May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[blyempowered]

Here are some of the things that I've seen/experienced with respect to those who chase the "cloud experience":

1. Most of what I've seen is more of an appeal to the emotions than anything else.  Now, don't get me wrong, the people are sincere.  But, their appeals to God and their expectations of God are more emotional than scriptural.  They equate things like whether or not the praise team is singing with intensity to "a move of God", or whether the congregation is clapping their hands loud enough or yelling praises loud enough to invoke His presence.  So, pastors will have their congregations clapping, yelling and screaming for minutes at a time until he "feels" the presence of the Lord.

Why do I have a problem with that?  Actually, this is one of the areas in which I agree with the author(s).  The author(s), starting in chapter one, mentioned one important thing: that when Christ came, the need for mortar temples was done away with, because our bodies became the temple of the Lord, which means He's ever present with us.  We don't need to invoke his presence.  Rather, we need to acknowledge it.  If we spent more time acknowledging His presence and being led by his Spirit (Romans 6-8), we'd spend less time chasing His presence and being out of His will.  If we spent less time preserving Old Testament and pagan rites and rituals and spent more time yielding to His will, we'd (as individuals and as a collective body) walk in the power that was granted to us.  We'd be doing the "greater works" that Christ told his disciples of.  We're so steeped in tradition and custom and ritual and rite that we fail to see, acknowledge, use and benefit from the greatest gift we've been given, God in us.

*Jaw drops*........WOW!!!

[lordluvr]

I honestly think people are naturally inclined to reject those things that challenge their core belief systems. Reading and digesting this book is hard for me because it really leaves me wondering where this leaves my ministry. Have I had it wrong all this time? Majored in minor things? Perpetuated false theories, man-made doctrines and hype? Most importantly, how do I now do what I'm called to do without incorporating all the additives and impurities?

I suspect that IF the authors have good points to make, musicians may wonder the same thing. Or reject it or dismiss it. *shrug*

Either way, this is challenging. And I'm thoroughly enjoying all parts of the discussion.

For me, while I'm not in total agreement with all concepts the author(s) promote, this book serves as somewhat of a wake up call.  It does challenge some things.  I like that.  We need that.  I welcome that.  But, simply because there are challenges issued, doesn't make every challenge valid or worthwhile.  I review the book with an open mind, but I'm also mindful that the writers are still human and aren't perfect and can be wrong occasionally, based on their take on the information they've gathered. 

I, too, am enjoying the convo.  I'd like to thank Layla for coming up with the idea in the first place as well as the willingness to share the reading experience with the collective.

[blyempowered]

For me, while I'm not in total agreement with all concepts the author(s) promote, this book serves as somewhat of a wake up call.  It does challenge some things.  I like that.  We need that.  I welcome that.  But, simply because there are challenges issued, doesn't make every challenge valid or worthwhile.  I review the book with an open mind, but I'm also mindful that the writers are still human and aren't perfect and can be wrong occasionally, based on their take on the information they've gathered. 

I, too, am enjoying the convo.  I'd like to thank Layla for coming up with the idea in the first place as well as the willingness to share the reading experience with the collective.

My sentiments as well!

[LaylaMonroe]

Here are some of the things that I've seen/experienced with respect to those who chase the "cloud experience":

1. Most of what I've seen is more of an appeal to the emotions than anything else.  Now, don't get me wrong, the people are sincere.  But, their appeals to God and their expectations of God are more emotional than scriptural.  They equate things like whether or not the praise team is singing with intensity to "a move of God", or whether the congregation is clapping their hands loud enough or yelling praises loud enough to invoke His presence.  So, pastors will have their congregations clapping, yelling and screaming for minutes at a time until he "feels" the presence of the Lord.

Why do I have a problem with that?  Actually, this is one of the areas in which I agree with the author(s).  The author(s), starting in chapter one, mentioned one important thing: that when Christ came, the need for mortar temples was done away with, because our bodies became the temple of the Lord, which means He's ever present with us.  We don't need to invoke his presence.  Rather, we need to acknowledge it.  If we spent more time acknowledging His presence and being led by his Spirit (Romans 6-8), we'd spend less time chasing His presence and being out of His will.  If we spent less time preserving Old Testament and pagan rites and rituals and spent more time yielding to His will, we'd (as individuals and as a collective body) walk in the power that was granted to us.  We'd be doing the "greater works" that Christ told his disciples of.  We're so steeped in tradition and custom and ritual and rite that we fail to see, acknowledge, use and benefit from the greatest gift we've been given, God in us.

Whoaaaaaa!!! You (and Nessa) have a way of saying exactly what I'm trying to say - but in a more palatable, relevant way. It makes so much more sense. Thanks!

[LaylaMonroe]

For me, while I'm not in total agreement with all concepts the author(s) promote, this book serves as somewhat of a wake up call.  It does challenge some things.  I like that.  We need that.  I welcome that.  But, simply because there are challenges issued, doesn't make every challenge valid or worthwhile.  I review the book with an open mind, but I'm also mindful that the writers are still human and aren't perfect and can be wrong occasionally, based on their take on the information they've gathered. 

I, too, am enjoying the convo.  I'd like to thank Layla for coming up with the idea in the first place as well as the willingness to share the reading experience with the collective.

I totally agree. That's why I emphasized "IF" the authors make good points... As I said in the beginning, we have to eat the meat and spit out the bones. There's some good stuff in here, and that's the part that challenges me. The unscriptural or otherwise questionable stuff gets spit out.

[lordluvr]

Whoaaaaaa!!! You (and Nessa) have a way of saying exactly what I'm trying to say - but in a more palatable, relevant way. It makes so much more sense. Thanks!

Don't sell yourself short.  You be (int) dropping some mad knowledge.  Sure, it takes several hours to read, but it's relevant, insightful and provokative 99% of the time.  Just messing with you on the "several hours" part. 

[sjonathan02]

I honestly think people are naturally inclined to reject those things that challenge their core belief systems. Reading and digesting this book is hard for me because it really leaves me wondering where this leaves my ministry. Have I had it wrong all this time? Majored in minor things? Perpetuated false theories, man-made doctrines and hype? Most importantly, how do I now do what I'm called to do without incorporating all the additives and impurities?
I suspect that IF the authors have good points to make, musicians may wonder the same thing. Or reject it or dismiss it. *shrug*

Either way, this is challenging. And I'm thoroughly enjoying all parts of the discussion.

Especially when working at the behest of the pastor.  How does one incorporate what one learns in this book without upsetting the status quo or traditional expectations? 

[LaylaMonroe]

^^^^ Another good point/question.

Personally, before I even came across this book, I had begun to share with my pastor some of the conflicts I was having. I'm going to recommend this book to him, though my expectation is low. If nothing else, I just hope it challenges him (and me and all of us) to just think about what we're doing. We do a lot of extra, unnecessary stuff.

[sjonathan02]

Don't sell yourself short.  You be (int) dropping some mad knowledge.  Sure, it takes several hours to read, but it's relevant, insightful and provokative 99% of the time.  Just messing with you on the "several hours" part. 

Was that on purpose as well?

[sjonathan02]

Here are some of the things that I've seen/experienced with respect to those who chase the "cloud experience":

1. Most of what I've seen is more of an appeal to the emotions than anything else.  Now, don't get me wrong, the people are sincere.  But, their appeals to God and their expectations of God are more emotional than scriptural.  They equate things like whether or not the praise team is singing with intensity to "a move of God", or whether the congregation is clapping their hands loud enough or yelling praises loud enough to invoke His presence.  So, pastors will have their congregations clapping, yelling and screaming for minutes at a time until he "feels" the presence of the Lord.

Why do I have a problem with that?  Actually, this is one of the areas in which I agree with the author(s).  The author(s), starting in chapter one, mentioned one important thing: that when Christ came, the need for mortar temples was done away with, because our bodies became the temple of the Lord, which means He's ever present with us.  We don't need to invoke his presence.  Rather, we need to acknowledge it.  If we spent more time acknowledging His presence and being led by his Spirit (Romans 6-8), we'd spend less time chasing His presence and being out of His will.  If we spent less time preserving Old Testament and pagan rites and rituals and spent more time yielding to His will, we'd (as individuals and as a collective body) walk in the power that was granted to us.  We'd be doing the "greater works" that Christ told his disciples of.  We're so steeped in tradition and custom and ritual and rite that we fail to see, acknowledge, use and benefit from the greatest gift we've been given, God in us.

So, we're not 'chasing after Him; no matter what we have to do'?

Dang, there's one song eliminated from our P&W list.

[LaylaMonroe]

Oh wait. Sorry, was that supposed to be funny?

But yeah, I love that song, but I HAVE had issues with the concept.

[phbrown]

Now, imagine him saying all of that in the voice of Chris Rock.  Hilarious!

ROFL!!!!

[phbrown]

Positive or negative?

 Idk. 

[phbrown]

Good points!!

Does the clergy/laity divide fit this?

according to the author no, but that comes later i think

[phbrown]

So when does something that is "unbiblical" become wrong?

when it contradicts the bible otherwise it is just cultural influences to me *shrug*

[phbrown]

Why? #justcurious

those elements allow a single person to be seen and heard better

[sjonathan02]

Oh wait. Sorry, was that supposed to be funny?

But yeah, I love that song, but I HAVE had issues with the concept.

My pastor asked the praise team, in my absence (I was sick that day or something), why are we chasing after Him.  They gave him acceptable responses, based on what I've shared with them, but as I think about it, I, too, have issues with the concept of the song (which explains why we've only sung it twice).


So now my question is, if we're not singing/playing to invoke the presence of God because He's already within us, are we singing to encourage one another as Paul tells us to do in Ephesians and Colossians?

What are we doing when we sing unto the Lord a new song? 

[phbrown]

I honestly think people are naturally inclined to reject those things that challenge their core belief systems. Reading and digesting this book is hard for me because it really leaves me wondering where this leaves me

I added the word me

but +1 This book is really hard for me to just accept and change .... I doubt I will change but it is causing me to seek God's advice on how to proceed.

[phbrown]

So, we're not 'chasing after Him; no matter what we have to do'?

Dang, there's one song eliminated from our P&W list.

ROFL!!!

[phbrown]

What are we doing when we sing unto the Lord a new song? 

Singing