May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[blyempowered]

It isn't.  I've read the 2nd chapter.

That's interesting because it is suppose to talk about church building (how it became of preeminence) and I thought when I glanced I saw something about synagogue. Oh well, I'll look again (don't have book in front of me).

[lordluvr]

It did talk about church buildings.  If he made a reference to synagogues, I don't remember the context.  However, the point I mentioned was in direct response to what he said in chapter 1, regarding the building versus the collective.

[sjonathan02]

Seems to me, some of what you mentioned falls in both categories.  The bottom line is that a distraction is a distraction, no matter what the origin.

Agreed. I'll go further to say that even if we got it 'right' that doesn't mean we won't be distracted. 

[sjonathan02]

Good point! I think the problem of the building is when it becomes the centerpiece of the Christian worship experience/service instead of the ministry work. Also I think the problem is when people think that a fellowship of believers with proper leadership meeting at a place like a coffee shop is not a proper "church."

What's that mean?  Can't folks do something akin to what we're doing now, only discussing the Bible?

[phbrown]

Brown, LL, Jonathan, yall give your take on that please.

You really can't determine it in my opinion. Any blanket rule we come up with will backfire.

[phbrown]

That may be touched upon in the next chapter.

Ok, let me ask this: If we're saying that the scripture given does not justify communion as a full meal, what evidence do we have that the bread and wine practice that happens generally in the protestant division of Christianity is the "correct" way of communion?

Also, I am open to believe that in the communion practices of the Early church they did have a time in which they took bread and then wine as symbolic of the body and blood of the Lord but yet it seems to me that the communion practice was a part of the meal, not necessarily separate (or on a separate occasion). To me, when I see "supper" I'm thinking full meal. Plus, isn't there evidence that the circle bread and cup (wine or grape juice) is a practice from catholicism that has spread through Protestantism?

The communion occured after the passover meal right?

Matt. 26:17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

The passover starts with a meal

Jewish Traditions : How to Celebrate Passover

I think this is the meal you are refering to. Personally I'm not jewish so I don't celebrate the passover. If anything just go watch a jewish family celebrate the passover and you will have an idea of what the bread and the wine looked like if you really want to know. Because that is how Jesus would have celebrated it since he was Jewish.

Also I think the problem is when people think that a fellowship of believers with proper leadership meeting at a place like a coffee shop is not a proper "church."

Who ever says that is an idiot. And sadly this world is full of idiots

[phbrown]

Agreed. I'll go further to say that even if we got it 'right' that doesn't mean we won't be distracted.

+1

[lordluvr]

In a nutshell, paraphrasing what LaRue said, chapter one was somewhat of a letdown for me. 

[blyempowered]

Ahhh I see it now! The communion happening after the passover meal. So basically I'm arguing for a passover meal, a Jewish custom.....hmmmm!

[lordluvr]

Ahhh I see it now! The communion happening after the passover meal. So basically I'm arguing for a passover meal, a Jewish custom.....hmmmm!

*The clouds open and a brightness engulfs the atmosphere, followed by an angelic host singing...*

Hallelujah!!!

[blyempowered]

*The clouds open and a brightness engulfs the atmosphere, followed by an angelic host singing...*

Hallelujah!!!

*in my BH voice* Hallelujah.....dear Jesus I give you praise.....Hallelujah.....Hallelujah... ..thank you for your anointing....Hallelujah!!!

[blyempowered]

I'm in the middle of chapter 2....SMH! Wow!

[sjonathan02]

*in my BH voice* Hallelujah.....dear Jesus I give you praise.....Hallelujah.....Hallelujah... ..thank you for your anointing....Hallelujah!!!

Baptist Handler

Baptist Helper

 

[LaylaMonroe]

Yeah, what's the BH thing abt??

OAN, I hate I missed this discussion, but trust, I will be replying as soon as I get settled. Hit the ground running as soon as I landed yesterday.

[musicbishop]

Sorry I pretty much missed the discussion got real busy at work yesterday and was dead tired when I got home.

I did read everything but I must admit due to me getting my book saturday I crammed everything in and I don't remember anything I read. I will say that some of the quotes given did catch my attention ( i like nice quotes). I also liked the opening story about the guy and his family on sunday mornings. why? Idk I guess it was a good way to grab my attention.


I think I'll skim through so I can at least put something of value .02 in this first discussion, but I won't be able to until I get home.

[sjonathan02]

Folks, try to remember that the discussion is ongoing. Just because you miss Thursday, doesn't mean that you won't have the opportunity to make a salient point afterward. 

[blyempowered]

I just finished chapter 2 and I almost want to quit reading...SMH!

[phbrown]

I just finished chapter 2 and I almost want to quit reading...SMH!

huh? Why

granted I got the same feeling after about chapter 5 starting to have a bit of trouble motivating myself

[blyempowered]

huh? Why

granted I got the same feeling after about chapter 5 starting to have a bit of trouble motivating myself

I love this book and think it is really a classic book, but this book is very troubling to me. It makes me want to do further research on the topics discussed so far. If all of this proves to be true (particularly the historic aspects of how certain things came to be), wow, it's like I'll start asking more questions like how we get back to that place.

I don't want to jump ahead but based on reading chapter 2 it seems like the author is making the case that with Jesus being born, died and resurrected from the dead EVERYTHING connected to the Old Covenant/Judaic tradition is squashed and therefore nothing should reflect that (the classic debate of the role of the Old Testament in Christianity comes to play here).

To a certain extent, I agree with some of what he said, especially as it relates to the Temple. We actually did a series in Sunday School on the Temple and I had to teach from John 2 when Jesus says "destroy this temple and I'll raise it up in 3 days." While the Jews were thinking physical, Jesus was thinking spiritual.

But idk. I love this book but it's almost like "if I continue to stay in an establishment that is supposedly far from the biblical standard (according to this author), am I supporting the establishment?" Now he does have a book that is considered the sequel to this one called "Reimagining Church" which offers "solutions" to what he talks about in this book. I may get that book. But I'm also interested (as I said) in doing further research on what he talked about, particularly the historic origins of the things he talked about.

Sorry Bro. Brown for putting all this out, but I hope I answered the question...somewhat.....LOL!

[lordluvr]

I just finished chapter 2 and I almost want to quit reading...SMH!

I'm interested to know why you feel this way.