The people are a reflection of their leader...

[JustBecause]

If the leader isnt right, the people aint gonna be right... If the leader caint see what is in front of him/her... How do we change the people...

[csedwards2]

there are exceptions to that rule

[T-Block]

The people are supposed to be a reflection of the leader. Most of the time, it's true.

[JustBecause]

The people are supposed to be a reflection of the leader. Most of the time, it's true.

True indeed... However... The leader isnt right... The leader shows signs of messiness (if that's a word...) so the people are messy...

My question... Because I am working with these people and when the issues are brought to the leaders attention he/she act as if there isnt a problem...

For instance... prior to a meeting with said leader... I brought up the issue to said leader with no other person being present... I was told not to make assumptions... I stated to said leader that I dont make assumptions... I speak on what I see and what I see is blantant (sp?)... And no sooner had I said that once the meeting had started, the very same issue I brought to the leader's attention was clearly what happened to cause confusion amongst the people... Said leader said nor did anything... I brought it to said leader's attention that was what we had just spoke about prior to the meeting starting and said leader did and said nothing...

so how do you go about changing the people if the leader wont change?

[under13]

True indeed... However... The leader isnt right... The leader shows signs of messiness (if that's a word...) so the people are messy...

My question... Because I am working with these people and when the issues are brought to the leaders attention he/she act as if there isnt a problem...

For instance... prior to a meeting with said leader... I brought up the issue to said leader with no other person being present... I was told not to make assumptions... I stated to said leader that I dont make assumptions... I speak on what I see and what I see is blantant (sp?)... And no sooner had I said that once the meeting had started, the very same issue I brought to the leader's attention was clearly what happened to cause confusion amongst the people... Said leader said nor did anything... I brought it to said leader's attention that was what we had just spoke about prior to the meeting starting and said leader did and said nothing...

so how do you go about changing the people if the leader wont change?

you said said like a million time in that post

[LaylaMonroe]

Disclaimer: this is just my opinion.  If you disagree, you can just ignore it, and you haven't lost anything. 

I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to try to get leaders to change.  For one, I think most of us (at least I know it's true of myself) have too much work to do on ourselves to be worrying about the areas where other people need to change.

Secondly, I think it's the pastor's job - not leaders or lay members - to provide guidance, instruction, and development to other leaders.  it's also his job to determine who's "right" and who's not.  Things aren't always as they seem, and no matter what the situation, there's ALWAYS a possibility that what we think is obvious really isn't as we see it.

Thirdly, I've been in quite a few positions where I've had to work with leaders (and even pastors) who were just dead wrong, no matter how you slice it.  I didn't handle those situations the right way, most of the time.  I've learned, though, that the only right thing to do (at least IMO) is to pray about it.

Lastly, it sounds like you had an ought with a sister/brother.  You did what the Bible said to do: you took it to him/her alone.  If it's a personal ought, and that didn't work, you know what the next steps are.  If it's a ministry-related ought, and this person is your leader or the leader of another ministry, I would strongly suggest just taking it to the Lord in prayer.  I've learned from a previous church experience that prayer fixes things that me and my mouth just can't. 

[JustBecause]

I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to try to get leaders to change.  For one, I think most of us (at least I know it's true of myself) have too much work to do on ourselves to be worrying about the areas where other people need to change.

I agree with everything you said... I wnt to comment on this part...

My concern... is the people who need work will be lead astray because of the wrong doing of the leader... They will feel since my leader is doing it then I can do it too...

My major upset is you know something is going on and you do nothing about it... As a leader, when you see something is wrong and you are in a position to change it, you have the responsibility to change it...

I just find it baffling that a leader "In the Church" will allow things that are contrary to God's word to go on...

I guess that goes on in a lot of churches... Still doesnt make it right...

[joshuag]

If the leader isnt right, the people aint gonna be right... If the leader caint see what is in front of him/her... How do we change the people...

it is harder to see yourself that to see others misstake.... being prayerful, kind, and understand that we are not perfect but striving to be. As many misstake each of us have made over the years and no matter what anyone elses has said to us until God show us ourselves we could not see it regardless how big it may seem to others.......

[B3Wannabe]

I'm in an uncomfortable position too, but not "uncomfortable" bad. It's more of an intriguing situation. I know that God led us to the church we're at, but it's different than other churches we've been. They're not as strict with some thing, so things that would've gotten some of our past leaders up in arms, doesn't happen here. The ministry here has a lot of ex-prostitutes, crack addicts, terminal patients, and such. Like I said, it's weird. When I feel like putting on my heathen-detector glasses, God immediately tells me things along the lines of LaRue's second point.

We have to be careful when a leader has short-comings. Sometimes I'll drop an anonymous letter in the church mailbox, as a person that "visited the church recently", other times I'll go and speak to them directly, but which ever route I take, I always watch them and keep my ears open to God, just in case I'm wrong and there is a reason why things are that way.