May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[LaylaMonroe]

I'm only a few pages in, but thus far, Chapter 5 is hitting on all the questions I've had for at least a year now. In my mind, they were phrased differently:

"Which of the Bible characters were pastors?" "Which were bishops?" "How did we come to define the role of a pastor?" "What about the role of a bishop?"

How did we come to believe pastoring was a "calling"? How did we come to believe in the "office of the Pastor" or the "office of the prophet?" You learn about all the different "offices" but where did it come from, if not the Bible?

How did I manage to go along for all these years without ever asking these questions???

*looking forward to getting deeper into Ch5*

[phbrown]

*runs out to car to reread page 98*

[phbrown]

Page 98 is going to mess. folks. up.

*slow head nod*

[blyempowered]

Ummm wow! This book....#thatisall

[phbrown]

WOOT ITS JUNE 9TH!!!
I really love chapter 4 but the interesting thing was not because of how it relates to sermons but how I liked my lectures when I was in college and that is what sealed it for me.


I truly prefer a dialogue when it comes to me learning something and when I was in college if I had a teacher who asked questions/answered questions while lecturing I learned a lot more.

[blyempowered]

I'm on my way in!!

[LaylaMonroe]

Unfortunately, I'm not sure I'll be able to lead a discussion today... for one, my day is going to be busier than usual. But more importantly, my brain is already acting a little scattered today. Not sure my thoughts will have much coherence. I'll try to reply to others' comments, though.

And that reminds me. I'm going to find the other comment I was supposed to respond to the other day... right now!

[blyempowered]

Yay!

[LaylaMonroe]

1. Honestly, that's what I'm beginning to believe preaching boils down to.....basically are you able to speak in front of people? It's like everyone can explain the Word but everyone is not gifted to speak and declare in front of people. Idk if I totally agree with that logic. Also, what is your personal view of how gifts operate? To be honest, what you said "thus being better suited........." makes me go back to my traditional view that everyone is NOT called to preach from the pulpit. But again, I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that says that there is something "unique" that makes someone called to preach because a lot of sermons are (and I haven't preached my initial sermon........yet basically the same.

2. The problem with this question is that some will argue that we have to look at "thus saith the Lord" in the context that the Bible was written in, which would mean (according to this view) that there are some things that do not apply now because the world is different. This belief is a very conflicting thing for me. I don't have a full stance on it but I'm just saying.

First, I agree with both of PHB's responses to your questions, Churchy.

In response to the above quoted replies:

1. If there is no Biblical pulpit, how can everyone or ANYONE be "called" to preach from it?? What does it mean to be called to preach from the pulpit if there never was a pulpit ordained by Jesus in the first place?

Now I do believe that there are some people who are predisposed to be equipped to preach (similar to what PHB said) because of their gifts AND knowledge of the Word. But, to say that not everyone is called to preach from the pulpit just can't be Biblically supported. I think it's the "from the pulpit" part, and all its implications, that throws me off.

And before we even get to all of that, we still have to figure out how we can reconcile preaching today with the preaching referred to in the Bible. It's just not the same. This is part of the reason I'm not sure there IS a calling to preach. If we define preaching using the Biblical precedents, the requirements change, so the idea of a need to be called changes, too. (IMO)

On a related note, Churchy, what is it that made YOU personally believe you were "called" to preach and pastor?

2. Hmm... I forgot the original question. I'll be back.

[LaylaMonroe]

Okay, for the second question, I agree with PHB. As long as the cultural stuff doesn't add to or take away from what Jesus has established, I'm fine with it. In general, I just think less is more, and "keep it simple" should be doctrine.

[phbrown]

woot woot she agreed with me twice ... today may be a good day after all just kidding

[blyempowered]

First, I agree with both of PHB's responses to your questions, Churchy.

In response to the above quoted replies:

1. If there is no Biblical pulpit, how can everyone or ANYONE be "called" to preach from it?? What does it mean to be called to preach from the pulpit if there never was a pulpit ordained by Jesus in the first place?

Now I do believe that there are some people who are predisposed to be equipped to preach (similar to what PHB said) because of their gifts AND knowledge of the Word. But, to say that not everyone is called to preach from the pulpit just can't be Biblically supported. I think it's the "from the pulpit" part, and all its implications, that throws me off.

And before we even get to all of that, we still have to figure out how we can reconcile preaching today with the preaching referred to in the Bible. It's just not the same. This is part of the reason I'm not sure there IS a calling to preach. If we define preaching using the Biblical precedents, the requirements change, so the idea of a need to be called changes, too. (IMO)

On a related note, Churchy, what is it that made YOU personally believe you were "called" to preach and pastor?

2. Hmm... I forgot the original question. I'll be back.

I'll be honest. As I've read the chapter on sermons and the "pastor" (and also skipping head reading something about the "youth" pastor) it's made me reevaluate my "calling. To be honest (and I've never shared this much on here so here I go....), I've dealt with this "calling/desire" to preach since childhood. To sound clicheish (is that a word), I'm one of those ones who preached as a child, in the back yard of my house. I've always been asked about being a preacher and one of our guest preachers even talked about me preaching (in front of everyone at bible study) before even speaking to me.

My "calling" to pastor comes from my heart for serving people. But honestly, more of my passion/desire/calling is pastoring Youth. If I was to get an opportunity to be a "senior" pastor (hate that term), I might take it but my heart is more for pastoring youth.

At the same time I'm not rushing into anything (as you can tell, I've been pondering on this for years). I'm continually evaluating my motives asking the "why" of this thing. I have a desire to speak and declare the Word of the Lord, but for me I'm not trying to be the next so and so. I want to declare what God has spoke in His word! I truly believe God has equipped me to speak to His people for such a time as this.

Bottomline: preaching and pastoring for me will be about being a servant of Jesus Christ, not boosting my ego!

[blyempowered]

Alright, so I think I"ll share my thoughts on chapter 4 (I'll do chapter 5 later).

This chapter was very hard for me to get with because I've always believed that the sermon is the most important part of the service. To even argue that the "contemporary" idea of the sermon is not biblically precedent is like.....WHOA! First I would disagree (from a black church perspective) that sermons are generally monologue. Our tradition is very big on call and response. And it seems like that practice is moving into many types of churches. We can say "amen", "preach", "well" to the preacher and it be normal. I believe the black church supports participation (again the sense of talking to the preacher) but not interruptions (as far as asking questions, etc). On page 57 in the footnotes, the author talks about how preaching in the synagogue allowed anyone to preach. I have to still wonder if this "everyone wants to be a preacher" attitude is justified and rooted in the biblical (they are arguing it's biblical) idea of everyone participating in the worship service.

Do you all agree or disagree that Jesus' sermon on the mount is not the same as many sermons in today's church?

Honestly, I just can't see many modern day preachers/pastors supporting the biblically-argued idea of having services in which everyone participates. To me, I think many pastors/preachers would put this "mutual participation" thing in small groups.

I found the stuff on the sophists very interesting! And I had to ask myself if black church preaching has a "sophist" attitude, which includes "emotional appeals, physical appearance and clever language." I would still make the case that the black church values style more than substance. Then I started reading about Aristotle's "three point" principle and we see this VERY dominant in contemporary preaching. Again, whether people believe these practices should occur or not, just seeing the supposed origins of these things is like.....WOW!

They were also talking about how people had to be "educated" to preach. Is it possible that we've made preaching too complicated in which you have to go to seminary just to preach in the present system? I'm not anti-seminary but I wonder sometimes if they've made certain things that were not meant to be complicated...complicated.

Do you all agree or disagree with the 5 ways the author argues sermonizing hurts the church? (1. Sermon makes the preacher the virtuoso performer of the regular church gathering; 2. The sermon often stalemates spiritual growth (I think I may agree with this one for sure because of cliches', lack of applicaton/substance, and mimicking; this is why I love the "Rick Warren" idea of creating handouts at church. ); 3. The sermon preserves the unbiblical clergy mentality; 4. Rather than equipping the saints, the sermon de-skills them (I think I may agree with this one too); 5. Today's sermon is often impractical (Definitely agree that many sermons, especially in black tradition lack application)).

Ok that's enough for now.

[LaylaMonroe]

You can serve Jesus (and youth) without being a preacher or a pastor or having any sort of title at all. I think it's great to evaluate, and continue to evaluate, your motives. There was something that had a great impact on me, so much so that it literally changed my outlook even concerning my own title and "office" in ministry. It was the passage on p121 that discussed how the classism began to develop within Christianity, and how suddenly, everyone started hearing this "call" to ministry.

I'm not speaking directly to or about you, Churchy. This is so much bigger than you and I, or any of us. The truth is, we DO have a lot of folks who claim to be called to preach, and honestly, I'm not even sure what that means. And I don't think they're sure either.

I think that if we could dig deeply enough, a vast majority (vast) would be found to be pursuing a higher class and not just looking to serve Jesus. I think that in too many cases, it all comes down to personality characteristics, leadership qualities, character, abilities, skills, etc.

I know (now) why people always told me what I was called to do. I believe firmly that I was born to be an administrator. My wiring confirms that. I believe that there is a prophetic gift on my life. For varied reasons, people say I'm called to preach. For other reasons, people say I'm called to teach.

But I'm realizing NOW, that none of that is as spiritual or as deep as the church makes it out to be. The Bible says many are called (not ALL, but many). And only a FEW are chosen. So what exactly does it mean to be "called"?

Bottom line, I think most of us pursue the class above pursuing the call. If that weren't true, there'd be a lot more Christians doing what JWs and Muslims do, going out into the highways and hedges, standing on the street corners and going door to door. But we don't want to do that because there's no glory in that. We want the title, the pulpit, the spotlight, and a captive audience. God help us.

[blyempowered]

You can serve Jesus (and youth) without being a preacher or a pastor or having any sort of title at all. I think it's great to evaluate, and continue to evaluate, your motives. There was something that had a great impact on me, so much so that it literally changed my outlook even concerning my own title and "office" in ministry. It was the passage on p121 that discussed how the classism began to develop within Christianity, and how suddenly, everyone started hearing this "call" to ministry.

I'm not speaking directly to or about you, Churchy. This is so much bigger than you and I, or any of us. The truth is, we DO have a lot of folks who claim to be called to preach, and honestly, I'm not even sure what that means. And I don't think they're sure either.

I think that if we could dig deeply enough, a vast majority (vast) would be found to be pursuing a higher class and not just looking to serve Jesus. I think that in too many cases, it all comes down to personality characteristics, leadership qualities, character, abilities, skills, etc.

I know (now) why people always told me what I was called to do. I believe firmly that I was born to be an administrator. My wiring confirms that. I believe that there is a prophetic gift on my life. For varied reasons, people say I'm called to preach. For other reasons, people say I'm called to teach.

But I'm realizing NOW, that none of that is as spiritual or as deep as the church makes it out to be. The Bible says many are called (not ALL, but many). And only a FEW are chosen. So what exactly does it mean to be "called"?

Bottom line, I think most of us pursue the class above pursuing the call. If that weren't true, there'd be a lot more Christians doing what JWs and Muslims do, going out into the highways and hedges, standing on the street corners and going door to door. But we don't want to do that because there's no glory in that. We want the title, the pulpit, the spotlight, and a captive audience. God help us.

Wow! I remember reading that and was thinking "that confirms what I've been saying about why I think SOME people go into preaching."

[blyempowered]

Honestly I want to hear some opinions from pastors and preachers that are a part of our LGM Family (even if they haven't read the chapter).

[LaylaMonroe]

Honestly I want to hear some opinions from pastors and preachers that are a part of our LGM Family (even if they haven't read the chapter).

I'd suggest posing a question in the Lounge.

[blyempowered]

Yeah I may do that later today.

[phbrown]

Do you all agree or disagree that Jesus' sermon on the mount is not the same as many sermons in today's church?
not the same in that it doesn't happen on every sabbath at 12:35pm, but otherwise to me they are about the same


Honestly, I just can't see many modern day preachers/pastors supporting the biblically-argued idea of having services in which everyone participates. To me, I think many pastors/preachers would put this "mutual participation" thing in small groups.

I know I would, anything larger than 10 and its hard for a group to discuss a topic and stay on topic

I found the stuff on the sophists very interesting! And I had to ask myself if black church preaching has a "sophist" attitude, which includes "emotional appeals, physical appearance and clever language."

Just remembered a thread talking about how educated and uneducated people were clashing in the church on how to do things. And then here we have sophist who use "clever" language and then we have some of those who purposely mispronounced words to say they are more country, more down to earth, more Christ like... in the end its an appeal

I would still make the case that the black church values style more than substance. +1 Then I started reading about Aristotle's "three point" principle and we see this VERY dominant in contemporary preaching. Again, whether people believe these practices should occur or not, just seeing the supposed origins of these things is like.....WOW!

They were also talking about how people had to be "educated" to preach. Is it possible that we've made preaching too complicated in which you have to go to seminary just to preach in the present system?
isn't that also called the Clergy Laity divide? now personally I like the divide to a certain extent. It makes it a little more difficult for random new teaching fads to take place. Assuming the Clergy actually studied the word then normally they don't fall for some of that stuff. (yes there are some who do, but not everyone started preaching the "Forgive You --- F You" message and that is the advantage I'm referring too)

I'm not anti-seminary but I wonder sometimes if they've made certain things that were not meant to be complicated...complicated. its not complicated nothing complicated, people build houses on 5th grade educations, we just pretend they are complicated but they aren't

Do you all agree or disagree with the 5 ways the author argues sermonizing hurts the church? (1. Sermon makes the preacher the virtuoso performer of the regular church gathering I agree; 2. The sermon often stalemates spiritual growth (I think I may agree with this one for sure because of cliches', lack of application/substance, and mimicking; this is why I love the "Rick Warren" idea of creating handouts at church. ); Yes and no, sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't help 3. The sermon preserves the unbiblical clergy mentality; Yep it does that, but I'm not certain that it is bad for the reason previously mentioned 4. Rather than equipping the saints, the sermon de-skills them (I think I may agree with this one too); Depends who is talking, When peter (or was it Paul ... blah I forgot) talked through the night I'm sure he equipped the people before he left5. Today's sermon is often impractical (Definitely agree that many sermons, especially in black tradition lack application)). disagree, many times my earthly father would teach me things as a child that I didn't understand nor know how to apply but later on I would be able to use it.

Ok that's enough for now.

[blyempowered]

@phbrown could a case be made biblically that the clergy/laity divide goes against NT principles?