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Author Topic: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna  (Read 85379 times)

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #440 on: June 06, 2011, 05:08:32 PM »
*reading about the sophists*

:o Wow. WOWWWW!!!!!!!!!

Yes ma'am.
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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #441 on: June 06, 2011, 05:09:24 PM »
*reading about the sophists*

:o Wow. WOWWWW!!!!!!!!!

Oooooo

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #442 on: June 06, 2011, 07:38:29 PM »
Musicbishop is NOT gonna dig this chapter at all. :-\
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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #443 on: June 06, 2011, 08:12:27 PM »
Me neither.....

Offline phbrown

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #444 on: June 06, 2011, 09:42:43 PM »
I just want to separate the questions out... before I attempt to answer


Following is from churchy

how can it be argued that only "certain" people are called to preach from the pulpit?

how much should our culture play into our church practices?

Offline phbrown

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #445 on: June 06, 2011, 09:47:36 PM »
how can it be argued that only "certain" people are called to preach from the pulpit?
Preaching today is a speaking style. Normally a preacher is comfortable talking in front of people. So it can be argued that if since some people speak better than others (able to project their voice, clear, maybe even eloquent) and are comfortable talking before groups of people than "certain" people are better suited for the tasked of preaching.

thus being better suited = being predestined to preform a certain task= being called

I don't agree with this but that is because of my personal view of how gifts operate.


how much should our culture play into our church practices?

as long as it doesn't clash with thus said the Lord I'm cool with it. now that brings the question what did he say?

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #446 on: June 06, 2011, 09:54:58 PM »
1. Preaching today is a speaking style. Normally a preacher is comfortable talking in front of people. So it can be argued that if since some people speak better than others (able to project their voice, clear, maybe even eloquent) and are comfortable talking before groups of people than "certain" people are better suited for the tasked of preaching.

thus being better suited = being predestined to preform a certain task= being called

I don't agree with this but that is because of my personal view of how gifts operate.


2. as long as it doesn't clash with thus said the Lord I'm cool with it. now that brings the question what did he say?

1. Honestly, that's what I'm beginning to believe preaching boils down to.....basically are you able to speak in front of people? It's like everyone can explain the Word but everyone is not gifted to speak and declare in front of people. Idk if I totally agree with that logic. Also, what is your personal view of how gifts operate? To be honest, what you said "thus being better suited........." makes me go back to my traditional view that everyone is NOT called to preach from the pulpit. But again, I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that says that there is something "unique" that makes someone called to preach because a lot of sermons are (and I haven't preached my initial sermon........yet basically the same.

2. The problem with this question is that some will argue that we have to look at "thus saith the Lord" in the context that the Bible was written in, which would mean (according to this view) that there are some things that do not apply now because the world is different. This belief is a very conflicting thing for me. I don't have a full stance on it but I'm just saying.

Offline phbrown

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #447 on: June 06, 2011, 11:10:12 PM »
Also, what is your personal view of how gifts operate?

that yes you are given certain gifts but that you can also learn how to do everything else.

Sports analogy

I can learn how to play the center position for basketball but I am gifted to play that postion (I'm short LOL) so even though I can do it. I wouldn't be as good as someone who has that gift. Nevertheless I can do it.


Relating back to our current topic. If I needed to stand before a group of people to talk I can do it. but someone whos gift was envanglism would do a much better job than me.

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #448 on: June 07, 2011, 04:05:24 AM »
Hmmm interesting.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #449 on: June 07, 2011, 09:02:04 AM »
I'm going to reply to Churchy's question (and PHB's reply) in a second, but I have a question that I don't want to forget:

We are now in Ch4-5 of this book, and have been reading for nearly a month now. Have any of you begun to notice changes in the way you view your own church when you attend on Sundays (or any weeknights)? I went to my church this past Sunday for the first time since we began reading and I'm just wondering if it's just me... there were so many things that just irked me or bothered me or made me wonder or tilt my head... and some of this stuff was so normal to me before. Is it just me?

Also, I meant to ask @Jonathan, how has your P&W leading been since we had that discussion a few chapters back?
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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #450 on: June 07, 2011, 09:23:11 AM »
No LaRue. You're not the only one. For example, when our p&w leader talks about "setting the atmosphere" I kind of cringe a little....LOL!

Offline sjonathan02

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #451 on: June 07, 2011, 11:45:29 AM »
I'm going to reply to Churchy's question (and PHB's reply) in a second, but I have a question that I don't want to forget:

We are now in Ch4-5 of this book, and have been reading for nearly a month now. Have any of you begun to notice changes in the way you view your own church when you attend on Sundays (or any weeknights)? I went to my church this past Sunday for the first time since we began reading and I'm just wondering if it's just me... there were so many things that just irked me or bothered me or made me wonder or tilt my head... and some of this stuff was so normal to me before. Is it just me?

Also, I meant to ask @Jonathan, how has your P&W leading been since we had that discussion a few chapters back?

Concerning my leading P&W, I have command fewer worship exercises (lift your hands, clap your hands) and allow the congregation to do what they're going to do.

Interestingly enough, my pastor told the worship team to have a seat this past Sunday in an effort to foster more corporate worship.  Now, there were some things that were 'interesting' (trying to 'go with the flow', we started to play a song and pastor said 'stop'; having the praise team sit in the front row, without mics, still 'leading' the singing).


Concerning our church as a whole, I haven't seen too many things that have bothered me as far as the book is concerned.  I know how that sounds but I haven't *kanyeshrug*
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline phbrown

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #452 on: June 07, 2011, 01:04:59 PM »
I'm going to reply to Churchy's question (and PHB's reply) in a second, but I have a question that I don't want to forget:

We are now in Ch4-5 of this book, and have been reading for nearly a month now. Have any of you begun to notice changes in the way you view your own church when you attend on Sundays (or any weeknights)? I went to my church this past Sunday for the first time since we began reading and I'm just wondering if it's just me... there were so many things that just irked me or bothered me or made me wonder or tilt my head... and some of this stuff was so normal to me before. Is it just me?

Also, I meant to ask @Jonathan, how has your P&W leading been since we had that discussion a few chapters back?

I feel like a stranger sometimes... Like am I really the only here that sees this?!?! This book also made me share about an addiction I have. The whole spontaneous sharing part of our experiences with God.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #453 on: June 07, 2011, 02:22:44 PM »
There were three things that specifically bothered me Sunday (and "bothered" might be too strong a word... I think it just demanded my attention).

1. Intercessory Prayer - consists of 30 minutes (used to be 15, but now our musician doesn't arrive until 1 and service starts at 12:30, so they extended prayer for 15 minutes... not so we can pray more, but so we can stall. :)). During intercessory prayer, the prayer leader prays really hard and loud and strongly - like a good Apostolic would. And the congregation listens, some pray along very softly. The only person that appears to feel the spirit is the leader. Everyone has to stand, which sucks. The pastor, of course, isn't in prayer, and the choir is in the fellowship hall preparing for service, I guess. The PT is also over there, and they don't come in until prayer is just about over. In fact, when they come in, that's the prayer leader's signal to end prayer.

2. When the PT got up to do P&W, they stood in the pulpit area, as usual. It struck me this time because their elevated positioning felt like a performance instead of a corporate worship experience. I mean, no matter how you put it, they are indeed singing TO us (and Jesus, if you insist). Coincidentally, as Jonathan described, I thought to myself "I wonder how it would work if they just sang from their seats with their mics, and we all sang together?" A change that radical would probably have to wait for me to pastor. LOL

3. The very nice, comfortable chairs on the side designated for my pastor and his wife. It never bothered me before. In fact, I'm ashamed to say that I insisted that she sit there (she was more comfortable in her regular seat). Now, I find myself hating it. When she finished leading P&W, her adjutant poured her some water, she drank it while the adjutant fanned her. Then she put the glass down, and the adjutant refilled it, and took her seat. (Now to be very clear, pastor's wife is very humble and does not require or want all that attention. She just accepts it because it's what she thinks is supposed to happen. I mean, she can pour her own water and fan her own self. Geez).

SMH.
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Offline phbrown

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #454 on: June 07, 2011, 03:24:50 PM »
I'm going to reply to Churchy's question (and PHB's reply) in a second, but I have a question that I don't want to forget:


I don't want you to forget

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #455 on: June 07, 2011, 04:10:46 PM »
Oooh thanks because I sure did. Also forgot to answer a question Britt had too... *memory be healed in Jesus' name*

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Offline sjonathan02

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #456 on: June 07, 2011, 08:01:27 PM »
Page 98 is going to mess. folks. up.
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Offline LaylaMonroe

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #457 on: June 07, 2011, 08:05:44 PM »
Yeah I broke my pencil on p98.


CS: starting Ch5 (y'all do remember we're doing 4 AND 5 this week, right?)
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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #458 on: June 07, 2011, 08:05:46 PM »
Page 98 is going to mess. folks. up.

Oh my! *getting ready to re-read that part*

blyempowered

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Re: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna
« Reply #459 on: June 07, 2011, 09:35:35 PM »
Maybe this book (particularly the chapter on music) will show how the choir anniversary tradition was started. After tonight's "argument", I'm almost ready to be done with the concept....SMH!
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