2-5-1

[ssbrew7]

How can you hear a 2-5-1 Progression in a song?.....And when does it usually occur?...How about in James hall's For your name is to be praised song?

[berbie]

Simply choose two or three 2-5-1s and play them over and over for a few days.  You will start to recognize them in songs.  For instance:
Bb/Ab-Db-E     Eb/G-B-Db-Gb    Ab/Gb-B-C-Eb   2-5-1, Ab min.     

Or listen to songs like,"never would have made it"

D-A-C/E-Gb-C       G/F-A-Bb-D    C-G-C/D-G-C   2-5-1, C  Play that 2-5-1
and listen for it in the first part of the song.  (For His Glory's chords)

A 7-3-6 sounds like a 2-5-1.  In the same song, play and listen for this 7-3-6

B/A-D-F      E-B-E/Ab-B-E    A/E-A-C  Actually, it is a 2-5-1 in the key of A.

A commom 2-5-1 in Bb:
C/Bb-Eb-G      F/A-Eb-G    Bb/A-C-D-F or  C/Bb-Eb-Gb   F/A-Db-Eb-Ab  Bb/Ab-C-Db-F  (minor)


If you  do that over and over a few times, you will start to hear the 2-5-1s in songs from CDs.

Sombody correct me if I am wrong.  I can only say that it worked for me.

berbie

[csedwards2]

Simply choose two or three 2-5-1s and play them over and over for a few days.  You will start to recognize them in songs.  For instance:
Bb/Ab-Db-E     Eb/G-B-Db-Gb    Ab/Gb-B-C-Eb   2-5-1, Ab min.     

Or listen to songs like,"never would have made it"

D-A-C/E-Gb-C       G/F-A-Bb-D    C-G-C/D-G-C   2-5-1, C  Play that 2-5-1
and listen for it in the first part of the song.  (For His Glory's chords)

A 7-3-6 sounds like a 2-5-1.  In the same song, play and listen for this 7-3-6

B/A-D-F      E-B-E/Ab-B-E    A/E-A-C  Actually, it is a 2-5-1 in the key of A.

A commom 2-5-1 in Bb:
C/Bb-Eb-G      F/A-Eb-G    Bb/A-C-D-F or  C/Bb-Eb-Gb   F/A-Db-Eb-Ab  Bb/Ab-C-Db-F  (minor)


If you  do that over and over a few times, you will start to hear the 2-5-1s in songs from CDs.

Sombody correct me if I am wrong.  I can only say that it worked for me.

berbie

Im not playing it right now, but one thing Id say is its all related to fourths or the circle of fourths. Whatever you wanna call it. If you can hear a 5, then you can hear a 2-5, and if you can hear a 5, you can hear a 1. They under normal circumstances follow each other in easier songs.

I used to play the circle of fourths using 2-5s using a specific voicing I heard all the time. Not because I was practicing 2-5s, but just cause it sounded cool. And sounded lke a knew a lil something.

Starts like this

C/BbDEbG
F/ADEbG
Bb/AbCDbF
Eb/GCDbF

and so on.......

The theory behind it.
I got these voicings from Mr Magic and a couple other songs. I heard it in Perfect Praise too.

so the first chord is a Cminor9, so essentially its a 2 with the added flat seven, and ninth degree. Feel the position your fingers are in. Notice the spacing of your fingers in relation to each other and interval relations.

- The chord spelling is bass in your left (the actual 2), and in your right, youre playing the
flatted 7th, 9th, minor 3rd, and 5th.
   Bb               D         Eb              G
-when it resolves to the 5, only the bass changes and your first note in your right hand.

So your bass is in the left (the 5), and in your right, you're playing
the 3rd,  the 13th, the 7th, and the 9th
A                D           Eb                   G to spell an F13

Notice how that first finger just slides down a half step, to achieve the 3rd degree of F. To go even deeper, the dominant 7 of a 2 usually resolves to the 3rd of the 5 in voicings. It works in piano playing, bass playing, horn arrangements, just about anything. Thats how they work.  Feel the spacing, take notice that nothing changed in your other fingers.

So its the minor9- dom13 variation of the lowly (2-5)

Notice when you continue, youre going to Bbminor9. One whole step down from where you started or a fourth from the F, making it sound like a 1.

The last thing I'll say about your example is that a 736 is simply a minor 2-5-1. ONce you learn the difference between the sound, it'll be easy to pick them out, all over the place. Start with the major one, its more popular and will give you a better understanding of how to apply the minor one.

[T-Block]

How can you hear a 2-5-1 Progression in a song?.....And when does it usually occur?...How about in James hall's For your name is to be praised song?

The way u can hear a 2-5-1 or any other progression in a song comes first from practicing those progressions.  As u practice, concentrate on how each one sounds.  If you've practiced enough, u will notice that each type of progression has it's own unique sound when compared to the key.

Most of them are arranged in 4ths, but they won't all sound the same.  Sometimes when I'm practicing, I close my eyes while playing.  This brings ur ear more into the focus since u can't see what's being played.

I used to play the circle of fourths using 2-5s using a specific voicing I heard all the time. Not because I was practicing 2-5s, but just cause it sounded cool. And sounded lke a knew a lil something.

Starts like this

C/BbDEbG
F/ADEbG
Bb/AbCDbF
Eb/GCDbF

Actually, those would be 6-2's man, LOL.

[csedwards2]

stop playing before somebody believes you, and says " I was over in the piano room, and T Block was demonstrating these 6-2 progressions. Wow 6-2s! I mean I've heard of 2-5s, but this is way cooler.  Its got to be T Block said it."

[Fenix]

Actually, those would be 6-2's man, LOL.

Actually they are 2-5s. The progression is starting off in Bb major, hence the C-f. Then it goes on to Ab major, hence the Bb-Eb...and so on.

[T-Block]

stop playing before somebody believes you, and says " I was over in the piano room, and T Block was demonstrating these 6-2 progressions. Wow 6-2s! I mean I've heard of 2-5s, but this is way cooler.  Its got to be T Block said it."

Even though I got the LOL, I'm completely serious. 2-5's don't move that way with the chords u using.  The bass notes do, but the chords suggest something else, unless u in a minor key.

Actually they are 2-5s. The progression is starting off in Bb major, hence the C-f. Then it goes on to Ab major, hence the Bb-Eb...and so on.

Well, they sound like 6-2's to me.  If u listen to the way the chords sound, u would agree wit me.  It starts off in Eb, then goes to Db, then Cb/B, etc.  That is a very well-known and widely used progression in gospel music, so please trust ya boi. 

[Fenix]

Even though I got the LOL, I'm completely serious. 2-5's don't move that way with the chords u using.  The bass notes do, but the chords suggest something else, unless u in a minor key.

Well, they sound like 6-2's to me.  If u listen to the way the chords sound, u would agree wit me.  It starts off in Eb, then goes to Db, then Cb/B, etc.  That is a very well-known and widely used progression in gospel music, so please trust ya boi. 

Can you explain it cuz i am getting very confused here. The chords look and sound like 2-5s to me...very much so.

[musallio]

^^^
Before T or any1 answers your question...may I ask Fenix--Are you able to distinguish a 7-3-6 from a 2-5-1 (I ask because a 2-5-1, say in the key of C [D-G-C], uses the same bass notes as a 7-3-6, ie, in the key of Eb, the minor 3rd of C]

however, what determines whether it's being used as a 2-5-1 or a 7-3-6 would be the accompanying chords in the RH..

Here is my homework for you fenbox:

Plz go to the 7-3-6-2-5-1-4 exercises that T provided here...

play the 7-3-6 repeatedly several times...now play a 2-5-1 several times...

Now can you hear what T is talking about.

Just in case you are not in mood to find those progressions, let me give you mine:

in Gb (I know you loooove this key..2nd behing Db ):

a 7-3-6 in Gb

[7] F/Eb-Gb-Ab-Cb
[3] Bb/D-Gb-Ab-Db
[6] Eb/Eb-Gb-Bb-^Db-Eb  [^= TRILL]

Now, can we honestly say this is a 2-5-1 in Eb? I say no..
This progression has something to it--it wants to resolve..potentially to the 2. a 1 chord doesn't want to resolve, we just make it resolve to a 4 or something else.

Now here is a 2-5-1, first, in Eb, then in Gb

In Eb

[2] F/Eb-G-Ab-Bb-D
[5] Bb/(F)-Ab-C-D-F
[1] Eb/ G-Bb-D-G

Note the bass notes are similar to the 7-3-6 in Gb, but RH chords determine how we define the progression.

Now a 2-5-1 in Gb might look thus:

[2] Ab/Gb-Bb-Db-F
[5] Db/ Cb-Eb-F-Ab
[1] Gb/ Bb-Db-Gb

[T-Block]

Can you explain it cuz i am getting very confused here. The chords look and sound like 2-5s to me...very much so.

Actually, they could pass for 5-1's as well, but not really 2-5's unless u in a minor key.  It could be a 2-5 in Bb minor, but not Bb major.  I probably should have asked cs if he was in Bb major or Bb minor b4 jumping to conclusions.

Like musalio said, the accompanying chords suggest something other than a 2-5.  The bass note is only half the equation, the accompanying RH chord completes the progression.  If u were just going by that it could be 7-3's, 3-6's, 6-2's, 2-5's, 5-1's, or 1-4's.

[Fenix]

OK guys this is making no sense to me.

To me this is a series of 2-5s, assuming he is starting in Bb major;

Starts like this

C/BbDEbG- C minor 9
F/ADEbG- F13
This looks like a 2-5 in Bb to me.

Bb/AbCDbF- Bbmin9
Eb/GCDbF- Eb13
This looks like a 2-5 in Ab major to me

So where are you guys getting that this is a 1-5 or 7-3-6 or whatever?

 

[chevonee]

I'm not quite sure if I understand where this convo is going either Fenix, but this is what I use to help me practice different progressions such as 2-5-1 in every key. Like T-block and the others have said the more you practice, the more you'll recognize it.

*These progressions are not modulating...its just the way I practice them*

Key of C
D / A-D-F (2)
G / B-D-G (5)
C / C-E-G (1)

Key of F
G / D-G-Bb (2)
C / E-G-C (5)
F / F-A-C (1)

Key of Bb
C / G-C-Eb (2)
F / A-C-F (5)
Bb / Bb-D-F (1)

Key of Eb
F / C-F-Ab (2)
Bb / D-F-Bb (5)
Eb / Eb-G-Bb (1)

Key of Ab
Bb / F-Bb-Db (2)
Eb / G-Bb-Eb (5)
Ab / Ab-C-Eb (1)

Key of Db
Eb / Bb-Eb-Gb (2)
Ab / C-Eb-Ab (5)
Db / Db-F-Ab (1)

Key of Gb
Ab / Eb-Ab-B (2)
Db / F-Ab-Db (5)
Gb / Gb-Bb-Db (1)

Key of B
C# / G#-C#-E (2)
F# / A#-C#-F# (5)
B / B-D#-F# (1)

Key of E
F# / C#-F#-A (2)
B / D#-F#-B (5)
E / E-G#-B (1)

Key of A
B / F#-B-D (2)
E / G#-B-E (5)
A / A-C#-E (1)

Key of D
E / B-E-G (2)
A / C#-E-A (5)
D / D-F#-A (1)

Key of G
A / E-A-C (2)
D / F#-A-D (5)
G / G-B-D (1)

[csedwards2]

OK guys this is making no sense to me.

To me this is a series of 2-5s, assuming he is starting in Bb major;

So where are you guys getting that this is a 1-5 or 7-3-6 or whatever?

 

yeah, you're right sir.

They are not 2-5-1s, they are 2-5s After you play the 2-5 in one key, you got the next key. I dont even think about keys when Im playing it though. I do it to go through the entire cycle of fourths, using those voicings. Its a continuous pattern I play. I dont stop until I get back to my Cm9 chord. The goal is to know exactly how to feel this voicing with your hand, and just play it anytime you hear it, rather than think about it.

Even though I got the LOL, I'm completely serious. 2-5's don't move that way with the chords u using.  The bass notes do, but the chords suggest something else, unless u in a minor key.

Well, they sound like 6-2's to me.  If u listen to the way the chords sound, u would agree wit me.  It starts off in Eb, then goes to Db, then Cb/B, etc.  That is a very well-known and widely used progression in gospel music, so please trust ya boi. 

And I gave 2 examples of where the exact voicings can be heard. Its very popular, esp around the time of Perfect Praise.

[T-Block]

And I gave 2 examples of where the exact voicings can be heard. Its very popular, esp around the time of Perfect Praise.

U mind posting that song because I've heard and played "Perfect Praise" and I have never heard those voicings used in that song (or any song) this way.  The only way I've heard, seen, and used those particular voicings is as a 6-2-5-1 progression.  It could also work as a 2-5 in a minor key, which i hadn't thought of b4 til now.  I seriously doubt u could pull that off in a major key.

This is a very popular progression cuz I use it all the time.


 

[Fenix]

U mind posting that song because I've heard and played "Perfect Praise" and I have never heard those voicings used in that song (or any song) this way.  The only way I've heard, seen, and used those particular voicings is as a 6-2-5-1 progression.  It could also work as a 2-5 in a minor key, which i hadn't thought of b4 til now.  I seriously doubt u could pull that off in a major key.

This is a very popular progression cuz I use it all the time.


 

See thats the thing right there: you are thinking interms of ONE key. The progressions CS posted transpose down a whole step, so every time you play each 2-5 set, you are in a new key that is a whole step below the key you were just in.

I like this exercise man, thanks for posting it.

Mrs Vonee, i like yours also. I will be using it to practice now.

[musallio]

.

I like this exercise man, thanks for posting it.

Mrs Vonee, i like yours also. I will be using it to practice now.

ME 2

[T-Block]

See thats the thing right there: you are thinking interms of ONE key. The progressions CS posted transpose down a whole step, so every time you play each 2-5 set, you are in a new key that is a whole step below the key you were just in.

I get the fact that it's transposing down a key every time, what I don't agree with is calling them 2-5's in a major key.  That's the only issue I have with it.  It could be either 6-2's or 5-1's in a major key or 2-5's in a minor key.  Like I said b4, I play these chords all the time.  Heck, I even designed a practice routine around them here: 

Progression using Circle of 4ths

Circle 1:

A / G-C-E           
D / F#-C-E   or   D / F#-B-D#       
G / F-Bb-D           
C / E-Bb-D   or   C / E-A-C#
F / Eb-Ab-C
Bb / D-Ab-C   or   Bb / D-G-B
Eb / Db-Gb-Bb
Ab / C-Gb-Bb   or   Ab / C-F-A 
Db / Cb-E-Ab
Gb / Bb-E-Ab   or   Gb / Bb-Eb-G
B / A-D-F#
E / G#-D-F#   or   E / G#-C#-E#
(and you right back where you started)


Circle 2:

D / C-F-A
G / B-F-A   or   G / B-E-G#
C / Bb-Eb-G
F / A-Eb-G   or   F / A-D-F#
Bb / Ab-Db-F
Eb / G-Db-F   or   Eb / G-C-E
Ab / Gb-B-Db
Db / F-B-Db   or   Db / F-Bb-D
Gb / Fb-A-Db
Cb / Eb-A-Db   or   Cb / Eb-Ab-C
E / D-G-B
A / C#-G-B   or   A / C#-F#-A#
(and you right back where you started)

Now, look at these 2 circles of 4ths.  They look similar, they use all the same notes, but each will sound different because they start different.  The first circle starts with A going to D, but the second circle starts with D going to G.  Can you see the difference?  It's hard to see at first, but you'll get it.

The part in bold is the same thing cs posted, and these are either 6-2's or 5-1's in a major key.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on what to call them.

[Fenix]

I get the fact that it's transposing down a key every time, what I don't agree with is calling them 2-5's in a major key.  That's the only issue I have with it.  It could be either 6-2's or 5-1's in a major key or 2-5's in a minor key.  Like I said b4, I play these chords all the time.  Heck, I even designed a practice routine around them here: 

The part in bold is the same thing cs posted, and these are either 6-2's or 5-1's in a major key.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on what to call them.

You go to music school and i don't so i'll defer to you on this one.

[csedwards2]

You go to music school and i don't so i'll defer to you on this one.

I did, so I wont. Dont give up on your understanding of theory so fast. You might understand more than you know.

Song:  Perfect Praise
Key:  Eb
By:  Ferrente
LH/RH


Bb/AbBbCEb                     Oh
Eb/BbEbG                        Lord
Eb/CEbFAb                     (filler)
Eb/BbEbG                       How
G/FBbDF                        Excellent
D/FBbDF                         How
C#/GBbEbG                    Excellent
C#/BbEbG                      How
E/C#GBb                        Excel--
F/BEbFAb                      --lent
G/BbC#EG                     (filler)
Ab/BEbFAb                     How
Bb/BbEbGBb                    Excellent
CBb/FGC                         (filler)
CBb/EAbC                        (filler)
F,G/AbEbGBb                  Is-----
A/CEbBb                        ---is----
Bb/DFBb                       ---is
Bb/DFBb                        Thy
EbAb/DFBb                       Name---
EbG/EbGBb                      ---ame
A/FAC                           (filler)
Eb/DFBbD                       (filler)
Bb/EbGBbEb                    (filler)
D/CFBb                           There
G/BEbFAb                           Is
C/BbDEbG                      None like you
F/ADEbG                        (filler)
Bb/AbCC#F                     None like
Eb,F,G/GCC#F                     You
Ab/BbCEbG                       None like you-
F/BbEbFAb                       --ou
G/BbC#EbG                       Je---
Ab/BbEbFAb                       --sus
Bb/BbEbGBb                       Excellent
CBb/FGC                            (filler)
CBb/EAbC                           (filler)
F,G/AbEbGBb                     Is----
A/CEbBb                           ---is---
Bb/DFBb                            --is
Bb/DFBb                             Thy
EbAb/DFBb                        Name---
EbBb/EbGBb                     ---ame
C#/EbGBbEb                     In all the Earth
C/EbAbCEb                       In all the Earth
C/EbAbCEb                       In all the
A/FACF                            Earth
A/FACF                           In all the
Bb/FBbDF                         Earth
Ab/FBbDF                         (filler)
G/EbGBbEb                         Je----
Ab/FAbBbEb                       ---sus
Bb/EbGBbEb                        Excellent
CBb/FGC                            (filler)
CBb/EAbC                           (filler)
F,G/AbEbGBb                          Is------
A/CEbBb                            ----is-----
Bb/DFBb                           -----is
Bb/DFBb                            Thy
EbAb/DFBb                          Name---
EbBb/EbGBb                       ---ame

TBlock, do you understand the concept of tonicizing?

[csedwards2]

The part in bold is the same thing cs posted, and these are either 6-2's or 5-1's in a major key.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on what to call them.

A / G-C-E           
D / F#-C-E

lets look at one, by its self and we'll analyze why this is only, a 2-5.
I'll use T Blocks voicings for this.

In the key of G major, the scale goes G A B C D E F# G

Here we have a A/GCE

you even talked about the concept in the "What chord is this" thread that to find a chord you spell it in thirds, so this one should be spelled, A C E G in root position. This follows the " build a chord off every other note in the scale" rule. In G major, this chord is a 2.

-Now you called it a 6. Which it could be, because they are spelled exactly the same way. Because , in addition to 2's, 6's are minor in nature in a major key as well as 3's. So it could be
a 6 in C major - C D E F G A B C, or
a 3 in F major - F G A Bb C D E F.

-Here is why it cannot be a 5 in a major key. Giving it the name of 5, it has to fulfill the function of a 5, and include a leading tone to the tonic.

So here we have our good ole Aminor 7 chord, spelled ACEG, if we call it a 5, that means the tonic would have to be D. So in D major we have D E F# G A B C# D. The leading tone in D major is the C#, which is necessary in the 5 chord to get back to the tonic. So in the A chord we have, we have a C natural. So automatically, by default this option is eliminated as a possibility. It cannot be a 5 chord in D major without a C#. For you advanced cats who are thinking about an A7#9 ie. A/C#EGB# or A7#5#9 ie A/C#E#GB# and how it has a C natural in it; it wouldnt be a dom7 chord at all with out the C#. Soon as you take it out, it looses its function as a 5. Again, the 5-1 option is eliminated as a possibility.

So to recap, it can be a progression that starts with a 2, 3, or 6, but cannot be any progression that starts with a 5.

Now for the ending.

Since we have 3 possibilities, this progression is ultimately determined by the two chords together, and not individually. So we, in essence need this next chord to tell us what key we're in and give us the ultimate analysis. Remember we have to analyze this in light of the whole progression, so we're analyzing the first chord and its possibilities for analysis.

So lets see if its a 3.
-If its a 3, then it puts us in the key of F major - F G A Bb C D E F, and the second chord of D/F#CE, by itself would have to be analyzed as a D9. in root position it'd be D F# A C E. Now we dont have an A in this chord, but that would not change the function of the chord, so its not important to have it in. I could develop that idea, but lets move on. So in the key of F major - F G A Bb C D E F, we have to decide if we can spell a D9 by the presence of the notes in the major scale of F; and we see that we cant because of the lack of an F#. This possibility is out. Next

Lets see if its a 6.

That would put us in the key of C major - C D E F G A B C. So our Aminor fits, but how would we analyze the next chord of D9? Could it be a 2? Lets see. D9 - D F# C E. We see we cannot use this analysis, because there is no F# in the key of C. The possibility of this progression being a 6-2 in a major is eliminated because of the F#.

So in the end, it can only be a 2-5
A minor chord going to a dominant chord one fourth up or one fifth down is a 2-5. Knowing that its a 2-5 gives you the key.