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Author Topic: May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna  (Read 85435 times)

blyempowered

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I believe I'm torn on this issue.  I mean, I have no problem 'giving honor to whom honor is due'. If we can do that for presidents and kings, why not the pastor.  I have an idea of what my pastor does to prepare for Sunday and Wednesday, I'm not that diligent in my studying (just being real) so he can have it.

At the same time, I can understand the almost deification of some pastors @ some churches and it's a mess--a hot. mess.

I perfectly understand what you're saying.
 :-\

Offline LaylaMonroe

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I believe I'm torn on this issue.  I mean, I have no problem 'giving honor to whom honor is due'. If we can do that for presidents and kings, why not the pastor.  I have an idea of what my pastor does to prepare for Sunday and Wednesday, I'm not that diligent in my studying (just being real) so he can have it.

At the same time, I can understand the almost deification of some pastors @ some churches and it's a mess--a hot. mess. 


I am too. For the same reasons you noted.

I don't have a problem giving anyone credit. But I do have a problem with this credit being given during the worship gathering/service, and I have a problem with excessive honor (which is exactly what we see a lot of in the Black church).

Look at how humbly Paul and the other apostles served in ministry. Look at their accommodations, their travel arrangements, their honorarium policies, their use of titles. Compare that to what we have today. It's excessive.
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Offline musicbishop

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1. The pastors' names on the board outside the church.

(nope just had a new sign made his name's not there)

2. Special seating for pastors, first lady, first family, visiting pastors, and/or clergy.

(he sits in the congregation said that earlier) we do have the seats normally no one uses them so I'll give u 1/2 lol

3. Acknowledging the pastor & first family during the service. You know the usual "we thank God for our pastor... Oh come on, you can do better than that!" and everyone claps and stands, roaring for the wonderful pastor.

(not often other than the fact that he does a lot of physical labor i.e. cleaning, gardening, maintenance, stuff of that nature)


4. Special parking spaces for pastors, first family.

(nope)

5. Don't get me started on the whole adjutant thing (which I think is more common in pentecostal Black churches).

(IDK what that is?)

6. Special clergy attire.

(he dresses down about 75% of the year suits 20% robe 5%)

7. Special clergy elements for communion (ex. in some churches, the pastor has a special goblet to drink out of for communion while everyone else drinks from the shot glasses... lol)

(nope he takes the same shot we take lol)

8. Pastor's name on everything, everywhere you look - on programs, letterhead, billboards, flyers... nowadays, I can't imagine NOT doing that. I can give you 20 reasons why you MUST do that... but at the same time, it's marketing MAN and not GOD. It's marketing a local church instead of JESUS. But it's the norm, so...

( other the his name along with telephone number for calls nope)

9. Calling him "Pastor" so-and-so... and everyone without a "special" calling is just Sister or Brother...

(whoever has a title is called by there title majority of the time and I always call him dad so I'll just "shrug on that one lol)

Okay, that's 9...  ;D
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Offline musicbishop

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agreed him and MB (how far are you MB?) I may re read it tonight its been a while since I read that chapter

NOOOOOOOOOO pleas not yet left my book at work gotta get it and I haven't even started ch. 3
The Chapters before life really begins don't matter, but, the ones after can never be erased

Offline musicbishop

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It's funny I had to call my dad just to be sure I was right about his name not being on the sign and the first thing he said was no and I don't believe pastor's names should be on the church sign. I'm just sayin

I have to admit and not just because he's my dad but my pastor is a lot different from the norm HONESTLY
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Offline lordluvr

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I nearly forgot what subject I said I was going to come back and discuss.  I remember now: the divide.

Man, there are so many angles to approach this from, I really don't know where to start.  I remember reading Churchy's comments and coming away thinking, "Hmm....Good stuff", but as of this moment, I don't remember what he said. (And I don't feel like scrolling back).

Ok, I guess I'll tackle the issue first from the perspective of respect.  To some degree, I believe that the clergy deserves some deal more respect by virtue of the performance of their office.  I'll illustrate using my own experience as an example.  When I first came to my church, I was briefly a pew potato and happy to be one.  Then my pastor at the time, called me out and told me the Lord wanted me to be a deacon. (Real life translation: "You're one of the only 3 men here.  We need help cleaning the church.")  Not long into serving in that capacity, I started teaching Sunday School (when we still had a Sunday School).  Teaching Sunday School was the best thing that ever happened to me.  It forced me to be in the word daily.  As a result, I grew by leaps and bounds.  People could easily see how much time I was putting into the word by my knowledge of it.  As a result of my knowledge and study patterns and my role as a teacher, I was afforded a different level of respect than I received as a pew potato.  I view the respect that a pastor should get in the same light.  He studies, meditates, prays, counsels, comforts and visits to a much greater degree than the average layperson, so in my mind, he's earned different level of respect with regard to operating in his office.

Then, there's this concept that the author(s) brought up that I think is prevalent even in today's church- not every church, but enough to where it's a problem.  The concept I'm referring to is viewing the pastor as a substitute for God, or even a type of god.  I have personally seen how people literally worship their pastors.  It's sickening.  If I remember correctly, the author suggests that the original (and subsequent) design of the church buildings helped to foster this idea.  Nowadays, we have pastors that are superstars who get more love and support from their respective congregations than the God that they're supposed to be preaching and teaching about.  The sad thing is that at the root of that is tradition!  In essesnce, congregations have been "trained" over time that this is the way they should view their pastor.  Now check this: in these churches, the evangelists do all of the evangelizing, the deacons do all of the cleaning, the associat ministers do all of the ministering and visiting and administration, while all the pastor does is put on a show from 11-1 every Sunday.  The evangelists, deacons, teachers and ministers are not treated like rock stars (though they are given respect), but the pastor gets all of the glory, so to speak.

I had more, but I've lost my train of thought.  Can't wait to discuss chapter 3.

blyempowered

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@LL good points!

OAN my internet is on a "spiritual vacation" (technical difficulties) so ill be limited at least till Tuesday. I'm here just won't be as active.

Offline phbrown

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@LL good points!

OAN my internet is on a "spiritual vacation" (technical difficulties) so ill be limited at least till Tuesday. I'm here just won't be as active.

grrr!!! unacceptable!

blyempowered

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*sigh* right.

So what if the "laity" studied the Word as much as the "clergy" "supposedly" does....would a clergy/laity divide be necessary? #questiontoponder

blyempowered

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And to me, the issue is not so much if leaders should be respected. I think we all agree leaders should be respected. I think the issue is whether clergy should be seen as "higher" or more important than "laity."

Offline sjonathan02

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And to me, the issue is not so much if leaders should be respected. I think we all agree leaders should be respected. I think the issue is whether clergy should be seen as "higher" or more important than "laity."

To say that clergy aren't more important than laity is akin to saying Steve Jobs isn't higher than the custodians.  :-\

I don't believe God gives a Word for EVERYONE to be able to TEACH everyone else.  That's why pastors are supposed to be 'called'.  There's simply a different level of dedication required by those who desire or are called to pastor.  In THAT way, they are more important. 

BUT, they aren't to be revered as if they are God.  That's the bigger issue to me.

Furthermore, I don't know how many pastors put the onus on themselves (concerning this reverence) versus the laity placing their pastors on pedestals claiming their pastor can do NO wrong.

I believe that's the BIGGEST problem.
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blyempowered

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I see what you're saying. Chapters 3 and 4 I think will challenge the idea that everyone is NOT called to teach God's Word.

Offline vtguy84

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@LL good points!

OAN my internet is on a "spiritual vacation" (technical difficulties) so ill be limited at least till Tuesday. I'm here just won't be as active.

I see what you did here....
www.GetCovered4Life.com (Mortgage Protection, Final Expense, Tax Free Retirement)

blyempowered

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Lol huh?

Offline LaylaMonroe

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I think the question may be: more important to whom? I don't think clergy are more important than laity at all. BUT, I do agree with pretty much everyone that the biggest issue is treating them as though they are gods. That's a problem.

It's so bad in my church (and for the record, it's not by my pastor's request - he couldn't care less), that they have special everything for him. We have fellowship dinners every 4th Sunday, his table is specially decorated with a nice centerpiece, has special servers, glassware, a nice linen and lace tablecloth, extra menu items, and everything. Everyone else has paper plates and plasticware, the dollar store tablecloths... it sounds so minor, but it's little seeds like these that are planted in people's psyches that make them elevate the pastors and clergy above the rest of the people.

That's just the first thought that came to mind. I can think of plenty of other examples.

The church that I go to when I'm in Atlanta and I feel like doing church... OMG... you all wouldn't believe it. I would have to video it and show you in order for you to believe it. I don't even want to go there because I'll just discourage myself. SMH.

It goes back to what LL was saying about how it trains the people over time that we should view our pastors as higher or better or more important or whatever. And we, for so many reasons, take it one step further this year. One step further next year, and so on and so forth... and the next thing we know, we have the beast we see today. I'm all for showing pastors (and all the people of God) respect. I see no reason that clergy should be given special treatment. Their assignment comes from God and so does their reward. If there's anything we can do to make their ministry easier, then I think we should. But some of the stuff we do is more of a courtesy gone wild than just making ministry easy.

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Offline LaylaMonroe

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Okay, you got me on this one... I could give you another 10 and I'm sure I'd eventually get you... but I'm not tryna win. Just want to make the point that today's church is excessively man-centered as opposed to Jesus-centered.

My remarks to yours:

1. That's rare. :)
2. Full point. LOL. You have special seating. Doesn't matter whether people sit there, the seats are designated for clergy. That's special seating for clergy.
3. Not often? That means it still happens from time to time. Full point.
4. Cool.
5. An adjutant is the fancy, modern term for an armorbearer. You know the guy that carries the pastor's Bible and notes, stands guard outside his office after church, wipes his sweat *gag*, pours his water, etc. :)
6. By special clergy attire, I was referring to the clerical vestments such as robes, collars, Bishop's hat, cross, etc.
7. Gotcha
8. Gotcha
9. Gotcha

 ;)
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Offline LaylaMonroe

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IRT Chapter 3, I'm having a hard time getting through it. I don't think I'm going to be ready before Thursday, but if I'm the only hold-out, then y'all go on ahead.
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Offline lordluvr

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I should be ready to discuss chapter 3 by Thursday.  I'm honestly having a better/easier time discussing the book than reading it.  LOL.

Offline phbrown

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IRT Chapter 3, I'm having a hard time getting through it. I don't think I'm going to be ready before Thursday, but if I'm the only hold-out, then y'all go on ahead.

Chapter 3 was kind of pointless to me, so i may not say much on thursday

Offline sjonathan02

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I see on some level we're not really feeling Chapter 3.  :-\ :D
Despite our communication technology, no invention is as effective as the sound of the human voice.
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