Fully Diminished & Dominant Chords?

[Teddie_Keys]

Can anyone please help me out?  I have been playing for about 2 years now and I have came a long way.  I do know quite a bit of theory.  However, when it comes down to playing........I have problems placing my diminished and dominate chords in my progressions.  When it comes to playing songs and I use them, I can understand why it was used in that spot of a song.  Especially the fully diminished chord (it seems to be used like a transition or a passing chord often from my experiances).  And like you T-Block I love the sound of a fully diminished chord!  I seem to only really use it when I am backing up a preacher or getting ready to go into shouting music.

So with that said......Let me share what I know so you I can maybe make it a little bit easier on you all.

Major Scale (using Key of C)

I - ii - iii - IV - V° - vi - vii

Cmaj - Dm - Em - Fmaj - Gmaj - Am - Bm

Now is the V° the most common place to use your dominant?
Is vii the most common place to use your diminished?

Take for instance this progression I have started playing..........

Key of F

A#, A, G, F, D

FM9 - played - F / G A C E
Gm9 - played - G / A Bb D F
A#M7 - played - A# / A# D F A
Am7 - played - A / A C E G
FM - played - F / A C F

Now how can anyone throw a dominant or fully diminished chord in there somehow?  You can add more chords in this progression if need be to demostrate there use.

[elio]

Now is the V° the most common place to use your dominate?

The most common, but not the only one. You seem to know your numbers, so I'll try and put it this way - a lot of movements can be reconduced to a ii-V-I, and the V can almost always be a dominant.
For example,

• v-I-IV ("..I once was lost...") can be thought of as a ii-V-I, just moved down 3.5 tones. You can play Gmin7-Cdom7-F
• vii-III-vi ("..never would've made it..")  can be thought of as a ii-V-i (note the minor "i"), just moved down 1.5 tones. You can play Bmin7b5-Edom7-Amin.

.
 

Is vii the most common place to use your diminished?

vii is usually half-diminished (Bmin7b5, B-D-F-A).

Every time you move up a tone (from I to ii, from IV to V, from V to vi) you can use diminished chords.
You can also use a dim chord half a step below where you want to get to.
See the progression below (I don't have a keyboard now, so it might be off).

The new chords are a bit over the top, but I hope this is helpful 

Key of F

A#, A, G, F, D

FM9 - played - F / G A C E
F#dim - F# / F# A C D# (I to ii)
Gm9 - played - G / A Bb D F
Fdom7 - F / C D# F A
A#M7 - played - A# / A# D F A
G#dim - G# / G# B D F (half a step below the Amin)
Am7 - played - A / A C E G
FM - played - F / A C F

[musallio]

well. Elio's done exactly what I was going to do..

i.o.w, use the #1 /b2 as a fully diminished chord when moving between I & ii.. (the transition between the minor & major sounds natural because of the "unstable" characteristics of the diminished chord).

Tip: for all the notes falling outside the major scale, you can actually play them as fully diminished chords & everything will sound cool (ie, #1, b3, b5 ,#5) I guess that's why I like the chromatic scale so much!

But when doing preacher chords, if I play the chromatic scale, I prefer playing

I add 9/13-#Idim7-ii7-bIII11-iii11-IV7-bVdim7-V-#Vdim7-vi-ii-V-I...

[T-Block]

Now is the V° the most common place to use your dominate?
Is vii the most common place to use your diminished?

Answer to question #1:  V isn't the most common place to use a dominant chord, it is just the main/true dominant of your key.  You can make a dominant chord off any of the scale degrees.  When u play a dominant chord on any degree other than V, it is called a Secondary Dominant.  More info about that in these 2 links:

Secondary Dominants:  http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,37792.0.html

Secondary Dominant Chord Practice: http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,43393.0.html

Answer to question 2:  This answer is gonna almost mirror the answer I gave above.  Since vii is naturally diminished already, it is usually expected that a diminished-type chord is played on that degree.  Diminished chords are tricky little critters cuz there are 3 kinds.  2 of them can be placed in a key, 1 of them can't be unless u know the root & resolution.

The regular diminished & half-diminished chords can be placed into a key.  The fully diminished chord can't be placed into a key because all of the notes are the same distance apart.  Since they have no key, they make great passing chords.  I tend to use fully dim. chords on:  #1/b2 (resolve to 2),  #2/b3 (resolve to 3),  #4/5 (resolve to 5),  #5/b6 (resolve to 6)

[musallio]

Answer to question #1:  V isn't the most common place to use a dominant chord, it is just the main/true dominant of your key.  You can make a dominant chord off any of the scale degrees.  When u play a dominant chord on any degree other than V, it is called a Secondary Dominant.  More info about that in these 2 links:

Secondary Dominants:  http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,37792.0.html

Secondary Dominant Chord Practice: http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,43393.0.html

Answer to question 2:  This answer is gonna almost mirror the answer I gave above.  Since vii is naturally diminished already, it is usually expected that a diminished-type chord is played on that degree.  Diminished chords are tricky little critters cuz there are 3 kinds.  2 of them can be placed in a key, 1 of them can't be unless u know the root & resolution.

The regular diminished & half-diminished chords can be placed into a key.  The fully diminished chord can't be placed into a key because all of the notes are the same distance apart.  Since they have no key, they make great passing chords.  I tend to use fully dim. chords on:  #1/b2 (resolve to 2),  #2/b3 (resolve to 3),  #4/b5 (resolve to 5),  #5/b6 (resolve to 6)

 

GREAT ANSWER..

Ok, why don't we take this to the stickies before we lose it to the large database..

[T-Block]

GREAT ANSWER..

Ok, why don't we take this to the stickies before we lose it to the large database..

HAHAHAHAHA, u always wanna make everything a sticky. 

[sjonathan02]

GREAT ANSWER..

Ok, why don't we take this to the stickies before we lose it to the large database..

Request granted. Although, T-Block does have a point.

[musallio]

HAHAHAHAHA, u always wanna make everything a sticky. 

LoL..

  I can't help it if I think the stuff is so useful!

I've stopped using colours on my thick textbooks becuase they end up looking like textbooks..

Request granted. Although, T-Block does have a point.

Thanks sir

[Teddie_Keys]

I'm at work right now so I haven't been able to put it to use.  However, reading it does seem to make sense.  For a dominate (secondary dominate if played other than V?)  it's wanting to resolve to the IV.  So I am going to attempt to apply this tonight in my practice time. 

And as for the Diminished or fully diminished, are common for passing.  The Diminished 7 is not as common necessarilly to the vii degree of the scale, but the half diminished is?  Diminished are commonly used to go up and down in whole steps as a filler is my understanding.

i.e.

C / C E G                  I
C# / C# E G              passing/filler (#1/b2)  C# half diminished
D / D F A                  ii

and visa versa?

I have a progression book that gives me a I - ii - iii - IV progression.  Can I add the V? before the IV?

I - ii - iii- V - IV

Like I said, I am at work.  So I can't test this out but, depending on the rhythm and what is going in my progression a natural Dominate can resolve to the IV comfortably?  However, a Secondary Dominate is an all together different thing in a way.

Secondary Dominate - changing a natural Minor to a Major
(ex.  playing a Emaj in a C scale, that Emaj chord is considered a Secondary Dominate)

I'm just trying to wrap my head around this and become a better muscian.  So, thank you all for your input and help!   




 

[elio]

You've got the general idea. As for your proposal:

I - ii - iii- V - IV

The question to ask is: how to get to IV? A way to do that is to think what the V of IV is. The answer is I. So you can do
I - ii - iii- Idom7 - IV

[T-Block]

i.e.

C / C E G                  I
C# / C# E G              passing/filler (#1/b2)  C# half diminished
D / D F A                  ii


Like I said, I am at work.  So I can't test this out but, depending on the rhythm and what is going in my progression a natural Dominate can resolve to the IV comfortably?  However, a Secondary Dominate is an all together different thing in a way.

Let me comment on this right here.  O.K., that C#-E-G is not a half-diminished chord, it is a regular diminished chord.  In order for a chord to be half-diminished u need a b7 on top of the diminished chord.  So, a C# half-dim chord would be:  C#-E-G-B

Now, the other thing is a dominant chord DOES NOT resolve to IV, it resloves to IV OF THE CHORD.  So, a secondary dominant works the same way as the true dominant.  The only difference is what degree ur forming a dominant chord on.  The true dominant is formed of V.  A dominant formed off any other scale degree is a secondary dominant.  They both peform the same function though.

[Fenix]

Request granted. Although, T-Block does have a point.

I caught you man. I KNEW you were a mod.

[sjonathan02]

I caught you man. I KNEW you were a mod.

 

You are one of the funniest cats on here, dude. Real Talk. 

[Fenix]

Well now that i know, i suppose groveling and floor-scraping is in order.

[musallio]

You are one of the funniest cats on here, dude. Real Talk. 

4 sho

I caught you man. I KNEW you were a mod.

Yeah, I always wondered why this dude was always online whenever I logged in..of course it clicked early that some characters who've camped here are mods phew, for once I seem to  be alone here..yipee, no disputed statements from my side 4 once

[Chukme]

Hello friends. Am new here & am also a beginner. Please can some one direct me to where all one needs to know about playing the piano is treated step by step? Cus i don't really understand these posts. They seem advanced for me. I mean a place where i can learn the basic rudiments of piano theoritically and practically from the scratch..

[musallio]

Hello friends. Am new here & am also a beginner. Please can some one direct me to where all one needs to know about playing the piano is treated step by step? Cus i don't really understand these posts. They seem advanced for me. I mean a place where i can learn the basic rudiments of piano theoritically and practically from the scratch..

Hi Chukme,

Welcome to LGM.

Spend the next month here:


http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php/topic,42768.0.html

http://www.learngospelmusic.com/forums/index.php?board=47.0


All the best with your learning. If you are stuck, ask questions and the guys will gladly help