stick as closely to that as humanly possible.

[LaylaMonroe]

Motives need to be checked, for sure.  But, to eliminate music altogether, I don't really believe God wants that.

Neither do I.

As for the motives... it's so easy to say that (or read it and agree) and keep moving... such a small sentence, but so full of meaning. That's actually a huge undertaking. Granted, we can only check our own motives; motives DO need to be checked throughout the body of Christ. If a checklist were being kept on things the corporate Church needs to address, I would want to add this to it.

[LaylaMonroe]

I've been reading excerpts from Chapter 7 and to be honest with you, I am starting to question myself. Shesh...they are really talking a lot about things that are near and dear to my heart...music ministry, praise teams,  choirs, etc. I agree with you guys when you say that black churches will never do away with music ministry but this book does make some valid points about music though. *shrug* Maybe we have do put music above what it should be. Would I still go to church if I didn't play? Would I enjoy service as much without music? Hmmmmm

This book is really going to change CHEVONNE forever....one way or another.

Well I don't play, but I've been to more than a few services without music and I'll be the first to admit, I don't usually enjoy it. In fact, when I went to my own church a few weeks ago, the musicians were very late (and left early ) so they did P&W without music. It wasn't that great, but it also made me wonder how come it wasn't that great? Like, they cut the set short (lots of exhortation and only one song - usually there's 2-3 songs and some exhortation), and the exhortation seemed to be almost pleading for cooperation, with an apologetic tinge to it. Why is that? Why can't we worship THE SAME without music?

We're conditioned. Someone/something down the line was successful at shifting our focus from pure worship that only required clean hands to a modern form of worship that requires perfect music, perfect harmonies, perfect lighting, a perfect temperature, perfect positioning and perfect settings.

[sjonathan02]

Ch8, tithing and clergy salaries...

Well, on the subject of tithing, let me say this:


3. I have studied this subject pretty thoroughly and I am pretty comfortable arguing both sides of the coin. I believe the tithing debate has merit from both perspectives, but the bottom line is that there really IS no requirement for us to tithe today. The only argument we have (as Frank pointed out) is Malachi 3, which is irrelevant when studied in context, the Mosaic Law (which is also irrelevant, since we don't keep the rest of the Mosaic Law), and the Abrahamic tithe, which is totally different. Every scripture in the NT about giving instructs us how to give, and none of them compel or even encourage us to give the tithe.

My bottom line: the authors are right on this one. We should give liberally, cheerfully, and deliberately, as I always teach in new members classes. But there's no Biblical requirement for Christians to give the tenth. That said, I am a tither and probably always will be. Tithing wasn't even mandated in the Church until centuries after Jesus Christ and the apostles died. If it was mandatory, why weren't they doing it in the first several centuries?

IRT Clergy Salaries: I think Paul settles this matter and I don't even think it's debatable. Clergy salaries are not Biblical and neither are mandatory honorariums. Does that mean it's wrong or bad to give a pastor a salary? I don't know. I guess I'm on the fence with that one, leaning toward no, it's not wrong. But as we often do, we tend to take something "just barely okay" and make it a must-do, incorporating our own sentiments and proof-texting to make it mandatory, which IS wrong.

I know that ministry costs. If no one knows that, I do. And I'm of the seemingly conflicting belief that we should live off of our gifts (in other words, the gifts God gave us should be used to sustain us financially). However, that doesn't mean we should charge people for our gifts or demand a salary for our service to the body of Christ. That's where we get into trouble. And I agree with the authors that this is largely why our churches have such financial difficulties and compromise so much (and are so tempted to employ gimmicks and fraudulent behavior). We are under so much strain to support these salaries, that we HAVE TO get more money. And that just wasn't a focus of the early church's mission. If we've screwed up in no other area, we've definitely screwed up in that one.

My bottom line for this entire thread and discussion is really that if we're unsure what to do, we should take a look at what the Apostles taught (by word or demonstration) and stick as closely to that as humanly possible.

I agree with the above poster.