Would you let talented non members play at your church?

[malthumb]

The topic isn't about having guest musicians.  It's about having non-members become permanent fixtures in the musician's ministry.

To All:
So if a non-member wants to be a permanent fixture (btw, we don't have that prob anymore and I kinda misinterpreted the rule anyway...even though it seemed straight foward...but I digress) would you consider them a part of the musician's ministry or just playing/performing with the musician's ministry?

Part of the music ministry

[malthumb]

What makes you think those positions are paid at all churches? 

I don't think they are paid at ALL churches.  But just as some churches have paid musicians and some don't, some have paid secretaries, custodians, van drivers, others don't.  For those who do, Im curious as to whether or not they also have to be members.

[seemunny]

Ok, i see how yall are really debating and discussing this on both sides of the issue. And, i've had a little time to think on it, and here's what i came up with:


I STILL just don't know!.....Catch you on the rebound Chief!!

[diverse379]

Ok, i see how yall are really debating and discussing this on both sides of the issue. And, i've had a little time to think on it, and here's what i came up with:


I STILL just don't know!.....Catch you on the rebound Chief!!

I hear you I wanted to run too

it's scary how many are on the side of
no member no play!

[sjonathan02]

I hear you I wanted to run too

it's scary how many are on the side of
no member no play!

I submit that most churches have probably been burned, left high and dry, etc. by folks who weren't members.

[under13]

I submit that most churches have probably been burned, left high and dry, etc. by folks who weren't members.

Just like musicians have been burned, left high and dry, etc. by churches that they are members of.

[sjonathan02]

Just like musicians have been burned, left high and dry, etc. by churches that they are members of.

*in my best Braxton voice*
Ahhhhh........the ever popular, "two wrongs makes a right" defense. 

[diverse379]

*in my best Braxton voice*
Ahhhhh........the ever popular, "two wrongs makes a right" defense. 

I will support under thirteen and say that I will use this to counter what you say as well not because two wrongs make a right
because the jury is out whether forcing one to become a member is right


but it is a significant point that since musicians have been burned and left high and dry to coin that phrase
by becoming members then that would say that there are issues to face.


and possble reasons why musicians would be leary of joining up with ministries that they play for

[sjonathan02]

I will support under thirteen and say that I will use this to counter what you say as well not because two wrongs make a right
because the jury is out whether forcing one to become a member is right


but it is a significant point that since musicians have been burned and left high and dry to coin that phrase
by becoming members then that would say that there are issues to face.


and possble reasons why musicians would be leary of joining up with ministries that they play for

It appears to me that:

a. this would need to be taken on a case by case basis. I'm sure there are musicians who have only played for one church (their childhood church not withstanding) and have had no problems.

b. BOTH sides need to really sit down and determine what is going to work for the ministry long-term.

The musician's been burned; the church has been burned. So, now what? Feel me?

At the end of the day, we're going to be on the opposite side of this thing. I have a problem with a musician who's only going to show up at church to play, then bounce.

[under13]

I will support under thirteen and say that I will use this to counter what you say as well not because two wrongs make a right
because the jury is out whether forcing one to become a member is right


but it is a significant point that since musicians have been burned and left high and dry to coin that phrase
by becoming members then that would say that there are issues to face.


and possble reasons why musicians would be leary of joining up with ministries that they play for

Hmm. Its even worse when its your Home church that takes advantage of you.

I think I said this before, but if churches want musicians to be members, then they should train the young people to be musicians, and they should treat them fairly and with respect

In my opinion, a church thats gonna force you to be a member, probaly just wants to maximize the chances that you wont leave. And such a church will pobaly have other rules that make little sense.

I have a problem with a musician who's only going to show up at church to play, then bounce.

Why? How does that hurt the church? Enlighten a brother.

[malthumb]

Hmm. Its even worse when its your Home church that takes advantage of you.

I think I said this before, but if churches want musicians to be members, then they should train the young people to be musicians, and they should treat them fairly and with respect

In my opinion, a church thats gonna force you to be a member, probaly just wants to maximize the chances that you wont leave. And such a church will pobaly have other rules that make little sense......

Cosign.  All o' that!


But some churches are too small to have a legitimate chance at training someone within the membership.  They would need to and should consider, hiring outside musicians.  That or just go with no musicians at all.  I've seen that work.

Peace,

James

[sjonathan02]

Cosign.  All o' that!


But some churches are too small to have a legitimate chance at training someone within the membership.  They would need to and should consider, hiring outside musicians.  That or just go with no musicians at all.  I've seen that work.

Peace,

James

A LOT of people wouldn't/don't understand that concept, at all. 

BTW, those small churches may not be able to afford to pay musicians due to their size. Doesn't mean they ain't bringin' the Word, though. 

[under13]

Cosign.  All o' that!


But some churches are too small to have a legitimate chance at training someone within the membership.  They would need to and should consider, hiring outside musicians.  That or just go with no musicians at all.  I've seen that work.

Peace,

James

A LOT of people wouldn't/don't understand that concept, at all. 

BTW, those small churches may not be able to afford to pay musicians due to their size. Doesn't mean they ain't bringin' the Word, though. 

I agree.

I also hope we can agree to disagree, cuz I dont think anybody is gonna change thier minds.

[sjonathan02]

I agree.

I also hope we can agree to disagree, cuz I dont think anybody is gonna change thier minds.

At the end of the day, we're going to be on the opposite side of this thing.

Really?

[malthumb]

....BTW, those small churches may not be able to afford to pay musicians due to their size. Doesn't mean they ain't bringin' the Word, though. 

I know. I cut my chops playing at several of them for no charge.  As a non-member.

[under13]

I know. I cut my chops playing at several of them for no charge.  As a non-member.

ditto

[diverse379]

At the end of the day, we're going to be on the opposite side of this thing. I have a problem with a musician who's only going to show up at church to play, then bounce.

I will amen that

I also have a problem with musicians who feel that when the whole congregation stands for the reading of the word they feel they can still sit

reverence for the word is for all

I think we have finally come down to the real meat of this debate
and that is professionalism and courtesy
and commitment
none of which has to do with membership but it does have to do with maturity and integrity


Regardless of whether or not you are a member or not

if you are hired by a church as a full time musician
then you are obligated to play for all of their programs or make sure there is someone present

you are hired to handle their music ministry
that includes special programs rehearsals
etc

this should all be spelled out in a contract
and if your church doesent know this you should as a musician understand the many variable s
and as a christian bring this to bear in the meeting
you have a right to want to charge extra for your extra time commitments

but you dont have a right to take money for nothing
leaving before the benedicition unless given permsission

I have seen many afternoon programs where there is no musician present

I think that as a minister of music or church musician your sundays should be devoted to your contracted hire

it is a covenant between you God and the pastor of the house.

I am glad to see you pen the words you did on this particular post I quoted

because it taught me that although we disagree if we are both on the side of God we will agree when we uncover enough stuff

I understand now that your main purpose with the membership piece is to protect the ministry
I hope you understand that the way to protect the ministry is with mature contientious spirit filled musicians who have reverence for god and his messengers and ingegrity within themselves

[malthumb]

I will amen that

I also have a problem with musicians who feel that when the whole congregation stands for the reading of the word they feel they can still sit

reverence for the word is for all

I think we have finally come down to the real meat of this debate
and that is professionalism and courtesy
and commitment
none of which has to do with membership but it does have to do with maturity and integrity


Regardless of whether or not you are a member or not

if you are hired by a church as a full time musician
then you are obligated to play for all of their programs or make sure there is someone present

you are hired to handle their music ministry
that includes special programs rehearsals
etc

this should all be spelled out in a contract
and if your church doesent know this you should as a musician understand the many variable s
and as a christian bring this to bear in the meeting
you have a right to want to charge extra for your extra time commitments

but you dont have a right to take money for nothing
leaving before the benedicition unless given permsission

I have seen many afternoon programs where there is no musician present

I think that as a minister of music or church musician your sundays should be devoted to your contracted hire

it is a covenant between you God and the pastor of the house.

I am glad to see you pen the words you did on this particular post I quoted

because it taught me that although we disagree if we are both on the side of God we will agree when we uncover enough stuff

I understand now that your main purpose with the membership piece is to protect the ministry
I hope you understand that the way to protect the ministry is with mature contientious spirit filled musicians who have reverence for god and his messengers and ingegrity within themselves

Very well stated.

[sjonathan02]

I will amen that

I also have a problem with musicians who feel that when the whole congregation stands for the reading of the word they feel they can still sit

reverence for the word is for all

I think we have finally come down to the real meat of this debate
and that is professionalism and courtesy
and commitment
none of which has to do with membership but it does have to do with maturity and integrity


Regardless of whether or not you are a member or not

if you are hired by a church as a full time musician
then you are obligated to play for all of their programs or make sure there is someone present

you are hired to handle their music ministry
that includes special programs rehearsals
etc

this should all be spelled out in a contract
and if your church doesent know this you should as a musician understand the many variable s
and as a christian bring this to bear in the meeting
you have a right to want to charge extra for your extra time commitments

but you dont have a right to take money for nothing
leaving before the benedicition unless given permsission

I have seen many afternoon programs where there is no musician present

I think that as a minister of music or church musician your sundays should be devoted to your contracted hire

it is a covenant between you God and the pastor of the house.

I am glad to see you pen the words you did on this particular post I quoted

because it taught me that although we disagree if we are both on the side of God we will agree when we uncover enough stuff

I understand now that your main purpose with the membership piece is to protect the ministry
I hope you understand that the way to protect the ministry is with mature contientious spirit filled musicians who have reverence for god and his messengers and ingegrity within themselves

I appreciate the sentence in bold. And, I can agree with your last paragraph; very well said.

[t-ent]

very well put...

I am Apostolic but I play for a couple SDA choir's.  The church itself has a drummer, but he's still learning.  For the choir, I attend every practice and also help teaching songs.  At times they call me to play for their church services.  I do not ever get paid, nor would I ever ask.  I jumped at the opportunity to play for them, because I love playing.  Albeit, I would never consider switching churches.  At my church I'm a Praise Leader, webmaster and more...  I know there are people who think I shouldn't be playing for them because of our doctrinal differences.  I don't really care (ie my pastor is ok with it), when I play, I'm giving glory to God, plus doing something I greatly enjoy. 

I think the line should stop at complete non-believers, the "unchurched".  What spirit are they bringing?  What is their motive?  Yes, I know you could ask the same questions of the 'churched', but more than likely their base is better and will at least a basic understanding of worship.  To the unsaved man, it's just a gig.

t-ent