Would you let talented non members play at your church?

[diverse379]

there are clearly some very strong issues

I can probably quote chronicles where david appointed various people to minister in song and on instruments

it was assumed that at that time because of the communal living system they were probably members so to speak because it wasnt as though there were several houses of worship to choose from everyone went to the same temple

so other then that there is no where that the bible says we should be members

so yes lets start to look at scripture to solve this debate

I noticed when I said that at no time did the holy spirit ever convict me or lead me to become a member at any church I played.

any church I ever played I always put God first and sought to help that ministry grow because that was my charge and my stewardship was that church.

the church where I am playing now I became a member because the pastor said he would license me


I moved probably ahead of God
and it was the worst mistake

The pastor is not mature
and full of pride
so there are a lot of issues

I am not comfortable being a member I like the people but it is hypocritical for me to really be a member since I am not in agreement with the pastors approach to this ministry

that being said

the ultimate thing that everyone on this thread should be concerned with is what does God want you to do,

not what do you think or what do you want to do but what does
God want you to do,.

if you dont know then say you dont know

but all this thread has said so far is peoples opinions presented as truth

but I havent heard anyone say this is the perfect will of God '
and the reason no one has said that is because that would be a lie

where the spirit is there is liberty

that is the only scripture I need to site to back what I am saying

liberty not bondage

so if you want to subjugate bring under control you are not operating in the spirit

the example jesus gave is invite not force

do what god wants you to do on a case by case basis

[sjonathan02]

Since when is being a member of a church bondage? 

[Gospelstar21]

Personally I feel like if you play, singing, dance or whatever for the church you should be a member,here's why.

I am praise and worship leader at my ministry and I have had to deal with the same issues as far as musicians being invited by other musicians or singers coming in wanting to join the praise team but not the ministry. The reason why this can't be is because Playing an instrument in the church is a ministry, singing is a ministry. You have to be (should be) anointed to do what you are doing. Set aside for this very purpose and able to flow with the anointing that is in your house (church) You have to be able to flow with the anointing over your pastor(s) life. When you bringing in strangers they don't always no how to flow with what is going on.

Another reason: Different people carry different spirits depending on what they entertained the night before, the week before, the hour before, etc. If you bring in a musician (no matter how good he is) who isn't in the right spirit, or one that has entertained the wrong spirit it will hinder the move of God, or rather slow it down because then strong holds will have to be pulled down.

Then like the writer said it becomes a jam session rather then us doing what we need to do.

I also feel that as a musician you have to be saved and have a active relationship with God. Many may disagree because alot of what a musician does come from experience and pure talent. But have you ever seen what can happen when everyone is saved and on one accord! There is no words to describe what God will do in that service, practice, etc.

Musicians who are members at the church that they play at usually are (well they are suppose to be) dedicated to what the vision of the pastor is for that house. Meaning if the pastor has to preach out of town they should be more than willing to follow. If the pastor is having a week long pastor's anniversary, they should be more than willing to participate. Musicians who are not connected to the ministry(have not joined) are not obligated to show up which can leave you high and dry. ( trust me I've experienced this) Its the same for guest/visiting singers.

Bringing in extra musicians to assist while putting on a big production (anniversary, concert, etc) is cool but you already have the understanding that they won't be there always.

In closing I would like to say that it is always the musicians who are connected to the ministry who make it. Those are the ones that grow and become like tye's "sound check" Jesus first is the key to all musicians corners, praise teams, dance groups, etc. Pray that God will send you what you need, not quick fixes for a month or so..or when every they feel like being there. Some one that will enhance what you already have, not one that will hender, or cause you to lose focus.

[Gospelstar21]

i'm just reading the whole thread so im kinda late , but me personally...no i wouldn't let non-members play at  my church under conditions b/c for one, non-member musicians sometimes are those musicians that give the music ministry hell b/c they really just play at the church to say their a MOM or a musician somewhere and on the other hand deep down inside really don't support the vision of the church they play for.  In which these are ususally the musicians that don't have time to be in rehearsal for over 1 hour nor practice until Sunday and the ones who don't go with the church pastor on any engagements and show up on Sundays whenever they want....

Dude I totally agree.

[Gospelstar21]

I dont know S jonathon and I have had this debate before and many others

I am just not convinced to be honest in the spirit I dont feel That God requires his musicians to become members\

God never spoke to me to be a member of any church

I pray on all I do concerning ministry

and I never felt the holy spirit encourage me to be a member.of a church since I have been ministering


It is not like I work any harder as a member than I do when I wasnt a member.


But this is not something anyone will be able to convince me of
this is only something God can reveal to me if that is his will.

Nor will I try any further to convince anyone of my opinion and I will stay clear of this debate in the future

Let me say my man that you are a rare breed. If you committ yourself, your time and effort to a ministry that you have not joined then God bless you, and again I say you are a rare breed. But don't you think its a lil strange to only be apart of a ministry for a little bit. It isn't wise to keep up rooting yourself, going from minstry to ministry.

[dabeastleash]

I would let them play, because about 2 yrs ago at my church there was a person who came in and got on the drums and one of the (not so nice deacons) told him he had to get off.  I wondered why, I mean there was no one on the drums and he had talent.  When the deacon told him to leave that day he never came back again.  So what I think is that you can have a person who's not a member of your church body perform their talents for the church, and while they continue to play and play you can work up to membership and it will come when its the time.  Besides, at least he's at church, because being in church could've been what saved them from walking the streets and getting hit by a car or being shot at.  And all that would make is another lost soul.  The deacon was wrong for acting like that, and my dad who's also a deacon said that if he were there that Sunday that would not have happened.  So sometimes you have to just give people a chance...

[vocalist182002]

I would let them play, because about 2 yrs ago at my church there was a person who came in and got on the drums and one of the (not so nice deacons) told him he had to get off.  I wondered why, I mean there was no one on the drums and he had talent.  When the deacon told him to leave that day he never came back again.  So what I think is that you can have a person who's not a member of your church body perform their talents for the church, and while they continue to play and play you can work up to membership and it will come when its the time.  Besides, at least he's at church, because being in church could've been what saved them from walking the streets and getting hit by a car or being shot at.  And all that would make is another lost soul.  The deacon was wrong for acting like that, and my dad who's also a deacon said that if he were there that Sunday that would not have happened.  So sometimes you have to just give people a chance...

That is so right, I don't know where people get this whole, be a member issue from.  Being a member aint gonna save your soul when you end up in hell.  Being a member doesn't grant you eternal life.  Accepting Christ as your savior and aknowledging him as King of Kings and Lord of Lords will.  And it is our job as the body of Christ to see souls saved and it is our job to win them to Christ.  The only way we can do this is by accepting them into the church just as they are, broken, hurt, battered, torn, worn, depressed, oppressed and just low, not having.  You don't know how God is going to use your ministry or whomever's ministry.  We have to learn to be willing vessels, open, subjective, and submitted to do the work of the Lord.  It's time out for join my church and be my member, when its all said and done it aint about you or how you want to operate your ministry.  Its about the winning souls and however that has to be done, even if it involves getting of the set, mic, or keyboard to allow someone to be in the presence of God we should let them.  It's not even about us and how many members, who the members are or how much they tithe.  I am so sick of hearing this over and over again.  Let's be real saints and real soul winners, people when are we gonna be about HIM?  

[seemunny]

Man, i just don't even know! This is way too complicatable for my brain!

Ok, i'm sorry, i'll go now!

[diverse379]

Since when is being a member of a church bondage? 

I think it is funny that you would ask me this

is not bondage to lock up or lock in to confine

isnt this the whole idea with why you want only a musician who is a member?

well not any of you of course

but let me tell you about some of my experiences with ministries

and other musicians who I know

I know of two ministries that once they had musicians as members they required them to tithe and go to bible study

now you would all say there is nothing wrong with that because it says in the bible we should tithe
and why would studying the bible be a bad thing

well first of all
tithing is between you and God it should not be forced on you
in fact if it is not done willingly and done grudgingly there is no blessing in that

second
bible study
should also be done voluntarily not forced because the holy spirit never forces only encourages never forces

if we are to be like christ let us be like him in all things

a lot of ministries want to force their musicians to be with them and only them
this is bondage

i had a pastor forbid me to play with other churches she said I was prostituting my gift
she wanted me only to play at her church

is that not a type of bondage?

well you may not see it
but I sure do

lastly

the Bible tells me that the wisdom of man is folly unto God

so all this I believe and I feel
that I am reading in these posts
and not one of you said I am lead by God to do blah blah blah

I say stop going by your feeliings and start going by the Word of God
and let christ be your example

I am a member of the church I play for now

but they dont have any more commitment from me now
if anything they have a little less

so membership is not a requirement nor should it ever be

what sould be a requirement that the musician should know Crhist
understand the Gospel message


and be professional enough to be at his or her post when needed

not run through the churches women or men one after another
and seek the righteousness of christ

and honor the pastors vision for the ministry

that should be the only requirement


lets say I was a member of a small local assembly
and td jakes offered me a position at his church

should I have to join td jakes church
and forsake my home church just becuase this is where my talents landed me?

my pastor is my pastor Why should I forsake him or stop blessing his ministry with my tithes?

I am sorrry I just dont agree with the many of you who feel the way you do
because God has not told me that I should agree with you

God tells me there is liberty in the spirit

and the fact that no one is coming back at me with scripture is testament to the fact that this is not ...............  well let me stop there i dont want to start anything

selah

[under13]

^^^^^^^^^
I agree 100%. There is a difference between Professional Musicians and those who run wild. Just because someone is not a member, doesent mean that they are gonna wreak havoc in the church, and it doesent mean they will not be faithful or that they are not annointed to play.

D, When we gonna get togather and shed? You in Queens right?

[sjonathan02]

You say you want Biblical references but you want to throw out Chronicles?  Rather convenient, no?  I'm reminded of 2 Tim 3:16.

Let's start with 1 Chronicles 6, the entire chapter; but, two particular verses stick out to me, verses 30 & 31:

31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there.

32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them.

These are the Levites assigned to provide the music. Notice they are members of the tribe, not from various tribe, but from the one tribe. It's also a family business within the tribe (1 Chronicles 15, specifically verses 16-22).


Let's be honest, if churches were to truly do it the way the Bible describes, a lot of churches would close up with a quickness.   

Church policy isn't bondage. Fact of the matter is, there are far too many musicians who are only worried about getting the phattest chords and having the spotlight shone on them, as opposed to, our Lord and Savior.

I'm not saying you, Diverse379, fall into that category; in fact, as was stated by someone else, you're a rare breed.

Be that as it may, MOST non-members don't have the best interests of the churches, for whom they play, in mind.

BTW, just because folks haven't decided to quote bible verses to you in defense of their opinion, doesn't negate their feelings or opinion about this particular topic, just like you're quoting a biblical verse doesn't mean that your opinion is the opinion to possess.

Lastly, at the end of the day, you and I will probably remain on our present sides of the fence on this issue. Luckily, it won't keep either of us out of heaven. 

[diverse379]

You say you want Biblical references but you want to throw out Chronicles?  Rather convenient, no?  I'm reminded of 2 Tim 3:16.

Let's start with 1 Chronicles 6, the entire chapter; but, two particular verses stick out to me, verses 30 & 31:

31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there.

32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them.

These are the Levites assigned to provide the music. Notice they are members of the tribe, not from various tribe, but from the one tribe. It's also a family business within the tribe (1 Chronicles 15, specifically verses 16-22).


Let's be honest, if churches were to truly do it the way the Bible describes, a lot of churches would close up with a quickness.   

Church policy isn't bondage. Fact of the matter is, there are far too many musicians who are only worried about getting the phattest chords and having the spotlight shone on them, as opposed to, our Lord and Savior.

I'm not saying you, Diverse379, fall into that category; in fact, as was stated by someone else, you're a rare breed.

Be that as it may, MOST non-members don't have the best interests of the churches, for whom they play, in mind.

BTW, just because folks haven't decided to quote bible verses to you in defense of their opinion, doesn't negate their feelings or opinion about this particular topic, just like you're quoting a biblical verse doesn't mean that your opinion is the opinion to possess.

true that on the your last point

but I am glad you brought some scripture to this thread
because now we can grow in the word not just entrench in our positions and opinions

I thought about chronicles myself I am not throwing out chronicles
I am saying it is not supporting your position
here is why

first the levites were a tribe that ministered to all the tribes they were a levitical tribe
independent of the other tribes
each tribe had levitical tribes among them they were separate from the worshipers because they were worship leaders
they were in a different category

so I am not throwing out chronicles I just know it doesent support your position
they ministered in all the temples so they would have been welcome to move around to different temples


but
but first we know that was a diferent dispensation

second we are not jewish
jewish people are still very clanish in fact they would cringe that the gentiles were invited to sit at the table

the very idea of christ was to invite everyone to the table
you didnt have to be a disciple to fellowship with him

he wanted you to partake
and go back and be changed

as christians we are to be christ like
christ was about inclusion not about protocol
and the traditions of man

so dont start following the pharisees




but I think we have beat this horse enough
there is nothing more that I can say
I think I made my point

and that is that we should be lead of the spirit

I am not advocating that you follow my opinion but that you follow God's will
and urging

I hope that as ministers we would all do that

woe unto those who scatter my sheep

dont ask me how this relates because I wont tell you

I was just lead to write it

[malthumb]

...Be that as it may, MOST non-members don't have the best interests of the churches, for whom they play, in mind....

And this is where the church has to stand up and handle its business.

I bolded and underlined the word BUSINESS for a reason.  Some churches approach BUSINESS with too much trust and serendipity.  People assume that those dealing with the church will do so in good faith.  That, unfortunately is not always true.  There are some aspects of the church that have to be run like a business.  The selection of musicians, be they member or non-member should be handled in that fashion.

I have seen church member musicians behave badly.  I have seen musicians who are not members behave in a stellar manner.  I like to think that I am in the latter group in those situations where I play somewhere other than my home church.  Churches have to be prepared to wave bye-bye to those who are not talented enough or disciplined enough or reverant enough to fit their needs.

I still maintain that it is clearly within any church's right to say "we only want members as musicians".  It is also clearly in a church's right to say "we will allow appropriate non-members to be musicians in our service".

Just curious......for those of you who are in churches that only want church members as musicians, does this same rule apply to church secretaries, custodians, van / bus drivers and other paid positions?  I do recognize that none of these are directly related to conducting service like musicians are, but I am curious as to how this part of "running the church's business" is handled.

Peace,

James

[sjonathan02]

And this is where the church has to stand up and handle its business.

I bolded and underlined the word BUSINESS for a reason.  Some churches approach BUSINESS with too much trust and serendipity.  People assume that those dealing with the church will do so in good faith.  That, unfortunately is not always true.  There are some aspects of the church that have to be run like a business.  The selection of musicians, be they member or non-member should be handled in that fashion.

I have seen church member musicians behave badly.  I have seen musicians who are not members behave in a stellar manner.  I like to think that I am in the latter group in those situations where I play somewhere other than my home church.  Churches have to be prepared to wave bye-bye to those who are not talented enough or disciplined enough or reverant enough to fit their needs.

I still maintain that it is clearly within any church's right to say "we only want members as musicians".  It is also clearly in a church's right to say "we will allow appropriate non-members to be musicians in our service".

Just curious......for those of you who are in churches that only want church members as musicians, does this same rule apply to church secretaries, custodians, van / bus drivers and other paid positions?  I do recognize that none of these are directly related to conducting service like musicians are, but I am curious as to how this part of "running the church's business" is handled.

Peace,

James

What makes you think those positions are paid at all churches? 

[sjonathan02]

true that on the your last point

but I am glad you brought some scripture to this thread

I thought about chronicles myself

but first we know that was a diferent dispensation

second we are not jewish
jewish people are still very clanish in fact they would cringe that the gentiles were invited to sit at the table

the very idea of christ was to invite everyone to the table
you didnt have to be a disciple to fellowship with him

he wanted you to partake
and go back and be changed

as christians we are to be christ like
christ was about inclusion not about protocol
and the traditions of man

so dont start following the pharisees
because they are the ones who wanted to kill christ


but I also remember that in those days there was just one temple in the town or the city

so there was no where else to worship  it would be interesting if a musician came to visit from another tribe would he be allowed to play with them while he was in town visiting

I want to believe he would be allowed to minister



but I think we have beat this horse enough
there is nothing more that I can say
I think I made my point

and that is that we should be lead of the spirit

I am not advocating that you follow my opinion but that you follow God's will
and urging

I hope that as ministers we would all do that

woe unto those who scatter my sheep

dont ask me how this relates because I wont tell you

I was just lead to write it

Now, THAT would be interesting. 

I agree that we should, all of us, be led by the Spirit. As for the "woe unto those who scatter my sheep" line, I'm with ya.

[diverse379]

i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites

the levites were a separate tribe

so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate

the levites were able to minister to all the tribes because they were set apart and separate

also your scripture that you quoted stated that it was to be done until the temple was c ompleted
Levites are the descendants of Levi, one of the Tribes Of Israel, the Children Of Jacob (Genesis 29:34). The term is generally used, from the perspective of The Bible, to identify the part of the tribe that was set apart for the secondary duties of the sanctuary service (1 Kings 8:4, Ezra 2:70), as assistants to the priests, who were also Levites. Although all priests were Levites, not all Levites were priests.
"For the service of The Lord"

Prior to the Exodus, when the Israelites escaped the slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt (see Who Was The Exodus Pharaoh?), the ancient way of worship was yet observed, with the firstborn son of each household inheriting the priest's office. That was changed at Sinai (see Wilderness Journey) when a hereditary priesthood from the family of Aaron was established (Exodus 28:1).

 The Levites were formally set apart after the now-infamous incident with the golden calf idol that the Israelites made while Moses was away receiving The Ten Commandments from The Lord (Exodus chapter 32). The Levites did not take part in the idolatry, and actually killed 3,000 of those who were running wild, as ordered by Moses (Exodus 32:25-29).

After the incident was over, Moses said of the Levites, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of The Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." (Exodus 32:29). The Levites were natural allies of Moses because Moses himself was of the tribe of Levi (Exodus 2:1-2,10).

Levi had 3 sons: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. From those branches of the family, the Levites were organized into 3 levels of service:


The first level was composed of Aaron and his offspring, who were descended from Levi's son Kohath. They formed the priesthood.

The second level was made up of all of the other descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron. They were in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9).

The third level consisted of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari, who were given lesser duties (Numbers 3:21-26,33-37).
The Levites served at the Tabernacle from age 30 to 50 (Numbers 4:3,23,30). They were not counted for military service in the armies of Israel, but were set apart for service to God (Numbers 1:45-50, 2:33, 26:62).

Levites had custody of The Tabernacle (as illustrated above, see also What Happened To The Tabernacle?) (Numbers 1:51, 18:22-24). The Gershonites camped on the west of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:23), the Kohathites on the south (Numbers 3:29), the Merarites on the north (Numbers 3:35), and the priests on the east (Numbers 3:38).



here is what I found on the levites

[cordney]

Quick question:  My mother has a membership at one church and my membership is at another church.  Everytime I fellowship at my mother's church; they ask/let me to play.  Is that really wrong? 

[sjonathan02]

i wanted to make sure I was right about the levites

the levites were a separate tribe

so if we musicians are functioning as levites then we should not have to be members we are supposed to be separate

the levites were able to minister to all the tribes because they were set apart and separate

also your scripture that you quoted stated that it was to be done until the temple was c ompleted
Levites are the descendants of Levi, one of the Tribes Of Israel, the Children Of Jacob (Genesis 29:34). The term is generally used, from the perspective of The Bible, to identify the part of the tribe that was set apart for the secondary duties of the sanctuary service (1 Kings 8:4, Ezra 2:70), as assistants to the priests, who were also Levites. Although all priests were Levites, not all Levites were priests.
"For the service of The Lord"

Prior to the Exodus, when the Israelites escaped the slavery of the Pharaoh of Egypt (see Who Was The Exodus Pharaoh?), the ancient way of worship was yet observed, with the firstborn son of each household inheriting the priest's office. That was changed at Sinai (see Wilderness Journey) when a hereditary priesthood from the family of Aaron was established (Exodus 28:1).

 The Levites were formally set apart after the now-infamous incident with the golden calf idol that the Israelites made while Moses was away receiving The Ten Commandments from The Lord (Exodus chapter 32). The Levites did not take part in the idolatry, and actually killed 3,000 of those who were running wild, as ordered by Moses (Exodus 32:25-29).

After the incident was over, Moses said of the Levites, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of The Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, that he may bestow a blessing upon you this day." (Exodus 32:29). The Levites were natural allies of Moses because Moses himself was of the tribe of Levi (Exodus 2:1-2,10).

Levi had 3 sons: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. From those branches of the family, the Levites were organized into 3 levels of service:


The first level was composed of Aaron and his offspring, who were descended from Levi's son Kohath. They formed the priesthood.

The second level was made up of all of the other descendants of Kohath who were not descendants of Aaron. They were in charge of the most sacred parts of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:27-32, 4:4-15, 7:9).

The third level consisted of all of the descendants of Gershon and Merari, who were given lesser duties (Numbers 3:21-26,33-37).
The Levites served at the Tabernacle from age 30 to 50 (Numbers 4:3,23,30). They were not counted for military service in the armies of Israel, but were set apart for service to God (Numbers 1:45-50, 2:33, 26:62).

Levites had custody of The Tabernacle (as illustrated above, see also What Happened To The Tabernacle?) (Numbers 1:51, 18:22-24). The Gershonites camped on the west of the Tabernacle (Numbers 3:23), the Kohathites on the south (Numbers 3:29), the Merarites on the north (Numbers 3:35), and the priests on the east (Numbers 3:38).



here is what I found on the levites

See, now you're gonna make me do some digging. It's summer man; no lesson plans, none of 'dat!! 

I'll see if I feel up to it. I'm not sure that simply because the Levites were a separate tribe that they weren't 'members'. But, again, I'll have to do some research.


But, now, you're gonna have to pick a stance. Was that a different dispensation or not?  Don't be tryin' to use this to bolster your argument then say we don't have to go by that anymore. (with the ghetto neck roll and all ala Shequita Jenkins from around the way  )

[diverse379]

you are funny man

take it easy enjoy your vacation

i am just glad that we cn get above the mere level of opinions and we can start to really delve into the word

that will only serve to help us all grow

[kodacolor]

Quick question:  My mother has a membership at one church and my membership is at another church.  Everytime I fellowship at my mother's church; they ask/let me to play.  Is that really wrong? 

The topic isn't about having guest musicians.  It's about having non-members become permanent fixtures in the musician's ministry.

To All:
So if a non-member wants to be a permanent fixture (btw, we don't have that prob anymore and I kinda misinterpreted the rule anyway...even though it seemed straight foward...but I digress) would you consider them a part of the musician's ministry or just playing/performing with the musician's ministry?