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Author Topic: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna  (Read 85850 times)

Offline lordluvr

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Was that on purpose as well? ?/? :P :D
Unfortunately, no.  :(

Offline sjonathan02

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Singing

There's something profoundly funny about your response.

a. It's what I thought when I typed my post.

b. It's just too simple to work.


You know, LaRue made a quip yesterday intimating that I'm concerned about losing my job but, maybe, I, as a P&W leader SHOULD lose my job.

Imagine if we did just sing because we recognize God for who He is and for the gift of His son?

No real 'pump up'. Just, "And now, we'll sing 'I give myself away'." The musicians start playing (or, the sound guy hits 'play' ::)) and the congregation, with no one in front of them, just. sings?


Hmmm.....
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

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I look at "chasing after you" like I want more of God in my life, His heart, His desires, etc.

Offline lordluvr

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My pastor asked the praise team, in my absence (I was sick that day or something), why are we chasing after Him.  They gave him acceptable responses, based on what I've shared with them, but as I think about it, I, too, have issues with the concept of the song (which explains why we've only sung it twice).


So now my question is, if we're not singing/playing to invoke the presence of God because He's already within us, are we singing to encourage one another as Paul tells us to do in Ephesians and Colossians?

What are we doing when we sing unto the Lord a new song?   ?/?
You're doing just what the name of the team that sings it implies.  You're praising and worshiping Him.  Look at it this way, when the Levites did their oblations unto the Lord, and ministered unto him in the temple with praise, prayer and the playing of instruments, they were doing so in His presence.  So, why does that have to differ now?  Instead of singing songs to invoke His presence, we now sing songs because He is and because He's present and because He deserves praise and to be worshiped.

Offline lordluvr

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There's something profoundly funny about your response.

a. It's what I thought when I typed my post.

b. It's just too simple to work.


You know, LaRue made a quip yesterday intimating that I'm concerned about losing my job but, maybe, I, as a P&W leader SHOULD lose my job.

Imagine if we did just sing because we recognize God for who He is and for the gift of His son?

No real 'pump up'. Just, "And now, we'll sing 'I give myself away'." The musicians start playing (or, the sound guy hits 'play' ::)) and the congregation, with no one in front of them, just. sings?


Hmmm.....
You know, I must type really slow.  Your response and mine, though worded differently, are saying the same thing.

Offline sjonathan02

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You know, I must type really slow.  Your response and mine, though worded differently, are saying the same thing.

Yea, they are. Which is good to know. It's nice to believe that I'm on the right track. Or, at the very least, in great company.
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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There's something profoundly funny about your response.

a. It's what I thought when I typed my post.

b. It's just too simple to work.


You know, LaRue made a quip yesterday intimating that I'm concerned about losing my job but, maybe, I, as a P&W leader SHOULD lose my job.

Imagine if we did just sing because we recognize God for who He is and for the gift of His son?

No real 'pump up'. Just, "And now, we'll sing 'I give myself away'." The musicians start playing (or, the sound guy hits 'play' ::)) and the congregation, with no one in front of them, just. sings?


Hmmm.....

Did I really??? I hope I was just joking.  :-\ That sounds kinda catty if I did say that to you and wasn't joking.  :-[ And of course, I can't remember it... lol

Anyway, I don't know that P&W leaders should lose their jobs, but I do think that in the ideal church, we need to restructure what they are doing. No matter how we put it, the role itself involves a lot of hype - in fact, I would say that in many cases, the P&W leader is the hype man (think Flava Flav... lol) in a stage production. Sure s/he leads the people into worship, but ideally, we wouldn't need to be led. And even if we do, it shouldn't involve cajoling and hyping and all that stuff. Just exhortation. Encouragement. And it should be participatory, not performance.

You're doing just what the name of the team that sings it implies.  You're praising and worshiping Him.  Look at it this way, when the Levites did their oblations unto the Lord, and ministered unto him in the temple with praise, prayer and the playing of instruments, they were doing so in His presence.  So, why does that have to differ now?  Instead of singing songs to invoke His presence, we now sing songs because He is and because He's present and because He deserves praise and to be worshiped.

I agree with that. We should still be singing unto the Lord to bless Him, to minister to Him, to praise Him, to worship Him, to magnify, exalt, honor and extol Him.

We don't have to perform tricks to get Him to show up. He inhabits the praises of Israel, His people. Where two or three are gathered together in His name, He promised to be there in the midst. So, we should still be singing to Him (and playing our instruments) because He's still Shammah.
When you're in love you don't want to fall asleep bc reality is finally better than your dreams.

Offline sjonathan02

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Did I really??? I hope I was just joking.   :-\ That sounds kinda catty if I did say that to you and wasn't joking.  :-[ And of course, I can't remember it... lol

Anyway, I don't know that P&W leaders should lose their jobs, but I do think that in the ideal church, we need to restructure what they are doing. No matter how we put it, the role itself involves a lot of hype - in fact, I would say that in many cases, the P&W leader is the hype man (think Flava Flav... lol) in a stage production. Sure s/he leads the people into worship, but ideally, we wouldn't need to be led. And even if we do, it shouldn't involve cajoling and hyping and all that stuff. Just exhortation. Encouragement. And it should be participatory, not performance.

I agree with that. We should still be singing unto the Lord to bless Him, to minister to Him, to praise Him, to worship Him, to magnify, exalt, honor and extol Him.

We don't have to perform tricks to get Him to show up. He inhabits the praises of Israel, His people. Where two or three are gathered together in His name, He promised to be there in the midst. So, we should still be singing to Him (and playing our instruments) because He's still Shammah.

You did and you were (had a smiley and everything).  ;) It's all good (besides, it's like 8 pages back or something :-\ :D).

Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline lordluvr

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I've got to say, the way this discussion is going is the EXACT reason why I decided to join the "book club".  Great stuff.  I need to start reading chapter 3 now.

blyempowered

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I've got to say, the way this discussion is going is the EXACT reason why I decided to join the "book club".  Great stuff.  I need to start reading chapter 3 now.

Absolutely! I'm about 3/4 done with chapter 3....JESUS!! Where's everyone at in chapter 3? That chapter is going to talk about the "order of worship" phenomenon.

I definitely can't wait to get to the music ministry chapter and the one about dressing up for church....LOL!

Offline phbrown

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Imagine if we did just sing because we recognize God for who He is and for the gift of His son?

No real 'pump up'. Just, "And now, we'll sing 'I give myself away'." The musicians start playing (or, the sound guy hits 'play' ::)) and the congregation, with no one in front of them, just. sings?
Hmmm.....

are you saying remove the spectator element? if so ... that would interesting ....

Offline phbrown

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Absolutely! I'm about 3/4 done with chapter 3....JESUS!! Where's everyone at in chapter 3? That chapter is going to talk about the "order of worship" phenomenon.

I definitely can't wait to get to the music ministry chapter and the one about dressing up for church....LOL!


I'm ready to discuss chapter 3 whenever the rest of the group is :D .... i got a bit ahead when my son managed to sleep through the night a few times

Offline LaylaMonroe

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You did and you were (had a smiley and everything).  ;) It's all good (besides, it's like 8 pages back or something :-\ :D).



Whew. :)

I've got to say, the way this discussion is going is the EXACT reason why I decided to join the "book club".  Great stuff.  I need to start reading chapter 3 now.

Same here. I can't even express how much I'm enjoying this discussion with such brilliant minds. I'm loving this group and I'm getting something from each of you. It's a great group.

I started Chapter 3. Just pretty much SMH mostly. LOL. But thus far, it's nothing I haven't already said myself.

Absolutely! I'm about 3/4 done with chapter 3....JESUS!! Where's everyone at in chapter 3? That chapter is going to talk about the "order of worship" phenomenon.

I definitely can't wait to get to the music ministry chapter and the one about dressing up for church....LOL!

I didn't bring the book with me today, but I think I'm about 10-15 pages into chapter 3. Coincidentally, last night, I picked up a new novel and as of this moment, I'm on page 167. SMH.

When you're in love you don't want to fall asleep bc reality is finally better than your dreams.

Offline sjonathan02

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are you saying remove the spectator element? if so ... that would interesting ....
Essentially.
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Quote
Imagine if we did just sing because we recognize God for who He is and for the gift of His son?

No real 'pump up'. Just, "And now, we'll sing 'I give myself away'." The musicians start playing (or, the sound guy hits 'play' ::)) and the congregation, with no one in front of them, just. sings?
Hmmm.....

You know what, Jonathan - you are actually in a position to make that happen. And I don't think it would be too drastic or uncomfortable a change. Sure you can't effect change in the church worldwide right now, but you sure can make a difference in your local church. Maybe that's your responsibility, even. *just thinking*
When you're in love you don't want to fall asleep bc reality is finally better than your dreams.

Offline LaylaMonroe

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While we're still on the P&W subject, I think the old school devotional services had a lot more of a participatory element than modern P&W. Don't get me wrong, I love what we do today... but looking back, I think devotional service fostered more of a mutual participation and practically NO performance at all (except for the occasional testimony-giver who was a professional performer... lol).
When you're in love you don't want to fall asleep bc reality is finally better than your dreams.

blyempowered

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I absolutely agree LaRue!

Offline LaylaMonroe

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Dang. We're on p13 of this thread and only on Chapter 2... lol.
When you're in love you don't want to fall asleep bc reality is finally better than your dreams.

blyempowered

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And I believe both can be used for God's glory. While I'm a little more of a fan of P&W than devotional service I just think both have pros and cons.

Offline musicbishop

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Just to let everyone know, I'm here. I've been reading all responses. I must admit I'm so used to some of the stuff that's being talked about. I can hardly find any other way to see it other than how it already is.

I may be saying this to early but alot of the stuff we do is not scriptual but if it's not hurting the body (I mean really hurting) what's so bad about it.

I have to admit I love some traditions because they help to show unity, order, and possibly things that helped us make it through as people. I like when new things are incorporated because times are changing, so how people relate to things change as well.

I guess right now I really don't know what I'm trying to say lol So I'll keep reading and see where it takes me.
The Chapters before life really begins don't matter, but, the ones after can never be erased
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