May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[LaylaMonroe]

LOL. I'm gonna try to get through it tomorrow. I'm only on p54, but what little I read already gave me a few lines worth underlining. It's just kinda info-heavy, which makes it a difficult read (for me).

[phbrown]

I see on some level we're not really feeling Chapter 3. 

[LaylaMonroe]

I'm so mad, I was rushing to be on time this morning and left my book at home. I could've finished the chapter today if I had brought it with me.

[blyempowered]

Wow! Not a lot of discussion the last few days. I'm near the end of chapter 4.

[LaylaMonroe]

Well, I think we've pretty much exhausted discussion on Ch2, so it's time to move on to 3, come Thursday.

[blyempowered]

Well, I think we've pretty much exhausted discussion on Ch2, so it's time to move on to 3, come Thursday.

YAY!!!

[phbrown]

[blyempowered]

Tomorrow is the day we start discussing chapter 3!

*in spongebob voice* I'M READY.....I'M READY.....I'M READY.....I'M READY!!!!

[Tiptip357]

I'm so sorry, you guys.  It doesn't take me long to read a book, but lately, I've been a little busy.  School, Work, Ministry...just not really "motivated" to pick up this book, right now.  I might be caught up by chapter 4, but right now, I have nothing to contribute....

[blyempowered]

When I get home I'm digging in.....SHONDO!

[blyempowered]

How many of you all would feel comfortable going to a worship gathering that didn't have an "order of worship" and just flowed?

[LaylaMonroe]

How many of you all would feel comfortable going to a worship gathering that didn't have an "order of worship" and just flowed?

I would.

I can't tell you how many impromptu, spontaneous worship gathering I've been a part of. The people in my circle of "friends" are all worshippers and praisers. Jesus is our lifestyle, not just what we do on Sabbaths or Sundays. So, it's nothing for us to end up in worship while sitting around someone's living room. Whenever we're together, we're digging into the Word. We'll take praise breaks in the parking lot, speak in tongues on a road trip, prophesy, sing hymns, minister to each other, etc.

So yeah, that's the norm for us.

One story I remember (cause y'all know I got a story for everything... lol): a few months ago, two sisters and I were returning to Selma from a weekend trip to Dallas. We left Dallas on Sunday morning, going straight to church in Selma. On the road that morning, I got a call from a young lady from Springfield I used to minister to. She was in an abusive marriage and her husband had just hit her, so she was packing to leave and wanted to come to meet me. After I dealt with her, my sisters and I began to pray. We prayed for a good hour or so and really went in. After prayer, we just kinda flowed into worship as one of the sisters started a hymn and we all joined in, then did hymn medleys... then, the other sister began sharing what the Lord was speaking to her, read the scriptures, and gave insight as the Holy Ghost gave it to her. We went back into worship, and the next thing we know, we were in Selma. That was a 7 hour trip and we spent about 5 in worship.

[blyempowered]

Alright, so let me dig in.

I found this quote interesting: "The meetings of the early church were marked by every-member functioning, spontaneity, freedom, vibrancy and open participation." I think you could make a case that most church services are not ran like this. Again, I would call "testimony service" the closest to this. It would be interesting to find a church that does service like this. If I'm not mistaken, the Quakers did their worship gatherings kind of like this. Again, I ask: how would you feel being in a worship service without an "order of worship" and basically everything being led by the Spirit?

Do you all agree with Luther presenting preaching as the main aspect of the worship service? It seems like before Luther the Eucharist (Mass/Communion) was center piece of the worship service. It seems to me like there's been a history of people putting in what they want for the worship service. From Luther making preaching the primary goal of the worship service to Zqingli proposing the Lord's supper quarterly. It just seems like so many have added their interpretation of what a worship service should hold and followers treated some of this as "major."

I also found interesting how the author argues that the preaching of salvation (you know the Billy Graham type-preaching, fundamentalist baptist, etc) during the Revival-movement time led the worship service to be more "individualistic, subjective and emotional." Not sure if I'm with that but that's interesting. I do think a lot of our worship services have became very "individualistic" but not so much because of salvation but of getting blessings and needing to be encouraged.

One last thing I'll say to jump start this discussion is the author's argument against pragmatism. I would make the argument that the "personal preference" argument comes from pragmatism, which basically says if it works, go with it.

Ok that's enough. Yall come on and dig in!!

[blyempowered]

I would.

I can't tell you how many impromptu, spontaneous worship gathering I've been a part of. The people in my circle of "friends" are all worshippers and praisers. Jesus is our lifestyle, not just what we do on Sabbaths or Sundays. So, it's nothing for us to end up in worship while sitting around someone's living room. Whenever we're together, we're digging into the Word. We'll take praise breaks in the parking lot, speak in tongues on a road trip, prophesy, sing hymns, minister to each other, etc.

So yeah, that's the norm for us.

One story I remember (cause y'all know I got a story for everything... lol): a few months ago, two sisters and I were returning to Selma from a weekend trip to Dallas. We left Dallas on Sunday morning, going straight to church in Selma. On the road that morning, I got a call from a young lady from Springfield I used to minister to. She was in an abusive marriage and her husband had just hit her, so she was packing to leave and wanted to come to meet me. After I dealt with her, my sisters and I began to pray. We prayed for a good hour or so and really went in. After prayer, we just kinda flowed into worship as one of the sisters started a hymn and we all joined in, then did hymn medleys... then, the other sister began sharing what the Lord was speaking to her, read the scriptures, and gave insight as the Holy Ghost gave it to her. We went back into worship, and the next thing we know, we were in Selma. That was a 7 hour trip and we spent about 5 in worship.

Oh wow! And sorry I think we were both typing at the same time.....LOL!!

But let me ask you this: does this "spontaneity" of worship go against in some form your emphasis on order and structure? I'm just asking to be asking....LOL!

[LaylaMonroe]

I'm actually still working on Ch3, have to run to an appointment at 11, and I'm intending to finish up the last few pages on the train. I just finished reading the discussion on pragmatism and it made me pull my pencil out and jot down some notes.

One thing that especially jumped out at me was this:

Contemporary Christianity still reflects this ideology. Pragmatism is unspiritual, not just because it encourages ethical considerations to be secondary, but because it depends on techniques rather than on God to produce the desired effects.

...

Unfortunately, pragmatism ("if it works let's do it"), not biblical principle or spirituality, governs the activities of many present-day churches.

...

The philosophy of pragmatism opens the door for human manipulation and a complete reliance upon oneself rather than upon God.

That was pretty heavy.

The authors implied that pragmatism was kinda born from the whole revival era. But what I'm thinking is that this stuff hasn't brought revival at all. In fact, I don't even think that's our present day goal. I think that nowadays, every "gimmick" (or technique, if you prefer) we try is employed with the goal of adding members to the church because that's how we define success.

Gotta run. More later.

I do want to talk about the order of service piece, because I approached this chapter finding it to be worthless, but I think I'm changing my mind as I begin to digest and pray about what I'm reading.

[sjonathan02]

Alright, so let me dig in.

I found this quote interesting: "The meetings of the early church were marked by every-member functioning, spontaneity, freedom, vibrancy and open participation." I think you could make a case that most church services are not ran like this. Again, I would call "testimony service" the closest to this. It would be interesting to find a church that does service like this. If I'm not mistaken, the Quakers did their worship gatherings kind of like this. Again, I ask: how would you feel being in a worship service without an "order of worship" and basically everything being led by the Spirit?

Do you all agree with Luther presenting preaching as the main aspect of the worship service? It seems like before Luther the Eucharist (Mass/Communion) was center piece of the worship service. It seems to me like there's been a history of people putting in what they want for the worship service. From Luther making preaching the primary goal of the worship service to Zqingli proposing the Lord's supper quarterly. It just seems like so many have added their interpretation of what a worship service should hold and followers treated some of this as "major."

I also found interesting how the author argues that the preaching of salvation (you know the Billy Graham type-preaching, fundamentalist baptist, etc) during the Revival-movement time led the worship service to be more "individualistic, subjective and emotional." Not sure if I'm with that but that's interesting. I do think a lot of our worship services have became very "individualistic" but not so much because of salvation but of getting blessings and needing to be encouraged.

One last thing I'll say to jump start this discussion is the author's argument against pragmatism. I would make the argument that the "personal preference" argument comes from pragmatism, which basically says if it works, go with it.

Ok that's enough. Yall come on and dig in!!

I swear fo' Gawd, if you ever type a sentence like this again.....


It's 'run', dude, 'run'.

[blyempowered]

I swear fo' Gawd, if you ever type a sentence like this again.....


It's 'run', dude, 'run'.

*sigh*.....LOL!!!

[sjonathan02]

How many of you all would feel comfortable going to a worship gathering that didn't have an "order of worship" and just flowed?

Not for nothin', I found their idea of a 'flowing' service to be quite similar.

Come in, be greeted, pray, sing, share what God has done for you that week (or, yesterday depending on when the group meets).

With the exception of sharing what God has done and no sermon, seems like a regular church service.

And, I'm sure their 'announcements' came in the form of 'We'll meet at such and such time tomorrow (or whenever).'

*kanyeshrug*

[blyempowered]

Not for nothin', I found their idea of a 'flowing' service to be quite similar.

Come in, be greeted, pray, sing, share what God has done for you that week (or, yesterday depending on when the group meets).

With the exception of sharing what God has done and no sermon, seems like a regular church service.

And, I'm sure their 'announcements' came in the form of 'We'll meet at such and such time tomorrow (or whenever).'

*kanyeshrug*

Interesting. I think the difference would be is that every week it wouldn't have to be in same order (singing, testimonies, etc). That, to me is the major difference.

[sjonathan02]

Interesting. I think the difference would be is that every week it wouldn't have to be in same order (singing, testimonies, etc). That, to me is the major difference.

I wouldn't call it a 'major' difference.  There's only so many combinations of flipping the two that, after awhile, it wouldn't really matter.

I think a bigger difference (maybe) would be how long each was done. For example, a typical worship team sings three songs exhorting between each one as well as before and after. 

Well, what if the team only sang two songs? What about only one? What about only exhortation with no songs?


See what I'm saying?