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Author Topic: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!  (Read 14984 times)

Offline themidiroom

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2008, 11:18:35 AM »
I stopped worrying about what others thought about my playing and whether or not I used or did not use the transpose feature on a keyboard or not.  I have used it when things were crucial and the singer came up with a sore throat last minute and it was a paid gig.  No sense sounding bad purely because my ego needed stroked.  The show or in this case the service was the most important thing.  Can I play in twelve keys, yes.  Do I want to slop through something with a a house full of people that are expecting a great concert merely because I have to proove to everyone that "Look ma, no transpose button!"? OR do I play it as we have rehearsed for weeks to get the performance as perfect as we can so the singer sounds great and no one is the wiser.  I choose to not allow my ego to over-ride my common sense.

I play organ... The XK-3 kind.  There are numerous hisses and despairing remarks about these new fangled electronic instruments not sounding like the real deal.  I have to beg to differ.  I run mine through a 145 Leslie and it screams.

The great thing about opinions is that everyone is entitled to theirs.  You all have yours.  I respect the fact that you believe what you do.  I disagree because it is not practical in all cases and shows a very small minded view of what music is about as a whole.  It is not about transposers and cappos.  It is about what lies underneath.  If you really believe that the only thing that makes a musician great is their ability to play without transposition, you really no nothing about music at all....
Very well said.
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Offline musallio

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2008, 12:24:16 PM »
Very well said.


Indeed...very well said Wolfie....

I know a number of guys who've been playing for over a decade & all they know is 1 key..but bottom line is that people like what they play & invite them all over time & time again, not a single person in the audience's ever complained about them not sounding in tune ::)
I also love the way they play...
I've tried to talk them all into learning the other keys--others don't want to think of it, some do..
I respect all their choices because at the end of the day it's their own personal development & goals they've set themselves...

I also used the transpose this Sunday after I had failed to play a particular song the way I wanted to in it's original key. It was only me who felt let down, but a man's gonna do what a man's gotto do sometimes. It would be ok if I was just practicing & I contunued in that challenging key, but not when the congregation is busy dancing & I hinder them.
Everything flowed with more vigor after I had transposed & no 1 condemned me for it.

But amidst all that, I still strive to master all the keys because it's where I want to be at, whether people notice it or not..I get my sense of achievement no so much from people giving me accolades, but me knowing I'd done what I'd set out to do..Just like when I fail, most of the dissappointment is directed towards myself & I couldn't care less that some1 was waiting for me to stumble.
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Offline THE WOLFMAN

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2008, 02:00:24 PM »
Indeed...very well said Wolfie....
I was like, what'd i say?


lolz..

Offline themidiroom

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2008, 02:11:01 PM »
I was like, what'd i say?


lolz..
There's a new wolf in town.    ;D
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Offline musallio

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2008, 02:30:12 PM »
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Offline Wolfram

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2008, 03:04:19 PM »
Indeed...very well said Wolfie....

I know a number of guys who've been playing for over a decade & all they know is 1 key..but bottom line is that people like what they play & invite them all over time & time again, not a single person in the audience's ever complained about them not sounding in tune ::)
I also love the way they play...
I've tried to talk them all into learning the other keys--others don't want to think of it, some do..
I respect all their choices because at the end of the day it's their own personal development & goals they've set themselves...

I also used the transpose this Sunday after I had failed to play a particular song the way I wanted to in it's original key. It was only me who felt let down, but a man's gonna do what a man's gotto do sometimes. It would be ok if I was just practicing & I contunued in that challenging key, but not when the congregation is busy dancing & I hinder them.
Everything flowed with more vigor after I had transposed & no 1 condemned me for it.

But amidst all that, I still strive to master all the keys because it's where I want to be at, whether people notice it or not..I get my sense of achievement no so much from people giving me accolades, but me knowing I'd done what I'd set out to do..Just like when I fail, most of the dissappointment is directed towards myself & I couldn't care less that some1 was waiting for me to stumble.


On the flip side of things...  I do encourage a constant growth in everyone's progress in music.  I, for example, will learn continue to practice this particular song in all 11 other keys so that it feels as smooth as butter to me no matter where I play it so that if this happens again, I will not have to use the transposition key option.  I do not, however feel like I cheated anyone out of a great performance.  I just know that it will bug me, personally to not have something under my fingers.  The time for this feeling happens to me in practice, never in performance.  The performance is for the people. 

Offline musallio

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2008, 04:41:59 PM »
On the flip side of things...  I do encourage a constant growth in everyone's progress in music.  I, for example, will learn continue to practice this particular song in all 11 other keys so that it feels as smooth as butter to me no matter where I play it so that if this happens again, I will not have to use the transposition key option.  I do not, however feel like I cheated anyone out of a great performance.  I just know that it will bug me, personally to not have something under my fingers.  The time for this feeling happens to me in practice, never in performance.  The performance is for the people. 



Very well said.
You described exactly what happens to me.
I did exactly just that & exausted the song in all the keys..
Takes time but worth it at the end for me..
Thanks for pill of wizdom. :)
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Offline Wolfram

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2008, 12:54:15 PM »
I have known several music people that will only play music on the black, meaning Eb, Ab, Gb, Db.  They cannot fathom extending themselves out to playing something outside of this realm.  Why do they do this?  It all started out because it was 1) Playing on just the black keys is an easier way to start off sounding good. 2)  We learn by rote.  Many have gone down this path before us...  3) We tend to play in the style and ways that those around us push us to play in.

A rock keyboard player will be stronger in the guitar keys of E, A, B etc.. because he plays in those keys all the time..  A gospel player is stronger in the flatted versions of those keys.

When we start to look at hand position, there is a HUGE comfort level to consider.  Muscle memory comes into play and so does knowing your musical theory.  Making the jump to play in keys that you are unfamiliar with is not simply diving in and hacking away at a piece of wood.  You have to approach each new key with a plan.  You have to look at how the voicings will work together and how you will interconnect the song to make the song into MUSIC.  It is not merely mimicking the original key's tune into another tonal center, it is recreating it in another tonal COLOR.

Eb Major does not have the same tonal sound as B major.  D Major does not remotely sound like Ab Major.  Each tonal center has it's own sound COLOR.  We have to take this into consideration when we take about transposition otherwise you can take an otherwise light sounding melody and make it sound heavy and dreary because all you really did was mimic your voicing instead of making your voicing key specific.

In Jazz, we get this a lot.  You cannot voice lead the same way once you change the keys of a song because the song is either darker or lighter sounding.  Ask yourself this.  When you want to change the keys of a song during worship to add energy, do you go up in the key or down?  If you answered up, you are correct.  Linearly shifting the key up adds energy, you should also look at how you are voicing your chords.  That could also add energy... or maybe you are taking it away by merely mimicking?

Just some things to think about

Offline musallio

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2008, 01:43:00 PM »
I have known several music people that will only play music on the black, meaning Eb, Ab, Gb, Db.  They cannot fathom extending themselves out to playing something outside of this realm.  Why do they do this?  It all started out because it was 1) Playing on just the black keys is an easier way to start off sounding good. 2)  We learn by rote.  Many have gone down this path before us...  3) We tend to play in the style and ways that those around us push us to play in.

A rock keyboard player will be stronger in the guitar keys of E, A, B etc.. because he plays in those keys all the time..  A gospel player is stronger in the flatted versions of those keys.

When we start to look at hand position, there is a HUGE comfort level to consider.  Muscle memory comes into play and so does knowing your musical theory.  Making the jump to play in keys that you are unfamiliar with is not simply diving in and hacking away at a piece of wood.  You have to approach each new key with a plan.  You have to look at how the voicings will work together and how you will interconnect the song to make the song into MUSIC.  It is not merely mimicking the original key's tune into another tonal center, it is recreating it in another tonal COLOR.

Eb Major does not have the same tonal sound as B major.  D Major does not remotely sound like Ab Major.  Each tonal center has it's own sound COLOR.  We have to take this into consideration when we take about transposition otherwise you can take an otherwise light sounding melody and make it sound heavy and dreary because all you really did was mimic your voicing instead of making your voicing key specific.

In Jazz, we get this a lot.  You cannot voice lead the same way once you change the keys of a song because the song is either darker or lighter sounding.  Ask yourself this.  When you want to change the keys of a song during worship to add energy, do you go up in the key or down?  If you answered up, you are correct.  Linearly shifting the key up adds energy, you should also look at how you are voicing your chords.  That could also add energy... or maybe you are taking it away by merely mimicking?

Just some things to think about

Again, Important points mentioned there Wolfie ;D Wolfram  :)

I've come across a handful of players who've been playing for over a decade, but can only play in 1 key, so I looked at those 4 & thought ..wow, at least that's something (although it won't help you if the song is in G & you have to play a grand piano ::)) But you nailed everything on the wall very accurately (like how newcomers just blindly follow their "aged" heroes without saying, wait a min, how come most of these keys are "no go areas"?.etc..so they pass on that mentality that it is impossible to learn to play in all the 12 keys..I guess it's all based on the performance side of things for most guys who want to play & self-development is flushed out in the process ::)..I know that when guys ask me to help them out & I explain to them that I'll give them theory as part of the package, they never return..at the same time they want to do it in all the keys..4 show off I think :-\)

Well, I could blabber on... :-X


It was such a pleasure to read this I ws expecting some more but then you just stopped!! >:(
Please feel free to add more that's in your mind..I can almost more pearl about to be disposed here ;D
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Offline themidiroom

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2008, 02:57:24 PM »
Just some things to think about
Wolfram, very profound insight you have.    When I started playing for a church in 03, I was terrified at the thought of playing in all those flat keys.  I transposed for a few months until I got the hang of learning intervals in those other keys.  I felt bad about having to do it but I'm glad I did. 
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Offline T-Block

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2008, 10:38:50 AM »
I know that when guys ask me to help them out & I explain to them that I'll give them theory as part of the package, they never return..at the same time they want to do it in all the keys..4 show off I think :-\)

Man, this happens to me so much.  I start off my lessons with theory.  After that first lesson, they gone to the next person.  It doesn't really bother me, it just saddens me a little.  I got one faithful student right now (in person that is), so I'll just work with her.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
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Offline seemunny

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2008, 01:14:30 AM »
Man, this happens to me so much.  I start off my lessons with theory.  After that first lesson, they gone to the next person.  It doesn't really bother me, it just saddens me a little.  I got one faithful student right now (in person that is), so I'll just work with her.

Aww man, they don't wanna do all the stretchin & calisthenics & meditation! They wanna get to the kicks & chops as soon as possible! lol

They sayin: "you can't mediate somebody across the room!...you got to kick 'em!" lol 8)
i just hope the "martial arts metaphor" was made clear enough. lol

Offline T-Block

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2008, 06:59:23 AM »
Aww man, they don't wanna do all the stretchin & calisthenics & meditation! They wanna get to the kicks & chops as soon as possible! lol

They sayin: "you can't mediate somebody across the room!...you got to kick 'em!" lol 8)
i just hope the "martial arts metaphor" was made clear enough. lol

That's it, the old "walk(run)-before-you-crawl(walk)" attitude.  It's a serious disease that's affecting musicians everywhere.
Real musicians play in every key!!!
Music Theory, da numbers work!

Offline under13

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2008, 08:01:16 AM »
Man, this happens to me so much.  I start off my lessons with theory.  After that first lesson, they gone to the next person.  It doesn't really bother me, it just saddens me a little.  I got one faithful student right now (in person that is), so I'll just work with her.
That's it, the old "walk(run)-before-you-crawl(walk)" attitude.  It's a serious disease that's affecting musicians everywhere.

I dont thinnk this is always the case. Its very frustrating when you dont know theory, and you start lessons, and the teacher is throwing all these chord formulas at you that you've never heard before. Music theory is a language, a foriegn one to new musicians. You cant always expect  someone not to be frustrated  when they dont understad a word you are saying. You may as well be speakin in tounges. Also, everybody learns different. Some people learn better with their ear or by sheet music as oposed to theory. Theory isnt the only way to learn. And if there is one person who is gonna slinging theory right and left, its you T-block. :D

If I knew last year, what I do now, then I probaly would have kept going to lessons.

Offline themidiroom

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2008, 06:30:40 PM »
Also, everybody learns different. Some people learn better with their ear or by sheet music as oposed to theory. Theory isnt the only way to learn. And if there is one person who is gonna slinging theory right and left, its you T-block. :D

If I knew last year, what I do now, then I probaly would have kept going to lessons.
I have to agree with you.  There was a lot of theory that I just didn't "get" when I was younger and less experienced.  Now that I've been playing for years, it makes a lot more sense to me and theory combined with experience works well for me at this point.
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Offline seemunny

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2008, 01:00:47 AM »
I have to agree with you.  There was a lot of theory that I just didn't "get" when I was younger and less experienced.  Now that I've been playing for years, it makes a lot more sense to me and theory combined with experience works well for me at this point.

This could be true for some. But, also..."not getting it" could sometimes be due to the teacher. That could make all the difference in the world!

To me, to be taught Theory with "no context" of what it's used for, would just bored me to death. However, if you told me "listen to this tight musician (it might even be Stevie Wonder in an impromptu Shed! lol) - you hear those fly chords he's playing? This theory will help you understand & play ALL THAT stuff much quicker!"....Man...i'm THERE! Bring it! lol...see what i mean?

However, i think T-block is one of the "good" teachers! 8)

Offline under13

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2008, 01:02:06 AM »
I have to agree with you.  There was a lot of theory that I just didn't "get" when I was younger and less experienced.  Now that I've been playing for years, it makes a lot more sense to me and theory combined with experience works well for me at this point.

And not to say that theory should not be taught at first, but you gotta mix it up with what the student is used to.

Offline themidiroom

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2008, 08:48:50 AM »
And not to say that theory should not be taught at first, but you gotta mix it up with what the student is used to.


When I took lessons way back when, it was all theory.  Learning music was not interesting of fun to me and as far as ear training, you could hang it up.  The key is to assess what you want out of it and find a teacher that can keep you on track.  I left my teacher and never looked back.
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Offline Wolfram

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2008, 10:52:13 AM »
I learned music from the heart first and then had my mind catch up.  Once theory was applied to everything I knew sounded good to my ear, it all started to click.  Not only did I become exponentially a better musician/saxophone/keyboardist, I was able to communicate with others in the craft using a language that was common.

My own creativity also took a turn for the better.  I was amazed at the world that opened up.  You have to approach things in baby steps, but you have to prepared to work and learn.  It does not come easy to most.  Musical theory is like the cement that you use to set your musical house on.  If is strong, your house stands on a great foundation, if it is not, you do not have a stable ground to build upon.

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Offline seemunny

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Re: Clever Way To Put A Transposer On Any Organ!!
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2008, 12:33:30 AM »
When I took lessons way back when, it was all theory.  Learning music was not interesting or fun to me.....The key is to assess what you want out of it and find a teacher that can keep you on track.


...to be taught Theory with "no context" of what it's used for, would just bored me to death. However, if you told me "listen to this tight musician (it might even be Stevie Wonder in an impromptu Shed! lol) - you hear those fly chords he's playing? This theory will help you understand & play ALL THAT stuff much quicker!"....Man...i'm THERE! Bring it! lol...see what i mean?

In the beginning, there may be certain kinds of music you like and wanna sound like, with certain kinds of chords & progressions and whatnot, therefore, if a teacher can CONNECT theory to all of that good stuff, and you can then "see" how theory will help get you there...aww man, it's a wrap!

(note): Actually, even AFTER you've advanced musically, but don't know theory, WHATEVER else exists in music that you still haven't conquered yet, if someone can connect your missing puzzle to "theory", even that advanced musician will still probably get on board the Theory Train! 8)
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