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simeon34

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What is numbers
« on: March 05, 2011, 11:40:54 PM »
well i co-played an organ at a revival last night and the minister started a song i did not know and the other players said that is was asimple song so i ask the boy what was the chords he ask was i formilar with number and i said not reaily and he said you go from 1(cb) to 4(ab) and walk down and i was like what ???? some on inform me please :-[

Offline B3Organist_007

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2011, 08:10:42 AM »
The number system is used to correspond to a note in a particular scale (usually major). That note, in turn, corresponds to a particular chord. For example in the key of C:

C - 1 - major chord
D - 2 - minor chord
E - 3 - minor chord
F - 4 - major chord
G - 5 - major chord
A - 6 - minor chord
B - 7 - half diminish chord(I never really understood this one)

Short Description of the Number System for Piano and Organ


These chords are not carved in stone. You can switch them up (i.e. 6 can be major if you want). This is just the most common form. With these chords, you make progressions, which make up songs. Knowing the number system helped me a great deal. I'm pretty sure there are some in depth discussions around here about the number systems. If you are looking for a good DVD, Showmethat.com has a DVD call "Chords and Runs" by PJ morgan. He does a really good job breaking down the number system.

Offline T-Block

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2011, 08:48:34 AM »
For more information about the number system, visit the Gospel Hangout forum and look for a post at the top titled "Understanding The Number System" as well as post titled "Helpful Threads" which leads you to tons of posts dealing with music theory.

B - 7 - half diminish chord(I never really understood this one)

Well, for one thing it's not half-diminished, it's just plain diminished. To see it:

1-3-5 major chord: B-D#-F# = B major
1-b3-5 minor chord: B-D-F# = B minor
1-b3-b5 diminished chord: B-D-F = B diminished

When 7 is used in a progression, the chord is usually gonna be half-diminished after you add in the m7th of the chord, wich in this case would be an A. However, I look at it as combining the 7th scale degree with a 2 chord. To see this:

B-D-F + A (m7th of B) = B-D-F-A, B half-diminished

or

B + D-F-A (2 chord in the key of C) = B-D-F-A, B half-diminished

For anyone wondering, the reason why its half-diminished is because the 7th is minor. If u flat the 7th again, the chord becomes fully diminished.

1-b3-b5-b7 half-dim: B-D-F-A = B half-dim

1-b3-b5-bb5 fully dim or dim7: B-D-F-Ab = B fully dim or Bdim7


I know yall didn't ask for all that, but I just had to keep going, lol. Hopefully it makes more sense to ya know B3!
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline B3Organist_007

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2011, 07:42:30 PM »
For more information about the number system, visit the Gospel Hangout forum and look for a post at the top titled "Understanding The Number System" as well as post titled "Helpful Threads" which leads you to tons of posts dealing with music theory.

Well, for one thing it's not half-diminished, it's just plain diminished. To see it:

1-3-5 major chord: B-D#-F# = B major
1-b3-5 minor chord: B-D-F# = B minor
1-b3-b5 diminished chord: B-D-F = B diminished

When 7 is used in a progression, the chord is usually gonna be half-diminished after you add in the m7th of the chord, wich in this case would be an A. However, I look at it as combining the 7th scale degree with a 2 chord. To see this:

B-D-F + A (m7th of B) = B-D-F-A, B half-diminished

or

B + D-F-A (2 chord in the key of C) = B-D-F-A, B half-diminished

For anyone wondering, the reason why its half-diminished is because the 7th is minor. If u flat the 7th again, the chord becomes fully diminished.

1-b3-b5-b7 half-dim: B-D-F-A = B half-dim

1-b3-b5-bb5 fully dim or dim7: B-D-F-Ab = B fully dim or Bdim7


I know yall didn't ask for all that, but I just had to keep going, lol. Hopefully it makes more sense to ya know B3!


Thanks  T-Block!!!!!

simeon34

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2011, 09:20:22 PM »
thanks you are such a blessing

Offline under13

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2011, 02:21:43 PM »
Where is the GW? that title...smh.

Offline SoundofJoy

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 08:16:57 PM »
I see the basic need for the number system if you're following a jazz standard however, for these comtemporary gospel songs this system seem difficult to apply in my opinion. I agree with the opening comments that you must* learn the basic scales in every key. And then learn the harmonic minor scale in every key. Every chord I play can be broken down to it's basic scale. For example if I'm playing "Total Praise" in C lets say to make it easier to view, how would the number system apply to this song?
1 Lord
6 I
5/7 will
1 lift
4 mine
1 eyes
4 to
1 the hi...
2 ..lls
So much of the movement of this particuliar song would be lost if you relied on the numbers to teach you this song. My approach has always been from an instrumentalist point of view(former French Horn player) where I learn the melody line first, then the harmony line, later add the bass line. e.g.

lyric-.................Lord......I..... will....... lift...... mine...... eyes..... to..... the... hil.........ls
melody..............C.........C.......D ..........E........F.............G..... ......A........G.......G..........F
1st harmony......G.........A.......B....... ...C........C............E...........F. ........E.......E..........D
2nd harmony.....E.........E.......G........ ..G........A............C...........C.. ......C.......A..........A
bass..................C.........A...... ..B.........C........D............E.... .......F.........E......Db..........D

Every note in my example with the exception of the off bass note can be found in the C major scale. I've yet to see how the number system can be applied in realtime to learning a song such as this. Can anyone more knowledgeable in the number system post an example using this song so that I may understand it better? Really, I'm not knocking the system I just haven't been able to see it applied to songs other than testimony songs.

Sam
I love music, any kind of music.

Offline T-Block

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2011, 10:00:42 PM »
O.K., I'll try to tackle this in a way that makes sense:

1 Lord
6 I
5 will
1 lift
2 mine
3 eyes
4 to
3 the
#1 hi-
2 ills,

Key C

C /
A /
G /
C /
D /
E /
F /
E /
C# /
D /

Now, because I've heard the song before, I know what chords are used on each bass note. I also know the melody of the song. So, I fill in the chords using inversions that keep the melody notes on top:

C / E-G-C
A / E-A-C
G / F-G-B-D
C / E-G-C
D / B-D-F
E / C-E-G
F / C-F-A
E / C-E-G
C# / A#-C#-E-G
D / A-D-F

For me, it's about having a good ear for the music. I know a major chord when I hear it. I know a dom7 #5/#9 chord when I hear it, etc. That's because I've practiced them over and over and over again. The bass notes for me are all about the structure of the song. If you break down enough contemporary (or any other genre) songs, u will start to see the same chords being played for certain bass notes. So, over my years of playing, I made a list of all of those chords. For example, if I see a 2, chances are it's gonna be one of about 6 chords: major, minor, minor 7th, half-dim7, maj9, dom9. Example of chord options for 2 in the key of C:

D / D-F#-A *Dmaj or just plain D
D / D-F-A *Dmin or Dm or d
D / D-F-A-C *Dmin7 or Dm7
D / D-F-Ab-C *D half-dim7 or Dm7(b5)
D / F-A-C-E *Dmaj9 or DM9
D / F#-A-C-E  *Ddom9 or D9

Which one do you use? Depends on where the music is going. If it goes to 3 or 4, I would go with the Dmin, Dmin7, or Dmaj7. If it goes to 5, I would use the Dmaj, Dm7(b5), or D9. Knowing all of these chord options eliminates me having to write out all the harmony notes. I just pick a chord and keep it moving.

My whole fascination with the number system came from my theory classes in school. One of the first lessons I learned about was the figured bass. You outline the bass notes, then build chords on top of it. We also learned about the musical zip code, 3-6-2-5-1. This is the organization of chords that have the strongest flow. 1 is ur home and the idea of a song or progression is to build ur chords so they end up back home. Home is usually where the ear is happiest. After we got good with that, then we learned about melody and how to build chords underneath the melody. The melody process was longer and more complicated in my opinion.

Those numbers that aren't in the scale, like the C# in the above song, can be traced back to a number in the scale. In this case, it traces back to 6. How do I know that? Because the next number is a 2. If u look at the musical zip code (3-6-2-5-1), 6 leads to 2. So, in actuality, it's an inverted 6. In classical theory, we would call those chords V of Vs, or secondary dominant chords.

I think I'll stop right there and let that marinate. The number system is basically theory with your ears coming along for the ride to make sure it sound good. If you've never taken theory or learned about it, the number system won't do you any good.

You see SOJ, the same way you've learned your harmony method, I've done what with the number system. So, trying to learn a new method seems like a waste of time cuz you're more or less stuck with the method that works for you. Your method works just as well as the number system. In order to use either one, u gotta 1st believe in the system. That's where testimonials and demonstrations help. Then u gotta stick with it long enough to have it work for you.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline T-Block

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2011, 10:10:27 PM »
One more thing to add:

IMO, the number system should be applied to learning the music (particularly piano/keyboard & organ), not the choir parts. Since many of use here on LGM are musicians, it's great to have a method that helps speed up learning.

Many times the choir parts and music don't match. Especially in this contemporary age of music, the choir can be singing one thing while the music is doing something completely different, yet it all blends together. The music is built around the choir parts to help enhance them. So, if u were teaching a choir, the harmony method is the way to go. If you just wanna learn the chords to the song, I believe that the number system would be more beneficial.

I use a combination of both, but just call it the number system to keep it simple.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline SoundofJoy

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2011, 10:10:47 AM »
I missed a lot not taking formal music courses. I didn't know they teach the number system in music theory class. When I retire from full time work I believe I should enroll in a local college and take music theory 101 to see what I missed. Thank you for explaining the approach to the number system. One must know all the chords in every key in order to apply them properly to the song.
I love music, any kind of music.

Offline guimmy

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2011, 01:18:00 PM »
MIster Tolbert did you get my message of this morning? i guess you did. however, i went to you tube and viewed your video, you are really a professional. i still need your help though. l i look forward to hearing from you very soon. thanks in advance and may the lord bless you

Offline T-Block

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 11:33:10 AM »
I missed a lot not taking formal music courses. I didn't know they teach the number system in music theory class. When I retire from full time work I believe I should enroll in a local college and take music theory 101 to see what I missed. Thank you for explaining the approach to the number system. One must know all the chords in every key in order to apply them properly to the song.

Yeah, I would recommend attending a class even just to see what it's all about. I admire your work though SOJ. You're a beast in your own right. ;)
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline waydrummer

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Re: What is numbers
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2011, 04:01:38 AM »
I think the info by every one is great, but some ppl dont pick up or understand fully about learning chords to songs. I know I still have trouble with songs, so I use a combo of everything  the number system (mainly for the bass line), melody lines and a whole bunch of listening!!!!! > ;D
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