May 2011 DISCUSSION: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna

[phbrown]

What I DO think is interesting though - and I always have found this interesting - is that modern day Christians DO INDEED pick and choose which parts of Levitical law and Mosaic law are considered Biblical mandates and which can be conveniently ignored. And THAT right there is something that every denomination and non-denomination does - except a few Hebrew Pentecostals, who observe all the OT laws and feasts.

Iasked a minister i know and he said thats were praying for wisdom comes in. cause for example one of the laws says to stone your bad kids


 Deuteronomy 21:18-21 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."

[LaylaMonroe]

I don't agree with "praying for wisdom" in an answer to deciding which BIBLICAL laws to uphold and which to denounce.

The way I see it, you either believe in keeping the law or you don't. And the Bible lets us know that failing to keep one part of the law is failing to keep the whole law. Now, if you believe in keeping the law, and there's a part that you can't keep exactly as written (because of REAL restrictions, such as modern law), then you could use wisdom to adapt that law to modern usage. So while the law won't allow you to stone your disobedient child, you CAN punish them in other, legal ways.

My biggest issue with "praying for wisdom" to determine what to follow and what to ignore is that it leaves too responsibility to a very fallible people. Furthermore, I think most of the time, when it comes to modern Christians, the majority of what we do is because we were taught to do/believe it and have proof-texted it into reason. Most of these Biblical laws are inconvenient and foreign, so we wouldn't keep them even if we were legally and physically able to.

But, that's not just restricted to OT, btw. The Lord has been nudging me to study what it means to be modest. I did a thread on that a while back, and came across it again the other day. I guess He was reminding me. LOL. But yeah, the Bible tells us explicitly that we are to be modest - including in our apparel. And I wouldn't even try to guess how many Black churches actually practice modesty in their apparel. I surely don't. But the Bible says we should. And we ignore it (and redefine the word "modest") for the sake of convenience and carnality.

[blyempowered]

Welp, so we discuss the last chapters this week. This has been a great discussion guys! So just a question of 2:

1. Is there ANYTHING that has changed as far as your perspective, opinion, conviction on something? Is there anything that has challenged your belief but maybe not totally changed? Is there something that was not changed at all after reading this?

2. Does the origin (or knowing....) of something affect how you view the worth/value of a particular church practice?

3. If you could summarize this book in a sentence or two, what you it be?

4. Are you planning on buying the "solutions" book "Reimagining Church?"

5. What did you most enjoy about the book? Least enjoy?

[LaylaMonroe]

Ummm.... we didn't discuss Ch10-11 yet... or 12, for that matter. LOL. Is everyone gonna be ready? I plan to finish by Thursday, but I haven't read them yet. I'm about halfway through 10.

[blyempowered]

I will try to be ready but saw something in glancing the next 3 chapters that irked me (clue: youth....).

Oh and I read the Communion and Baptism chapters. As far as Communion I knew that the Protestant way of doing Communion has Catholic origins. Also one of our candidates said that Communion was a separate ceremony instituted by Jesus...hmmmm. I do think its ridiculous that only certain people can conduct the Communion service.

As far as Baptism, the only time in my life that I remember our church baptizing outside of 1st Sunday was about 2 years ago. A guy from out of another state got saved and wanted to get baptized but it wasn't "Baptism Sunday." The pastor told the folk to fill the tub and we had the ministers sing a little while everyone was getting ready. I bet some folk were going crazy....LOL!

[phbrown]

Welp, so we discuss the last chapters this week. This has been a great discussion guys! So just a question of 2:

1. Is there ANYTHING that has changed as far as your perspective, opinion, conviction on something? Is there anything that has challenged your belief but maybe not totally changed? Is there something that was not changed at all after reading this?

no not really, the only thing that truly became apparent to me is that without love amongst Christians it doesn't matter. I don't care what the preacher wears, I don't care about the order of service, I don't care about where we decide to meet at, I don't care about the tithing or which laws to follow, I don't care about how long the sermon is. To me the early church exemplified love for one another. Everything else is moot because we lack love for one another.

2. Does the origin (or knowing....) of something affect how you view the worth/value of a particular church practice?

no, almost turns into a useless fact... nice to talk about but thats it

3. If you could summarize this book in a sentence or two, what you it be?

Organic churches are characterized by Spirit-led, open-participatory meetings and nonhierarchical leadership.

page XIX

4. Are you planning on buying the "solutions" book "Reimagining Church?"

No

5. What did you most enjoy about the book? Least enjoy?

Talking to each of you was by far the best part! The part I least enjoyed was when I wrote super long posts answering something. And then even I wouldn't want to go back and read it cause it was so long.

[blyempowered]

#1 is GOLD! Without love none of it matters!

[lordluvr]

Welp, so we discuss the last chapters this week. This has been a great discussion guys! So just a question of 2:

1. Is there ANYTHING that has changed as far as your perspective, opinion, conviction on something? Is there anything that has challenged your belief but maybe not totally changed? Is there something that was not changed at all after reading this?

2. Does the origin (or knowing....) of something affect how you view the worth/value of a particular church practice?

3. If you could summarize this book in a sentence or two, what you it be?

4. Are you planning on buying the "solutions" book "Reimagining Church?"

5. What did you most enjoy about the book? Least enjoy?

1. My view of a lot of church traditions has changed somewhat.  I mean, I've never been a proponent of doing things just because tradition dictates it.  But, it was somewhat eye-opening to see some of the origins of these traditions/practices.  b) There was nothing written that changed my belief.

2. Somewhat.  Yesterday, we had baptism.  After the candidates were baptized, a brother motioned to me and said "Play, 'Take me to the water...". I cringed.  I was like, "Why?".  They were already baptized.  Why play a song that says "take me to the water"?  They sing that song neary EVERY time someone is baptized.  Is it even necessary to sing?  I didn't play it, but they sang anyway.  lol

3.  I come away feeling like this book is nothing more than a passive plea for the adoption of the organic church mindset/practice.

4. No.

5. I most enjoyed the conversations that took place.  I least enjoyed....I don't quite know how to put it...I guess I can say the style of the authors.  At some point, it became predictable and unconvincing, and as I stated earlier, had an overall feel of being a passive pitch in favor of the organic church "movement".

[blyempowered]

1. My view of a lot of church traditions has changed somewhat.  I mean, I've never been a proponent of doing things just because tradition dictates it.  But, it was somewhat eye-opening to see some of the origins of these traditions/practices.  b) There was nothing written that changed my belief.

2. Somewhat.  Yesterday, we had baptism.  After the candidates were baptized, a brother motioned to me and said "Play, 'Take me to the water...". I cringed.  I was like, "Why?".  They were already baptized.  Why play a song that says "take me to the water"?  They sing that song neary EVERY time someone is baptized.  Is it even necessary to sing?  I didn't play it, but they sang anyway.  lol

3.  I come away feeling like this book is nothing more than a passive plea for the adoption of the organic church mindset/practice.

4. No.

5. I most enjoyed the conversations that took place.  I least enjoyed....I don't quite know how to put it...I guess I can say the style of the authors.  At some point, it became predictable and unconvincing, and as I stated earlier, had an overall feel of being a passive pitch in favor of the organic church "movement".

Good stuff doc!!

[phbrown]

okay i'm going to the car and I'm going to read this book tonight!!! I'm supposed to be working on  my car but I think I will just ride my bicycle to work tomorrow

[chevonee]

Ummm.... we didn't discuss Ch10-11 yet... or 12, for that matter. LOL. Is everyone gonna be ready? I plan to finish by Thursday, but I haven't read them yet. I'm about halfway through 10.

I'm still catching up but I'll definitely be ready for the upcoming discussion!!


OAN if it's possible, could you tell me in advance what we'll be studying next...the next book?
I don't want to be late like I was this time.

[phbrown]

I'm still catching up but I'll definitely be ready for the upcoming discussion!!


OAN if it's possible, could you tell me in advance what we'll be studying next...the next book?
I don't want to be late like I was this time.

I don't know what the next book will be there were quite a few recommendations in the other thread but none have had anyone follow up saying "Okay, I want to read this book with you"

If my public library has a book you want to Read Vonne, I will read it with you

[blyempowered]

Looks like we never finished our discussion. So I want to put my final thoughts out on this book, including the last 3 chapters:

1. As it relates to seminary/Christian college education, I don't have a problem with it as long as it is not hailed as being elite over those who may not choose to go to seminary. I think seminary is good as far as educating pastors and lay people but I do not think it should be seen as the norm. Just to add, I do think we need more modeling of our faith versus impartation of knowledge but I'm favor of both (with us still needing more modeling than knowledge).

2. The youth pastor part bothered me. I understood his point (and he made a very good point) but I see the need and maybe youth pastors don't have to function so much in the preaching capacity but I still see them as needed.

3. I just think at the end of the day it will be critically challenging to bring certain changes (needed and preference) because many of us were born and raised in a lot of these traditions and for some of us it will be hard to change our mindset on these things. Plus, I believe that many people will still argue that at the end of the day as long as souls are being saved and lives are being changed, issues like order of worship, clothes, music, church buildings, steeples, etc., are small issues. At the end of the day I think personal preference wins most of the arguments.

[phbrown]

finally started reading about proof texting

However I didn't know the new testament was arranged in order of length. (not that it mattered to me just an interesting thought)

I also like the point the author made about how people (even I did this) quote scriptures out of context.

[phbrown]

Looks like we never finished our discussion. So I want to put my final thoughts out on this book, including the last 3 chapters:

1. As it relates to seminary/Christian college education, I don't have a problem with it as long as it is not hailed as being elite over those who may not choose to go to seminary. I think seminary is good as far as educating pastors and lay people but I do not think it should be seen as the norm. Just to add, I do think we need more modeling of our faith versus impartation of knowledge but I'm favor of both (with us still needing more modeling than knowledge).

2. The youth pastor part bothered me. I understood his point (and he made a very good point) but I see the need and maybe youth pastors don't have to function so much in the preaching capacity but I still see them as needed.

I agree