May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[LaylaMonroe]

I'm going to check the ones off that apply to my church.

1. The pastors' names on the board outside the church. Can't remember, but I think so.

2. Special seating for pastors, first lady, first family, visiting pastors, and/or clergy. Yes. They don't sit in the pulpit, but we have two chairs on the side for the pastor and FL.

3. Acknowledging the pastor & first family during the service. You know the usual "we thank God for our pastor... Oh come on, you can do better than that!" and everyone claps and stands, roaring for the wonderful pastor. A big, resounding yes.

4. Special parking spaces for pastors, first family. No.

5. Don't get me started on the whole adjutant thing (which I think is more common in pentecostal Black churches). Yep.

6. Special clergy attire. Yep.

7. Special clergy elements for communion (ex. in some churches, the pastor has a special goblet to drink out of for communion while everyone else drinks from the shot glasses... lol) Yep.

8. Pastor's name on everything, everywhere you look - on programs, letterhead, billboards, flyers... nowadays, I can't imagine NOT doing that. I can give you 20 reasons why you MUST do that... but at the same time, it's marketing MAN and not GOD. It's marketing a local church instead of JESUS. But it's the norm, so... Yep.

9. Calling him "Pastor" so-and-so... and everyone without a "special" calling is just Sister or Brother... Yep.

Okay, that's 9... 

And all of this stuff in and of itself isn't BAD, necessarily. But it does give the impression to non-Christians, unchurched people, and laity that there is a divide and that more respect or value should be assigned to clergy than to laity. And God forbid your title is "prophet" or "prophetess." Folks will wanna treat you like God or something. It's horrible. And quite uncomfortable.

[blyempowered]

1. The pastors' names on the board outside the church.

2. Special seating for pastors, first lady, first family, visiting pastors, and/or clergy.

3. Acknowledging the pastor & first family during the service. You know the usual "we thank God for our pastor... Oh come on, you can do better than that!" and everyone claps and stands, roaring for the wonderful pastor.

4. Special parking spaces for pastors, first family.

5. Don't get me started on the whole adjutant thing (which I think is more common in pentecostal Black churches).

6. Special clergy attire.

7. Special clergy elements for communion (ex. in some churches, the pastor has a special goblet to drink out of for communion while everyone else drinks from the shot glasses... lol)

8. Pastor's name on everything, everywhere you look - on programs, letterhead, billboards, flyers... nowadays, I can't imagine NOT doing that. I can give you 20 reasons why you MUST do that... but at the same time, it's marketing MAN and not GOD. It's marketing a local church instead of JESUS. But it's the norm, so...

9. Calling him "Pastor" so-and-so... and everyone without a "special" calling is just Sister or Brother...

Okay, that's 9... 

1. We did and probably will when we get a pastor. You're talking about the marquee thing...right? LOL!

2. Yep, in the pulpit.

3. Yes! Very big tradition in many black churches, not as big in our church as it use to be.

4. Yep! Special parking! We've had it for years!

5. Not as much as we use to but it use to be a BIG problem under our former former pastor.

6. Yep!

7. Nope! No special communion elements.

8. Now we had our pastor's name on the program and again on the marquee outside. I know of one church that had a picture of the pastor on the front cover of the bulletin....SMH!!!

9. Yeah, there's an expectation that the pastor should be called a certain title.

And let me add this one (not sure if you covered it already):

10. Pictures of the pastor/leading lady inside or outside the church. Honestly I kind of like pictures of the pastors inside the church (for tradition sake....LOL) but seriously I don't think I like it.

[phbrown]

1. Pastor(s) being the main speaker of the hour
2. Pastor (or senior Clergy) makes most if not all decisions
3. The ability of the clergy to make rules to apply to everyone
4. Requiring ministers to be ordained
5. Special requirements to be come ordained
6. Requirements that clergy have to attend certain events
7. Clergy leading prayers (in some churches it would be odd for someone in the middle of the audience to start the prayer and lead it for the group)
8. Clergy directing the order of worship (this can be saying put the bulitin this way or it can be done from the pulpit when the pastor makes a request)
9. Clergy receiving a stipend (lay members do not receive a stipend)
10. When saying the name of the church you attend you may follow up by saying where the Pastor is So and So.
11. Pastors or Clergy being given time to deliver the sermon which is always longer than someone's testimony during testimony services
12. Clergy giving long prayers during the service

I'm not saying that some of these things are valid or not, I'm just saying these are some of the things that separate the laity from the clergy. In short if there is something that only certain members can do and others can't do then a divide exists.

Something exists to keep people whom we deem "unqualified" from doing those things.

[phbrown]

Honestly I kind of like pictures of the pastors inside the church (for tradition sake....LOL) but seriously I don't think I like it.

Huh? you confused me on this one sir ...

Are you being honest or are you being serious?

[blyempowered]

1. Pastor(s) being the main speaker of the hour
2. Pastor (or senior Clergy) makes most if not all decisions
3. The ability of the clergy to make rules to apply to everyone
4. Requiring ministers to be ordained
5. Special requirements to be come ordained
6. Requirements that clergy have to attend certain events
7. Clergy leading prayers (in some churches it would be odd for someone in the middle of the audience to start the prayer and lead it for the group)
8. Clergy directing the order of worship (this can be saying put the bulitin this way or it can be done from the pulpit when the pastor makes a request)
9. Clergy receiving a stipend (lay members do not receive a stipend)
10. When saying the name of the church you attend you may follow up by saying where the Pastor is So and So.
11. Pastors or Clergy being given time to deliver the sermon which is always longer than someone's testimony during testimony services
12. Clergy giving long prayers during the service

I'm not saying that some of these things are valid or not, I'm just saying these are some of the things that separate the laity from the clergy. In short if there is something that only certain members can do and others can't do then a divide exists.

Something exists to keep people whom we deem "unqualified" from doing those things.

Interesting points bro!

I just gotta say this: I'm in chapter 4 now and I just gotta warn you: If you're a pulpit preacher or have been mulling the call of declaring God's Word from the pulpit you may not want to read chapter 4. We thought that the first 2 (we haven't started chapter 3 yet as far as discussion) were challenging our ideologies? In the words of DLawrence "You ain't seen nothing yet!"

[blyempowered]

Huh? you confused me on this one sir ...

Are you being honest or are you being serious?

Oh sorry....LOL!

For the sake of tradition and my church roots I like pictures of the pastors on the wall. But for the sake of ministry and representing Christ the best that I can I don't like it.

[LaylaMonroe]

YES, the pictures... another way of deifying leadership. SMH.

[phbrown]

oh didn't realize some of us where pointing out which applies to where we worship.

1. The pastors' names on the board outside the church. Yep

2. Special seating for pastors, first lady, first family, visiting pastors, and/or clergy.Yep

3. Acknowledging the pastor & first family during the service. You know the usual "we thank God for our pastor... Oh come on, you can do better than that!" and everyone claps and stands, roaring for the wonderful pastor.Yep

4. Special parking spaces for pastors, first family.Yep

5. Don't get me started on the whole adjutant thing (which I think is more common in pentecostal Black churches). I don't know what an adjutant is but it sounds like something that is adjacent to something else ...heads off to google ... oh an assistant? yep got that too

6. Special clergy attire.Yep

7. Special clergy elements for communion (ex. in some churches, the pastor has a special goblet to drink out of for communion while everyone else drinks from the shot glasses... lol)nope we all get the same thingy

8. Pastor's name on everything, everywhere you look - on programs, letterhead, billboards, flyers... nowadays, I can't imagine NOT doing that. I can give you 20 reasons why you MUST do that... but at the same time, it's marketing MAN and not GOD. It's marketing a local church instead of JESUS. But it's the norm, so... Yep

9. Calling him "Pastor" so-and-so... and everyone without a "special" calling is just Sister or Brother... Yep

Okay, that's 9... 

1. Pastor(s) being the main speaker of the hourYep
2. Pastor (or senior Clergy) makes most if not all decisionsYep
3. The ability of the clergy to make rules to apply to everyoneYep
4. Requiring ministers to be ordainedYep
5. Special requirements to be come ordainedYep
6. Requirements that clergy have to attend certain eventsYep
7. Clergy leading prayers (in some churches it would be odd for someone in the middle of the audience to start the prayer and lead it for the group)Yep
8. Clergy directing the order of worship (this can be saying put the bulitin this way or it can be done from the pulpit when the pastor makes a request)Yep
9. Clergy receiving a stipend (lay members do not receive a stipend)Yep
10. When saying the name of the church you attend you may follow up by saying where the Pastor is So and So.Yep
11. Pastors or Clergy being given time to deliver the sermon which is always longer than someone's testimony during testimony servicesYep
12. Clergy giving long prayers during the serviceYep

I'm not saying that some of these things are valid or not, I'm just saying these are some of the things that separate the laity from the clergy. In short if there is something that only certain members can do and others can't do then a divide exists.

Something exists to keep people whom we deem "unqualified" from doing those things.

[phbrown]

Oh there was another part of this chapter that I liked.

Where the author said next time you are in your church look at how things are placed.

At my church the podium for the preacher is front and center, and the cross and baptism pool is behind him. We have the theme for the year on his left and the church covenant on his right. The choir is also behind the pulpit. There is also a light just above his head and there is a special light above the cross further back. The communion table is in front of the pulpit

Mic for the preacher is the loudest mic. (don't get me started on that one that thing causes soo much feedback problems its ridiculous)

The pulpit is a large open space between the pulpit and the first row of pews, This is where devotion/praise and worship, invitation to discipleship, and easter plays and stuff like that happens.

wait a second I think I have a picture somewhere. But basically this arrangement says to me.  The communion is the most important, followed by the pastor, followed by the theme and church covenant, followed by the baptism of people.

[phbrown]

YES, the pictures... another way of deifying leadership. SMH.

Yeah, i remember when the first pastor of my church passed. Someone put up a photo of him in the cathedra chair (hehe I like that word even though we don't call it that) for about a month or so and draped some linens or something over it. *sigh* that rubbed quite a few folk the wrong way.  but it happened all the same...

[phbrown]

Interesting points bro!

I just gotta say this: I'm in chapter 4 now and I just gotta warn you: If you're a pulpit preacher or have been mulling the call of declaring God's Word from the pulpit you may not want to read chapter 4. We thought that the first 2 (we haven't started chapter 3 yet as far as discussion) were challenging our ideologies? In the words of DLawrence "You ain't seen nothing yet!"

You sho'nuff right!

[blyempowered]

Yeah, i remember when the first pastor of my church passed. Someone put up a photo of him in the cathedra chair (hehe I like that word even though we don't call it that) for about a month or so and draped some linens or something over it. *sigh* that rubbed quite a few folk the wrong way.  but it happened all the same...

SMH!!!

I don't know how to do the "architectural" design like you but here's how our church is setup. I'll do our current sanctuary and then I'll do our old one.

New Santuary

When you walk in we have a small hallway (vestibule or narthex) and then you go in the sanctuary, which fits about 250 max. We have the traditional Baptist red carpet....LOL! We have about 10 pews on each side. Our pulpit is shaped like a stage. Our first pulpit design was the traditional "walled" design that has the communion table with one chair on each side of the pulpit. Our choir stand is in the pulpit area along with the organ and piano. We have the cathedra and 2 other chairs. Basically, if you've ever been to a Missionary Baptist Church that's our basic design.

In our old sanctuary we had like 4 different seating areas (sanctuary still fit about 250). We had the UCC type pulpit in which it was only the preachers (pulpit was like a square) and the choir stand was on the left. We had the traditional pulpit design with the communion table and the seats. Also we had pictures of two of our former pastors (not sure if the pastor of our church in the 80s ever got a picture). And on top of that, we had a picture of the Lord's supper. Our old sanctuary was built in 1922 and we moved out in 1990 due to an electric storm that struck a power line.

To be honest, I'm in favor of us rebuilding now because our church philosophically is different. It's like we're a small church trying to do big church stuff. We have a lot of meetings but we only have 2 active classrooms, the fellowship hall and the sanctuary. Word on the street has it that our current sanctuary was more of an "emergency" building because of the age of the old church. It was built more for the time that it was in than now.

One more thing: at our new church (from 1990 till about 2003 or so) the pictures of the pastors would hang outside of the sanctuary in the vestibule. And get this: not only did we have pictures of pastors but we have pictures of 3 deacons....YES!!...LOL!!! Now we only have 1 picture of a pastor in the vestibule and the other pictures in the hallway where the bathrooms and pastor's office is.

[LaylaMonroe]

Yeah, i remember when the first pastor of my church passed. Someone put up a photo of him in the cathedra chair (hehe I like that word even though we don't call it that) for about a month or so and draped some linens or something over it. *sigh* that rubbed quite a few folk the wrong way.  but it happened all the same...

There's a church here where the pastor died and they draped his chair in black linen (which is common. Usually, they drape a black linen over the board thingy (marquee thing) and a black wreath on the door). Anyway, he died like 3 or 4 years ago and that chair is STILL draped... to this day. No one is allowed to touch it.

[blyempowered]

There's a church here where the pastor died and they draped his chair in black linen (which is common. Usually, they drape a black linen over the board thingy (marquee thing) and a black wreath on the door). Anyway, he died like 3 or 4 years ago and that chair is STILL draped... to this day. No one is allowed to touch it.

WHAT???....SMH!!!

[phbrown]

There's a church here where the pastor died and they draped his chair in black linen (which is common. Usually, they drape a black linen over the board thingy (marquee thing) and a black wreath on the door). Anyway, he died like 3 or 4 years ago and that chair is STILL draped... to this day. No one is allowed to touch it.

wow ... the things we put our faith in ...

[LaylaMonroe]

When are you guys going to be ready to get into Ch3?

I haven't finished it yet, but it seems that everyone else has except Jonathan and me. I know he's got less flexibility with his obligations than I do, so we should probably leave it to him?

[blyempowered]

When are you guys going to be ready to get into Ch3?

I haven't finished it yet, but it seems that everyone else has except Jonathan and me. I know he's got less flexibility with his obligations than I do, so we should probably leave it to him?

I'm ready whenever the majority says.

[phbrown]

When are you guys going to be ready to get into Ch3?

I haven't finished it yet, but it seems that everyone else has except Jonathan and me. I know he's got less flexibility with his obligations than I do, so we should probably leave it to him?

agreed him and MB (how far are you MB?) I may re read it tonight its been a while since I read that chapter

[LaylaMonroe]

agreed him and MB (how far are you MB?) I may re read it tonight its been a while since I read that chapter

Oh yes, I forgot MB is behind also.

I don't really wanna move on until everyone is ready or everyone consents. One thing I'm realizing about this book is that you really can't chime in on the subjects without having read the book, because it's a perspective-challenging book. It's like you're definitely gonna see it "this way" before you read it, but you may or may not see it that way after.

[sjonathan02]

I believe I'm torn on this issue.  I mean, I have no problem 'giving honor to whom honor is due'. If we can do that for presidents and kings, why not the pastor.  I have an idea of what my pastor does to prepare for Sunday and Wednesday, I'm not that diligent in my studying (just being real) so he can have it.

At the same time, I can understand the almost deification of some pastors @ some churches and it's a mess--a hot. mess.